VH-2 Reprints?

[ManofTheAtom]

What he thinks are gods could just as easily be voices in his head. Or aliens. Or personal embodiments of elemental forces.

I started a thread a year or so ago about the logical assumptions behind Clarke’s Third Law. The law does not rule out magic or say that it cannot exist, only offer a possible alternative. It also assumes a common understanding of what magic is and what it looks like, that we might have something to compare the advanced technology against - if anything, Clarke’s third law suggests that magic would have to exist for us to have such a common understanding of what it might look like.

I don't disagree with any of that. My only objection is to using "Clarke's third law" as a way to explain fantasy elements in comics that its never mentioned in. Like Resurgence for example.

Once again, The VALIANTS already established that Silk is using another Boon to stop people from dying. That's technology.

Yup, just like the Cosmic Cube is technology as well.

Correct. The Cosmic Cube is science fiction. Not magic or fantasy.

[Ryan]

What he thinks are gods could just as easily be voices in his head. Or aliens. Or personal embodiments of elemental forces.

I started a thread a year or so ago about the logical assumptions behind Clarke’s Third Law. The law does not rule out magic or say that it cannot exist, only offer a possible alternative. It also assumes a common understanding of what magic is and what it looks like, that we might have something to compare the advanced technology against - if anything, Clarke’s third law suggests that magic would have to exist for us to have such a common understanding of what it might look like.

I don't disagree with any of that. My only objection is to using "Clarke's third law" as a way to explain fantasy elements in comics that its never mentioned in. Like Resurgence for example.

Once again, The VALIANTS already established that Silk is using another Boon to stop people from dying. That's technology.

Yup, just like the Cosmic Cube is technology as well.

Correct. The Cosmic Cube is science fiction. Not magic or fantasy.

Cool so Vh2 is valid then, glad we got that cleared up after all these decades.

[ManofTheAtom]

What he thinks are gods could just as easily be voices in his head. Or aliens. Or personal embodiments of elemental forces.

I started a thread a year or so ago about the logical assumptions behind Clarke’s Third Law. The law does not rule out magic or say that it cannot exist, only offer a possible alternative. It also assumes a common understanding of what magic is and what it looks like, that we might have something to compare the advanced technology against - if anything, Clarke’s third law suggests that magic would have to exist for us to have such a common understanding of what it might look like.

I don't disagree with any of that. My only objection is to using "Clarke's third law" as a way to explain fantasy elements in comics that its never mentioned in. Like Resurgence for example.

Once again, The VALIANTS already established that Silk is using another Boon to stop people from dying. That's technology.

Yup, just like the Cosmic Cube is technology as well.

Correct. The Cosmic Cube is science fiction. Not magic or fantasy.

Cool so Vh2 is valid then, glad we got that cleared up after all these decades.

No, because the Marvel Universe was previously established as being fictional in the VALIANT Universe.

[Ryan]

I don't disagree with any of that. My only objection is to using "Clarke's third law" as a way to explain fantasy elements in comics that its never mentioned in. Like Resurgence for example.

Once again, The VALIANTS already established that Silk is using another Boon to stop people from dying. That's technology.

Yup, just like the Cosmic Cube is technology as well.

Correct. The Cosmic Cube is science fiction. Not magic or fantasy.

Cool so Vh2 is valid then, glad we got that cleared up after all these decades.

No, because the Marvel Universe was previously established as being fictional in the VALIANT Universe.

Yeah but those things can change, as has been proven. Dr Solar, Turok, and Magnus were also once fictional in the Valiant universe, and then became real. Then the same thing happened with Predators and Iron Man, Image characters etc.

[ManofTheAtom]

Once again, The VALIANTS already established that Silk is using another Boon to stop people from dying. That's technology.

Yup, just like the Cosmic Cube is technology as well.

Correct. The Cosmic Cube is science fiction. Not magic or fantasy.

Cool so Vh2 is valid then, glad we got that cleared up after all these decades.

No, because the Marvel Universe was previously established as being fictional in the VALIANT Universe.

Yeah but those things can change, as has been proven. Dr Solar, Turok, and Magnus were also once fictional in the Valiant universe, and then became real. Then the same thing happened with Predators and Iron Man, Image characters etc.

Magnus, Turok, and Predators were never established as being fictional at VALIANT. The only one that was is Dr. Solar, and that clearly was on purpose by Phil's subconscious.

