ARCHER & ARMSTRONG 5 Discussion

[Keith]

Think I agree with several points already made on this dicussion. While I am absolutely on-board with Gilad considered a force of nature in this universe, I did feel that he was portrayed a bit irrational and heavy handed. I'm trusting in FVL to further explore his character over the next few issues, and hoping a series won't be too far behind!

And loved the power display from the Geomancer! Not only communicating with the elements, but able to coerce them, as well? Way stronger than Geoff or Clay McHenry ever displayed!

[BugsySig]

Think I agree with several points already made on this dicussion. While I am absolutely on-board with Gilad considered a force of nature in this universe, I did feel that he was portrayed a bit irrational and heavy handed. I'm trusting in FVL to further explore his character over the next few issues, and hoping a series won't be too far behind!

And loved the power display from the Geomancer! Not only communicating with the elements, but able to coerce them, as well? Way stronger than Geoff or Clay McHenry ever displayed!

As I think back about 5 months, many people hated how Archer and Armstrong were written/portrayed/characterized. By issue 4 most of those concerns had been quelled. Hopefully the same will be true for Gilad.

[Dallow Spicer1]

A&A continues to be 'ok'. Some interesting themes throughout the series but watered down with the attempts at comedy detracts from the overall enjoyment. I was kind of ok with EW's intro but you couldn't sustain that type of characterization with a solo book.

Maybe it's because this is my least favourite VEI book that small things annoy me, for example, first page they're in India, Armstrong's wearing gloves, trench coat, waistcoat (type thingy) and hoodie yet Archer wears a t-shirt!...is it hot or cold weather? This is just rigid character design (ie what outfits they wear) at the expense of logic and attention to detail! Steady 2.5 out of 5 but could be so much better!

[dornwolf]

Think I agree with several points already made on this dicussion. While I am absolutely on-board with Gilad considered a force of nature in this universe, I did feel that he was portrayed a bit irrational and heavy handed. I'm trusting in FVL to further explore his character over the next few issues, and hoping a series won't be too far behind!

And loved the power display from the Geomancer! Not only communicating with the elements, but able to coerce them, as well? Way stronger than Geoff or Clay McHenry ever displayed!

As I think back about 5 months, many people hated how Archer and Armstrong were written/portrayed/characterized. By issue 4 most of those concerns had been quelled. Hopefully the same will be true for Gilad.

For me it was really the plot and some of the over topness. I actually think Gilad was a lot calmer than he could've been. When you think about it he was brought back to life by the sacrafice of millions and took on the job of being literally Earths protector hell I'm amazed he didn't Hulk a bit more.

[jmatt]

Anyone notice that Gilad's first official appearance (not including Boon teasers) in the VEI universe is a picture of his Fist?

Like Lupacchino, like Henry more.

Not crazy about a mindless Gilad who wants to kill Archer because he has the same last name as his parents. I also don't like that he seemingly has no love for his brother.

And hey, can we get some more editorial eyeballs on these books? In one panel Aram calls the Chinese geomancer "Shang" instead of "Sheng".

I'm a little confused as to what and where that exploding canister came from, I'm guessing Aram had it on him.

Still like the book and FVL's writing.

[erwinrafael]

Just shows that the VF board members is not really representative of the current comic book reading public. Heck, this is the only VEI title to get a nom as best new comic series in IGN (voted for Hawkeye) but reading this board gives the impression that this is the worst series ever.

[jmatt]

Just shows that the VF board members is not really representative of the current comic book reading public. Heck, this is the only VEI title to get a nom as best new comic series in IGN (voted for Hawkeye) but reading this board gives the impression that this is the worst series ever.

Well, that's a difficulty with a relaunch. Former readers have preconceptions about who and what everything is supposed to be.

[greg]

Anyone notice that Gilad's first official appearance (not including Boon teasers) in the VEI universe is a picture of his Fist?

A Fist punching through Steel.

