Got my CGC's back from the Chi con:

[IMJ]

and I've gotta say I'm shocked. Now before I get into this, I completely concede to the fact that CGC is an expert service and has strategies and a method which they use to maintain a degree of consistency. That and they have a better use of the contrast effect between comics than I have (due to their volume of scrutinized books).

So, that being said, here are the grades I landed, note that some of this is funny because I don't put CGC books in my collection unless they are 9.0 or higher. Additionally, I prescreened and I will tell you guys what grades I perceived these as being (or being close to, I'll allow an SD of .2 which I think is reasonable).

Finally before I share these grades note that in the field of Psychology, I am surrounded by things where you are taught to think critically and with methodology using linear logic and reasoning for prediction. This does NOT make me an expert grader, but I DO have that frame of mind going for me. This allows me to not "will" the book into a better grade than it is. Below are the 7 books I had graded by CGC and submitted at the con. I have some more points to make about this, but I'll let the discussion wheel around a little bit before I do.

Iron Man V1 # 225 - 8.5 (I thought this would have been a 9.0 book. I concede to the fact though that these earlier moderns are sometimes hard to gauge because that was a weird period where the stock paper quality sometimes had a "recycled" hue to it. Otherwise, I thought this would be a higher VF+ than obviously CGC did).

Iron Man V1 #310 - 8.5 (this is funny because THIS book was one of the Marvels placed in a stock bag for the Animated Cel promotion. It was only removed from that bag due to my intentions for CGCing. There was no yellowing of the book apparent to me when I submitted it. However, I concede to the fact that just because a book is shipped in a polybag doesn't mean it's high grade. It looked higher than an 8.5 to me though, especially in comparison to other 9.0 CGC books that I own).

Iron Man V3 #28: 9.6 (I've gotta tell you guys about this one. I bought this book a few years back - new - from a place in Aurora IL called Galaxy Cards and Comics. They are OOB now. The woman who ran the store would take her books out of the Diamond Box and place them into bags and boards BEFORE she stocked and sold them. When I got this book, it's condition was SO pristine I didn't read it. It had the nicest, most square spine I'd ever seen and NO apparent defects with white, white pages. Of all the books I submitted, I thought this one would be the closest contender for a 9.9, and I thought it was a guaranteed 9.8. That being said please read on.)

Iron Man V4 #7 (Hitch B&W Alt Cover): 9.6 (Same situation as above, but from a store called Quintessential Comics, where Barry the owner, knew I wanted this variant and stashed the book for me the day of it's release. Ironically, it appeared flawless to me, although the spine corners at the top and bottom lacked the 90 degree perfection of the above book. THis is called the contrast effect, therefore standing on it's own, this book looked good. I don't know what else to stand on thinking about this grade, but I'd guess a 9.6 or 9.8 would have been accurate. This one falls into my standard deviation allowance.)

Ult IM 1, Techno Tony Cover: 9.8 (I knew this book would score high, but honestly with what I perceived to be a scuff on the cover I figured that this COULDNT possibly beat out the IM 28 I had submitted above. Yet it does and I can't explain it. Yes it's a good book, I guessed 9.6 with luck 9.8. Guess I got lucky and it falls within my SD allowance between myself and CGC).

New Avengers #1: 9.8, (I barely looked this one over. I bought it in a similar situation to my IM28 and the IM Hitch #7. I got a 9.8. I figured it was a 9.8. But I also figured this of my IM 28.)

And now the grand finale for this board:

Harbinger #1 with coupon: 9.2 (I can't explain this one. Of course I was praying for a 9.8, but I felt this would be 9.6 and most likely a 9.4. THe book isn't flawed. It just had a feel to it that when I saw it... it LOOKED good, but it didn't scream 9.8. This feeling may have been a combination of hearing about CGC's hard grading and then reading on these boards that a 9.8 Harby is a hard find. Between taking those two things to heart, this book just didn't feel like a super high grade, but I honestly would've thought 9.4, and maybe "willing" a 9.6 out of it. The fact though, that this book fell nearly 2 standard deviations from my prediction irritates me as much as the two 8.5 Iron Men.)[/

[greg]

Interesting results...