[Ryan]

Magnus, Turok, and Predators were never established as being fictional at VALIANT. The only one that was is Dr. Solar, and that clearly was on purpose by Phil's subconscious.

Yes only Solar was explicitly established as fiction, but that's all that's needed. Gold Key comics existing in Valiant directly implies that other GK characters were also fiction, and that the VU had the same fiction as we had in this world. It would need to be established or explained why certain specific fictional characters didn't exist in Valiant, not the other way around.

[ManofTheAtom]

Magnus, Turok, and Predators were never established as being fictional at VALIANT. The only one that was is Dr. Solar, and that clearly was on purpose by Phil's subconscious.

Yes only Solar was explicitly established as fiction, but that's all that's needed. Gold Key comics existing in Valiant directly implies that other GK characters were also fiction, and that the VU had the same fiction as we had in this world. It would need to be established or explained why certain specific fictional characters didn't exist in Valiant, not the other way around.

That's an assumption with no evidence to back it up, though. All evidence proves the contrary, that Magnus and Turok were both real.

[Chiclo]

What he thinks are gods could just as easily be voices in his head. Or aliens. Or personal embodiments of elemental forces.

I started a thread a year or so ago about the logical assumptions behind Clarke’s Third Law. The law does not rule out magic or say that it cannot exist, only offer a possible alternative. It also assumes a common understanding of what magic is and what it looks like, that we might have something to compare the advanced technology against - if anything, Clarke’s third law suggests that magic would have to exist for us to have such a common understanding of what it might look like.

I don't disagree with any of that. My only objection is to using "Clarke's third law" as a way to explain fantasy elements in comics that its never mentioned in. Like Resurgence for example.

Once again, The VALIANTS already established that Silk is using another Boon to stop people from dying. That's technology.

Yup, just like the Cosmic Cube is technology as well.

Correct. The Cosmic Cube is science fiction. Not magic or fantasy.

The Cosmic Cube sure feels more like fantasy than sci-fi to me. Very mystical.

[Ryan]

The Cosmic Cube sure feels more like fantasy than sci-fi to me. Very mystical.

100%. But don't tell this guy, he thinks if you call something 'fantasy' it means you're talking about hobbits.

[ManofTheAtom]

What he thinks are gods could just as easily be voices in his head. Or aliens. Or personal embodiments of elemental forces.

I started a thread a year or so ago about the logical assumptions behind Clarke’s Third Law. The law does not rule out magic or say that it cannot exist, only offer a possible alternative. It also assumes a common understanding of what magic is and what it looks like, that we might have something to compare the advanced technology against - if anything, Clarke’s third law suggests that magic would have to exist for us to have such a common understanding of what it might look like.

I don't disagree with any of that. My only objection is to using "Clarke's third law" as a way to explain fantasy elements in comics that its never mentioned in. Like Resurgence for example.

Once again, The VALIANTS already established that Silk is using another Boon to stop people from dying. That's technology.

Yup, just like the Cosmic Cube is technology as well.

Correct. The Cosmic Cube is science fiction. Not magic or fantasy.

The Cosmic Cube sure feels more like fantasy than sci-fi to me. Very mystical.

AIM created the Cosmic Cube, therefore that makes it an advanced form of technology. No different than Seleski's reactor.

[Chiclo]

I don't disagree with any of that. My only objection is to using "Clarke's third law" as a way to explain fantasy elements in comics that its never mentioned in. Like Resurgence for example.

Once again, The VALIANTS already established that Silk is using another Boon to stop people from dying. That's technology.

Yup, just like the Cosmic Cube is technology as well.

Correct. The Cosmic Cube is science fiction. Not magic or fantasy.

The Cosmic Cube sure feels more like fantasy than sci-fi to me. Very mystical.

AIM created the Cosmic Cube, therefore that makes it an advanced form of technology. No different than Seleski's reactor.

They are magic wish granting machines. You can put the magicians in lab coats and glasses and give them ID badges but there is still more of alchemy than chemistry in both the cube and the Edgewater reactor. This is a magical, non-scientific element.

[ManofTheAtom]

Once again, The VALIANTS already established that Silk is using another Boon to stop people from dying. That's technology.

Yup, just like the Cosmic Cube is technology as well.