[pixierosa]

I like the idea too that Gilad is feeling the emotions of the earth (being unable to actually speak with it like a Geomancer) and that this is part of the reason why he reacts in beast mode. We will see further development of him. I like this series quite a bit. I prefer it when it is a bit more serious, but all in all, it's good fun.

I think one of the flaws that made this issue my least fav in the A&A line thus far was the focus of the story. It's basically a book dedicated to A&A being on the run. It does solidify their partnership and there were a few nice personal revelation moments and some insight to the geomancer book, but a chase scene as the focal story doesn't provide much meat.

Back to Gilad. Think about how he and Armstrong gained their immortality. It wasn't something they chose, and they have to live with those consequences. How would you react to gaining immortality and the expense of murdering millions? Could you function normally? (maybe if you were Darque) Couple that with outliving everyone you love, watching them grow old, sick and die - and knowing that you will always outlive whomever you care for - unchanging in a world that is forever moving forward without you. Might *SQUEE* with your head a bit.

So how do they react? Gilad was chosen to be the earth's champion. He falls back on what comes naturally to him - warrior skills. Fighting campaigns. Blocking out emotions other than those that benefit a soldier. Armstrong wasn't given a mission. He's a different personality from his brother and we see him embrace - sometimes too fully - those things that he appreciates, such as booze, art, etc. He feels the shame of those millions of deaths and mourns the loss of loved ones. He copes by blotting it out with alcohol or trying to live it up as hedonistically as possible. Don't think it's working for him, but up until his recent meeting with Archer, he probably was mostly existing rather than living.

Of course to a warrior, these things seem trivial and wasteful. They are never going to agree. Armstrong's attempts at responsibility will never be enough in Gilad's eyes. Gilad will never seem human enough to Armstrong. Their relationship, how they change each other, will be a good long-term storyline.

[chriskay99]

Just shows that the VF board members is not really representative of the current comic book reading public. Heck, this is the only VEI title to get a nom as best new comic series in IGN (voted for Hawkeye) but reading this board gives the impression that this is the worst series ever.

Well, that's a difficulty with a relaunch. Former readers have preconceptions about who and what everything is supposed to be.

I think I have to agree. I read the original A&A before the VEI relaunch and didn't really get into it. I know I'm probably in the incredible minority since it seems BWS' run was quite regarded, but it just didn't do anything for me. I think I stopped reading the original A&A somewhere around issue 22 or so.

I had zero expectations and was frankly, kind of surprised it was one of the main titles announced for the relaunch. All that said, I have to say I've really enjoyed it thus far. It may even be my second favorite Valiant book.

[bribri]

Just shows that the VF board members is not really representative of the current comic book reading public. Heck, this is the only VEI title to get a nom as best new comic series in IGN (voted for Hawkeye) but reading this board gives the impression that this is the worst series ever.

Well, that's a difficulty with a relaunch. Former readers have preconceptions about who and what everything is supposed to be.

I think I have to agree. I read the original A&A before the VEI relaunch and didn't really get into it. I know I'm probably in the incredible minority since it seems BWS' run was quite regarded, but it just didn't do anything for me. I think I stopped reading the original A&A somewhere around issue 22 or so.

I had zero expectations and was frankly, kind of surprised it was one of the main titles announced for the relaunch. All that said, I have to say I've really enjoyed it thus far. It may even be my second favorite Valiant book.

I fell in love with Valiant 20 years ago, and I'm happy to hear comments like this. It's a great perspective. Thank you.

The new Valiant is fresh, perhaps more so than the lifers were prepared.

[BugsySig]

Just shows that the VF board members is not really representative of the current comic book reading public. Heck, this is the only VEI title to get a nom as best new comic series in IGN (voted for Hawkeye) but reading this board gives the impression that this is the worst series ever.

Well, that's a difficulty with a relaunch. Former readers have preconceptions about who and what everything is supposed to be.

I think I have to agree. I read the original A&A before the VEI relaunch and didn't really get into it. I know I'm probably in the incredible minority since it seems BWS' run was quite regarded, but it just didn't do anything for me. I think I stopped reading the original A&A somewhere around issue 22 or so.