As I mentioned earlier, there was a member of this board
who checked dozens of copies of Harbinger #1, picking the five
books he believed were 9.8 candidates.

His CGC results were 1 in 9.8 and 4 in 9.4.

In other words, his opinion of 9.8 was overwhelmingly 9.4

From that standpoint, your opinion of 9.6 isn't completely surprising to be 9.2.

That's not to say that you can't grade, that's to say that there is something
ridiculously bad about the Harbinger #1 materials/construction/quality.

Here's the results of my submissions... (9.2 isn't uncommon)
http://www.valiantfans.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11848

[X-O HoboJoe]

That's not to say that you can't grade, that's to say that there is something
ridiculously bad about the Harbinger #1 materials/construction/quality.

This is borne out continuously by the results of Harby 1's subbed. That damn top staple is what always gets me.

[IMJ]

That's not to say that you can't grade, that's to say that there is something
ridiculously bad about the Harbinger #1 materials/construction/quality.

This is borne out continuously by the results of Harby 1's subbed. That damn top staple is what always gets me.

See, here you've made a VERY relevant comment. I could compensate with a control if I knew more about why these books graded as they did. I'd say I'd need a good aggregated sample of 10-13 CGCs with all of the notes regarding their various grades.

Not only that, by counting flaws and grades, we could even run a planned comparison as to whether or not their is a significant difference between say... a 9.4 and a 9.8 and then use that information to help not only gauge what to look for in submissions, but CGC consistency as well. This would help us prescreen books for submission as well as holding a monopoly (don't talk to me about PGX... CGC is damn close to a Monopoly if I've ever seen one, but that is a different debate altogether) company responsible for more consistency than they've ever been held for. The key would not only to get this sample of books, aggregated across grade, but also to have full access to the notes, or the rationale as to why CGC graders called a book a certain number. Hell, even in their own "defense" so to speak, CGC could hire an I/O Psychologist to do this, but the point is, it's a legit plan.

Don't get me wrong, I'm NOT angry about these grades, I'm not. BUT I DO challenge the legitimacy here. Unfortunately you guys would have to take me on my word at this point regarding what I've said about these books.

[slym2none]

(don't talk to me about PGX... CGC is damn close to a Monopoly if I've ever seen one, but that is a different debate altogether)

What's PGX?





-slym (just ignore it and it will go away)

[sckao]

What I did was buy a lot of cheap slabs which I used initially as a visual reference. Then you just get better at it through experience.

Note that the CGC boards are also a good place to refine the "grading by scan" skills which also translates into real world pre-screening skills.

A tip you might use is to scan each book, then invert it in some program like Photoshop. All the defects (especially spinal defects) will be instantly obvious.

Also, the back is just as important as the front. A lot of people only grade based on the front cover.

[IMJ]

What I did was buy a lot of cheap slabs which I used initially as a visual reference. Then you just get better at it through experience.

Note that the CGC boards are also a good place to refine the "grading by scan" skills which also translates into real world pre-screening skills.

A tip you might use is to scan each book, then invert it in some program like Photoshop. All the defects (especially spinal defects) will be instantly obvious.

Also, the back is just as important as the front. A lot of people only grade based on the front cover.

See, I've gotta point something out here... I read things like what you've just posted quite often; and everytime someone makes a statement like this, they are inaccurate in their description of grading. Don't get me wrong, because I really appreciate your input on this... I do. But (and even Greg who is very good at this is guilty of what I'm pointing out in his post in the link) people talk about the cover looking great all the time.

There are pages in these books people. Pages that have to sit right on the staples, pages that can be tanned, and ones that can't have that random page with a smudge or a wrinkle. And that being said, I took that into account in my prescreening as well. And it's this methodolgy that adds to my confusion of this.