Correct. The Cosmic Cube is science fiction. Not magic or fantasy.

The Cosmic Cube sure feels more like fantasy than sci-fi to me. Very mystical.

AIM created the Cosmic Cube, therefore that makes it an advanced form of technology. No different than Seleski's reactor.

They are magic wish granting machines. You can put the magicians in lab coats and glasses and give them ID badges but there is still more of alchemy than chemistry in both the cube and the Edgewater reactor. This is a magical, non-scientific element.

The Cosmic Cubes are actually containment devices created by various civilizations throughout the Marvel Universe at various times. Examples including the Skrulls (creators of the Cube that would eventually evolve into the Shaper of Worlds), and various other, unnamed civilizations (whose Cubes were gathered/stolen by unknown means by the Magus in the Infinity War story arc and the Goddess in the Infinity Crusade story arc). These matrices—which may or may not actually be shaped like a Cube—are suffused with reality-warping energies of unknown composition that comes from the realm of the Beyonders.

Not magic.

Beyonders don't use magic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_Cube

[Chiclo]

"Reality warping energies of unknown nature."

That sure doesn't read like science. Science describes things with maths. Magic harnesses energies of an unknown nature.

[ManofTheAtom]

"Reality warping energies of unknown nature."

That sure doesn't read like science. Science describes things with maths. Magic harnesses energies of an unknown nature.

It's science fiction.

You don't think VEI's Divinity is magical, do you? He works off the same basic principle as Beyonders and Solar.

What Solar did was not magic.

All that the Big Bang did was release energy into the universe which then "warped reality" to create planets, stars, moons, life, etc.

We could boil down the energy that powers the Beyonders and Cubes to be pure energy released by the Big Bang that is still around and hasn't been expended.

[Chiclo]

"Reality warping energies of unknown nature."

That sure doesn't read like science. Science describes things with maths. Magic harnesses energies of an unknown nature.

It's science fiction.

You don't think VEI's Divinity is magical, do you? He works off the same basic principle as Beyonders and Solar.

What Solar did was not magic.

All that the Big Bang did was release energy into the universe which then "warped reality" to create planets, stars, moons, life, etc.

We could boil down the energy that powers the Beyonders and Cubes to be pure energy released by the Big Bang that is still around and hasn't been expended.

What Solar did was not magical. His origin, however, did involve a magical wish granting machine.

Big Bang... warping reality... stop. You are just stringing together science-y sounding words without any understanding of them. You do this a lot. This is why your explanations only work for so long.

We could do lots of things. We could boil down the energy that powers Beyonders and Cosmic Cubes to wishes made by children on stars. I mean, the cubes already work on the thoughts of its holder. Harnessing them mechanically, as Thanos once observed, is a bit like taking a dinosaur on a walk with a leash.

Maybe what Solar did is magical? He reshaped the world around him with his thoughts. That is very mystical, very much more in the realm of fantasy rather than sci-fi. Are Magneto's powers more sci-fi by nature than Solar?

[ManofTheAtom]

What Solar did was not magical. His origin, however, did involve a magical wish granting machine.

It wasn't a literal wish granting machine. That is just what he called it.

It be like a primitive man calling a camera a "soul stealing machine".

We could do lots of things. We could boil down the energy that powers Beyonders and Cosmic Cubes to wishes made by children on stars.

You really believe the same writer of Secret Wars and Solar would do that?

[Chiclo]

What Solar did was not magical. His origin, however, did involve a magical wish granting machine.

It wasn't a literal wish granting machine. That is just what he called it.

It be like a primitive man calling a camera a "soul stealing machine".

We could do lots of things. We could boil down the energy that powers Beyonders and Cosmic Cubes to wishes made by children on stars.

You really believe the same writer of Secret Wars and Solar would do that?

If it suited the story, yes.

[ManofTheAtom]

What Solar did was not magical. His origin, however, did involve a magical wish granting machine.

It wasn't a literal wish granting machine. That is just what he called it.

It be like a primitive man calling a camera a "soul stealing machine".

We could do lots of things. We could boil down the energy that powers Beyonders and Cosmic Cubes to wishes made by children on stars.

You really believe the same writer of Secret Wars and Solar would do that?

If it suited the story, yes.

Magic has nothing to do with the Beyonders, though.

[Chiclo]

What Solar did was not magical. His origin, however, did involve a magical wish granting machine.