I had zero expectations and was frankly, kind of surprised it was one of the main titles announced for the relaunch. All that said, I have to say I've really enjoyed it thus far. It may even be my second favorite Valiant book.

I was exactly the same. The book never interested me when it was first out in the 90s. I bought the hardcover trade to prep for the relaunch, and while it was an enjoyable read with very good characterization, I thought it was kinda scattered and lacking in plot.

The first issue, especially, seemed very contrived to bring the two together as Archer just agrees to go assassinate some guy some other guy says is Satan. The biggest plot point about Archers parents was removed not halfway through the issue. Then they're on an island with a goddess and a dinosaur? Where were all the "world outside your window" people then?

I find the new series much more enjoyable as an overall read.

[Elveen]

Anyone notice that Gilad's first official appearance (not including Boon teasers) in the VEI universe is a picture of his Fist?

.

Just a small point, Gilly's 1st app is XO #1 He is in the battle scene.

[grendeljd]

Well, I've read issue #5 a couple times now before posting my thoughts...

On my first read through [admittedly rushed as I was very excited for it], my impression was that it was a bit of a let down from the excellence of #4. I liked the art, I think Emanuela is a great choice to pass the job from Clayton Henry. Her style is slightly more cartoonish in places, but overall she draws great facial expressions, figure gesture & has some fantastic panel compositions - I particularly liked the third panel on page 6, after the geomancer speaks to the wall and the ring of 'magic' symbols appear before the wall opens up. While not as detailed as Henry's art, there is a stylistic link between them that works, for me anyway.

I also enjoyed the humour in the issue. So many funny lines - '<You are very fat. Double fare>' & the short scene with 'You got that right. Why, I know this one-legged broad in Amsterdam that specializes in-'

Nothing stood out as a major flaw to me, it was an entertaining read, but the tone of the book may have been almost too light overall. I didn't have any particular expectations in mind [always a bad idea], but perhaps I was spoiled by how great #4 was. Or perhaps, as others have said here, I was expecting something else for the debut of EW [I know, I JUST said I didn't have expectations, but maybe I sorta did ]. Not sure what I wanted to see, but that was my overall first impression.

After a second read through, and having read other peoples opinions here plus a few reviews online - I have to say it was a better read.

The plot is basic & makes sense to me, and I really don't mind that for now it is a basic plot. We are introduced to Gilad as a 'tool of the earth' - he is driven to avenge the death of the previous Geomancer, and on the surface this is simple, yet it holds untapped possibilities. How much of his behaviour exhibited is his own, and how much is it a result of his connection to Gaia [earth]? He may be on over-ride as a defence mechanism triggered by the earth to ensure whatever took out the geomancer won't be able to do it again to the next one. So with that in mind, even if he hear's logic &/or the truth from Archer, he may simply be compelled to kill him anyway. We just don't know at this point. I am intrigued by how Gilad will flesh out from here, how much the connection to the Geomancer & the earth will be explored, how his character will grow... but for now after only a single issue, its an action packed debut that was all around fun and doesn't need to be more than that.

I like the idea too that Gilad is feeling the emotions of the earth (being unable to actually speak with it like a Geomancer) and that this is part of the reason why he reacts in beast mode. We will see further development of him. I like this series quite a bit. I prefer it when it is a bit more serious, but all in all, it's good fun.

I think one of the flaws that made this issue my least fav in the A&A line thus far was the focus of the story. It's basically a book dedicated to A&A being on the run. It does solidify their partnership and there were a few nice personal revelation moments and some insight to the geomancer book, but a chase scene as the focal story doesn't provide much meat.

Back to Gilad. Think about how he and Armstrong gained their immortality. It wasn't something they chose, and they have to live with those consequences. How would you react to gaining immortality and the expense of murdering millions? Could you function normally? (maybe if you were Darque) Couple that with outliving everyone you love, watching them grow old, sick and die - and knowing that you will always outlive whomever you care for - unchanging in a world that is forever moving forward without you. Might *SQUEE* with your head a bit.