I do not discount people scanning books and look for a grade quote (because in training, it's good practice. If people judge covers for grade, repeatedly, then they will get better at grading the book, but only if the interior pages are not part of the grade), but honestly for God's sake we've had a phrase for this since before Pro Grading was invented.... it states "don't judge a book by it's cover" and I read about people doing this constantly.

[greg]

I was guilty of judging "by the front cover only" for most of my submissions,
primarily because I wanted to see what "the general concensus" of comic collectors
are actually holding when they THINK they're holding NM+ books.

So, I "played stupid" or "lazy" or "ignorant" because that's what most sellers do,
since it's in their wallet's best interest to overgrade.

For Harbinger #1 in particular, though, I can't speak from experience (yet).

I haven't had any copies of Harbinger #1 graded personally, that's why I mentioned
the guy who studied dozens of copies... picked out the 5 best with a shot at 9.8,
and received 4 CGC 9.4s to go with his one 9.8.

Since you said that you didn't have dozens of copies to select from,
and you picked out the one that you thought had a shot at 9.6...
it's not all that surprising that for this particular book, you got a 9.2.

This particular book doesn't "fit the mold".

It's not anyone's fault...
CGC is the only place that hundreds of Harbinger #1 have travelled
to be scrutinized by the same sets of eyes in the last 15 years.

They SHOULD know more about this book, cover, inside pages, structure,
flaws, and all other aspects of the scrutiny of this book, than ANY of us.

[slym2none]

I know everything matters (front cover, back, inside pages,) and honestly I want to know: how do you turn the pages so you can almost guarantee you won't put a finger-bend or other some such thing on one of the pages? Is there an 'approved method?' This might sound stupid, but I know reading some comics (and I DO try to be careful for all of them,) I have accidentally put a small bend while either sliding the page out from the others beneath or from trying to pick the page up with the fingernail ( )



-slym (knows one should wear gloves, too)

[SnotDrip]

Nowadays, I handle high grade raw comics with white cotton gloves (ala dollar store variety). Although cumbersome (like feeling t!ts thru a ski jacket) practice makes perfect. No fingerprints, grease, dirt, smudges, etc gets on the covers nor on the inside pages. Sounds geeky but if the comic is worth it and especially in high grade why push your luck. IMO

[sckao]

I do not discount people scanning books and look for a grade quote (because in training, it's good practice. If people judge covers for grade, repeatedly, then they will get better at grading the book, but only if the interior pages are not part of the grade), but honestly for God's sake we've had a phrase for this since before Pro Grading was invented.... it states "don't judge a book by it's cover" and I read about people doing this constantly.

This is true.

However, consider the circumstances. If the front cover does not exhibit the characteristics of a CGC 9.8, then it doesn't matter how good the back cover or interior pages are. I'm just pointing that out as a quick way to eliminate a lot of your choices.

If someone doesn't have a lot of choices, however, I can see how that might not help.

The way I look at it is this. Time is money. Unless it's a REALLY Rare book with NO 9.8's graded, etc., then spending inordinate amounts of time on a single book isn't a good idea. (examining a book with gloves on, counting the pages, looking at it possibly with a 10x loupe, scanning the covers, etc. That can run over 5-10 minutes per book.) Also, each time you handle a book or take it out of the bag/mylar, etc. you run the risk of damaging it and taking it out of 9.8 territory. (Or whatever your pre-screen is.)

For instance, we looked at over 100 copies of Archer and Armstrong #0, over 200 copies of Secret Wars #8, over 300 copies of ASM 361-363, etc.

So we do a quick pre-pre-screen. Then after a couple of hours of that, we go back and look at the comics again. Then the pre-pre-screeners quickly look each OTHER'S books over as a QA check (based on the front cover and spine)

And in between.. we have a BBQ.

It's generally an all-day thing.