It wasn't a literal wish granting machine. That is just what he called it.

It be like a primitive man calling a camera a "soul stealing machine".

We could do lots of things. We could boil down the energy that powers Beyonders and Cosmic Cubes to wishes made by children on stars.

You really believe the same writer of Secret Wars and Solar would do that?

If it suited the story, yes.

Magic has nothing to do with the Beyonders, though.

The Beyonder is the kind of being that a magic character might try to invoke. What makes the Beyonder so different from Cytorrak or the dread Dormammu? Willingness to bargain and share?

[ManofTheAtom]

What Solar did was not magical. His origin, however, did involve a magical wish granting machine.

It wasn't a literal wish granting machine. That is just what he called it.

It be like a primitive man calling a camera a "soul stealing machine".

We could do lots of things. We could boil down the energy that powers Beyonders and Cosmic Cubes to wishes made by children on stars.

You really believe the same writer of Secret Wars and Solar would do that?

If it suited the story, yes.

Magic has nothing to do with the Beyonders, though.

The Beyonder is the kind of being that a magic character might try to invoke. What makes the Beyonder so different from Cytorrak or the dread Dormammu? Willingness to bargain and share?

Conceptually they are nothing alike.

Beyonders are no more magical in nature than Celestials or Eternals.

[Chiclo]

What Solar did was not magical. His origin, however, did involve a magical wish granting machine.

It wasn't a literal wish granting machine. That is just what he called it.

It be like a primitive man calling a camera a "soul stealing machine".

We could do lots of things. We could boil down the energy that powers Beyonders and Cosmic Cubes to wishes made by children on stars.

You really believe the same writer of Secret Wars and Solar would do that?

If it suited the story, yes.

Magic has nothing to do with the Beyonders, though.

The Beyonder is the kind of being that a magic character might try to invoke. What makes the Beyonder so different from Cytorrak or the dread Dormammu? Willingness to bargain and share?

Conceptually they are nothing alike.

Beyonders are no more magical in nature than Celestials or Eternals.

Aren’t the Asgardians and Olympians offshoots of the Eternals?

The Celestials act like gods of old, embodying elements and shepherding and judging lesser beings, namely humans like us. Very mystical.

[ManofTheAtom]

It wasn't a literal wish granting machine. That is just what he called it.

It be like a primitive man calling a camera a "soul stealing machine".



You really believe the same writer of Secret Wars and Solar would do that?

If it suited the story, yes.

Magic has nothing to do with the Beyonders, though.

The Beyonder is the kind of being that a magic character might try to invoke. What makes the Beyonder so different from Cytorrak or the dread Dormammu? Willingness to bargain and share?

Conceptually they are nothing alike.

Beyonders are no more magical in nature than Celestials or Eternals.

Aren’t the Asgardians and Olympians offshoots of the Eternals?

The Celestials act like gods of old, embodying elements and shepherding and judging lesser beings, namely humans like us. Very mystical.

The Celestials are perceived as the Gods of old. That doesn't mean they're magical.

If you seek magic, read Dr. Strange.

[Chiclo]

If it suited the story, yes.

Magic has nothing to do with the Beyonders, though.

The Beyonder is the kind of being that a magic character might try to invoke. What makes the Beyonder so different from Cytorrak or the dread Dormammu? Willingness to bargain and share?

Conceptually they are nothing alike.

Beyonders are no more magical in nature than Celestials or Eternals.

Aren’t the Asgardians and Olympians offshoots of the Eternals?

The Celestials act like gods of old, embodying elements and shepherding and judging lesser beings, namely humans like us. Very mystical.

The Celestials are perceived as the Gods of old. That doesn't mean they're magical.

If you seek magic, read Dr. Strange.

I am more of a Shadowman guy.

[Ryan]

If you seek magic, read Dr. Strange.

You've obviously never read the original run of Dr. Strange. I don't think there's been anyone in comics more against magical thinking than Ditko. There may be fantastical 'mystical arts', but its all very consistent and credibly handled.

I am more of a Shadowman guy.

A man of distinguished tastes.

[ManofTheAtom]

You've obviously never read the original run of Dr. Strange. I don't think there's been anyone in comics more against magical thinking than Ditko. There may be fantastical 'mystical arts', but its all very consistent and credibly handled.

Nope.

Sounds cool.