So how do they react? Gilad was chosen to be the earth's champion. He falls back on what comes naturally to him - warrior skills. Fighting campaigns. Blocking out emotions other than those that benefit a soldier. Armstrong wasn't given a mission. He's a different personality from his brother and we see him embrace - sometimes too fully - those things that he appreciates, such as booze, art, etc. He feels the shame of those millions of deaths and mourns the loss of loved ones. He copes by blotting it out with alcohol or trying to live it up as hedonistically as possible. Don't think it's working for him, but up until his recent meeting with Archer, he probably was mostly existing rather than living.

Of course to a warrior, these things seem trivial and wasteful. They are never going to agree. Armstrong's attempts at responsibility will never be enough in Gilad's eyes. Gilad will never seem human enough to Armstrong. Their relationship, how they change each other, will be a good long-term storyline.

Great analysis, pixie! I agree, there is great long-term potential, and I think we'll see much more of this character development in the future. There may not have been much 'meat' to the issue, but I don't think it needed more, provided the story arc as a whole delivers the goods.

I also thought I wouldn't like Gilad's 'costume' much, and while I still think he would wear something more urban than a onesie, I did like the look of it in action, as drawn by Emanuela.

Did anyone else notice the tattoo of the Phoenix on the neck of the sorcerer Xu Fu? I know it has already been suggested here, but this detail also leads me to believe he may have been the immortal enemy, although there was a close-up of his face once and he did not appear to have the dual eye-colour happening...

Anyways, I give the issue a because it passes my acid test [I read it more than once, and still want to re-read it again].

[BugsySig]

Did anyone else notice the tattoo of the Phoenix on the neck of the sorcerer Xu Fu? I know it has already been suggested here, but this detail also leads me to believe he may have been the immortal enemy, although there was a close-up of his face once and he did not appear to have the dual eye-colour happening...

Anyways, I give the issue a because it passes my acid test [I read it more than once, and still want to re-read it again].

I noticed the tat and immediately thought the same. I believe the original version was a general, but in this case an "illusionist" works as the first incarnation of the Immortal Enemy.

FVL has said the Immortal Enemy is the champion of the Null...an apocalypse cult that believes in destroying the universe itself and is the counter to the Geomancers. Xu Fu's final words were something like "Nothing is Forever"...a comment with dual meanings for someone who believes in the Null, or "nothing."

[Blood of Heroes]

I know it has already been suggested here, but this detail also leads me to believe he may have been the immortal enemy, although there was a close-up of his face once and he did not appear to have the dual eye-colour happening...

I was looking for the same thing.

[Phoenix8008]

I know it has already been suggested here, but this detail also leads me to believe he may have been the immortal enemy, although there was a close-up of his face once and he did not appear to have the dual eye-colour happening...

I was looking for the same thing.

So maybe this time around, the phoenix tattoo is the identifying mark, not the eyes? That would make it tougher on Gilad to locate and deal with him throughout time, unless the tattoo is always in the same place, then it would be easier to check for.

[Chiclo]

I know it has already been suggested here, but this detail also leads me to believe he may have been the immortal enemy, although there was a close-up of his face once and he did not appear to have the dual eye-colour happening...

I was looking for the same thing.

Heterochromia.

[grendeljd]

I know it has already been suggested here, but this detail also leads me to believe he may have been the immortal enemy, although there was a close-up of his face once and he did not appear to have the dual eye-colour happening...

I was looking for the same thing.

Heterochromia.

That's Heterochromia Iridum to you, bub.

[jmatt]

Anyone notice that Gilad's first official appearance (not including Boon teasers) in the VEI universe is a picture of his Fist?

.

Just a small point, Gilly's 1st app is XO #1 He is in the battle scene.

Not this again. Even if Dino said its true, the character is not referred to as Gilad nor does he do anything that would indicate who he is. If Stan Lee grabbed any random comic book pre Amazing Fantasy 15 and said "See this guy delivering newspapers in the background of this panel? That's Peter Parker!" it would not make it the first appearance of the character in the eyes of readers.

If at some point we revisit that time period and there's more meat added to the debate, I'll be happy to consider it. Heck, I think the Boon storyline promo has a better claim to his first appearance than anonymous guy #47 in a panel of X-O #1.

[jmatt]

Did anyone else notice the tattoo of the Phoenix on the neck of the sorcerer Xu Fu?

If he turns out to be an ongoing character like Immortal Enemy, I pray they never refer to him some other moniker. Xu Fu is an awesome name for a comic book character.

[hawkeyeps]

Anyone notice that Gilad's first official appearance (not including Boon teasers) in the VEI universe is a picture of his Fist?

.

Just a small point, Gilly's 1st app is XO #1 He is in the battle scene.

Not this again. Even if Dino said its true, the character is not referred to as Gilad nor does he do anything that would indicate who he is. If Stan Lee grabbed any random comic book pre Amazing Fantasy 15 and said "See this guy delivering newspapers in the background of this panel? That's Peter Parker!" it would not make it the first appearance of the character in the eyes of readers.

If at some point we revisit that time period and there's more meat added to the debate, I'll be happy to consider it. Heck, I think the Boon storyline promo has a better claim to his first appearance than anonymous guy #47 in a panel of X-O #1.

One thing about his appearnce in XO #1 is you can clearly see his trademark triple scars across his face. There has to be story behind that, why did those scars never fully heal? Gilad has had those scars for a long damn time.

[BugsySig]

Anyone notice that Gilad's first official appearance (not including Boon teasers) in the VEI universe is a picture of his Fist?

.

Just a small point, Gilly's 1st app is XO #1 He is in the battle scene.

Not this again. Even if Dino said its true, the character is not referred to as Gilad nor does he do anything that would indicate who he is. If Stan Lee grabbed any random comic book pre Amazing Fantasy 15 and said "See this guy delivering newspapers in the background of this panel? That's Peter Parker!" it would not make it the first appearance of the character in the eyes of readers.

If at some point we revisit that time period and there's more meat added to the debate, I'll be happy to consider it. Heck, I think the Boon storyline promo has a better claim to his first appearance than anonymous guy #47 in a panel of X-O #1.

One thing about his appearnce in XO #1 is you can clearly see his trademark triple scars across his face. There has to be story behind that, why did those scars never fully heal? Gilad has had those scars for a long damn time.

Except the scars are going in the opposite direction...more fodder that it isn't necessarily Gilad.

[hawkeyeps]

Here is another interesting thought- shortly after Aric was abducted, the Visigoths went on to sack Rome and Gilad just happened to be fighting for the Visgoths at the time

It would be cool if Aric met Gilad in the modern world and they remembered each other. Aric would be like "Man I hated those Roman *SQUEE*" and Gilad would be like "Don't sweat it, here's what we did to them after you were abducted"

I can see Aric and Gilad being very good friends in this version of VALIANT.

[hawkeyeps]

Anyone notice that Gilad's first official appearance (not including Boon teasers) in the VEI universe is a picture of his Fist?

.

Just a small point, Gilly's 1st app is XO #1 He is in the battle scene.

Not this again. Even if Dino said its true, the character is not referred to as Gilad nor does he do anything that would indicate who he is. If Stan Lee grabbed any random comic book pre Amazing Fantasy 15 and said "See this guy delivering newspapers in the background of this panel? That's Peter Parker!" it would not make it the first appearance of the character in the eyes of readers.

If at some point we revisit that time period and there's more meat added to the debate, I'll be happy to consider it. Heck, I think the Boon storyline promo has a better claim to his first appearance than anonymous guy #47 in a panel of X-O #1.

One thing about his appearnce in XO #1 is you can clearly see his trademark triple scars across his face. There has to be story behind that, why did those scars never fully heal? Gilad has had those scars for a long damn time.

Except the scars are going in the opposite direction...more fodder that it isn't necessarily Gilad.

Oh Dude! You're right they were on the right side in XO 1 then the left in A&A 5, now I have to explain this away like the last page of Bloodshot 4 with the reversed speech bubbles

Thanks Bugs