[400yrs]

I know everything matters (front cover, back, inside pages,) and honestly I want to know: how do you turn the pages so you can almost guarantee you won't put a finger-bend or other some such thing on one of the pages? Is there an 'approved method?' This might sound stupid, but I know reading some comics (and I DO try to be careful for all of them,) I have accidentally put a small bend while either sliding the page out from the others beneath or from trying to pick the page up with the fingernail ( )



-slym (knows one should wear gloves, too)

That's a good question, slym. I'd like to know too. And wouldn't wearing gloves increase the chances of bends and whatnot due to you not being able to handle the book as easily?

I hate taking out some of my high grade silver age books for fear of jacking them up.

[tarheelmarine]

I know everything matters (front cover, back, inside pages,) and honestly I want to know: how do you turn the pages so you can almost guarantee you won't put a finger-bend or other some such thing on one of the pages? Is there an 'approved method?' This might sound stupid, but I know reading some comics (and I DO try to be careful for all of them,) I have accidentally put a small bend while either sliding the page out from the others beneath or from trying to pick the page up with the fingernail ( )



-slym (knows one should wear gloves, too)

That's a good question, slym. I'd like to know too. And wouldn't wearing gloves increase the chances of bends and whatnot due to you not being able to handle the book as easily?

I hate taking out some of my high grade silver age books for fear of jacking them up.

Don't forget to wash your hands. Seriously, I just wash my hands prior to reading my books.

[IMJ]

I know everything matters (front cover, back, inside pages,) and honestly I want to know: how do you turn the pages so you can almost guarantee you won't put a finger-bend or other some such thing on one of the pages? Is there an 'approved method?' This might sound stupid, but I know reading some comics (and I DO try to be careful for all of them,) I have accidentally put a small bend while either sliding the page out from the others beneath or from trying to pick the page up with the fingernail ( )



-slym (knows one should wear gloves, too)

That's a good question, slym. I'd like to know too. And wouldn't wearing gloves increase the chances of bends and whatnot due to you not being able to handle the book as easily?

I hate taking out some of my high grade silver age books for fear of jacking them up.

Don't forget to wash your hands. Seriously, I just wash my hands prior to reading my books.

I agree completely! Nothing is worse than getting the dreaded finger smudge on some of the waxy paper on new books. Honestly, I miss the days of newsprint books. I really, really do, for a multitude of reasons.

[slym2none]

Honestly, I miss the days of newsprint books. I really, really do, for a multitude of reasons.

Price of the comic being one, I imagine. I agree with you, I have NO problem with the way comics were made in the early 80'. I don't need fancy paper to help "show off" the computer colouring, no metallic ink, no cardstock/holofoil/chromium/die-cut/prismatic covers, and NO DAMN MULTIPLE UNIVERSES (and pointing the finger at the Ulticrap line.)

Give me my characters, a decent story, nice art, and I'm happy.



-slym (got slightly off at the end there, sorry)

[byzantine22]

The first thing I do to screen for CGC 9.8 candidates is lightly rub my
thumb slowly up and down the spine (No innuendo intended!!!!) while the book is still bagged (and hopefully boarded...tic). Any bumps, no matter how you want them not to be there, and the book is probably NOT a 9.8 candidate. The first thing to flush a Valiant 9.8 is the spine. I have started looking at the back of the book if the front passes. Okay... How's this work? I have done 2 submissions to CGC in my life.... the first was a 'just grade them' 21 books... 15 got a 9.8... The second was a 9.8 prescreen for 53 books... 33 got a 9.8.... while a slight spine stress may still get a 9.8, again, the first thing to flush a book trying for a 9.8 is the spine. This is just my HUMBLE opinion....Hope it helps someone.

[IMJ]

The first thing I do to screen for CGC 9.8 candidates is lightly rub my
thumb slowly up and down the spine (No innuendo intended!!!!) while the book is still bagged (and hopefully boarded...tic). Any bumps, no matter how you want them not to be there, and the book is probably NOT a 9.8 candidate. The first thing to flush a VALIANT 9.8 is the spine. I have started looking at the back of the book if the front passes. Okay... How's this work? I have done 2 submissions to CGC in my life.... the first was a 'just grade them' 21 books... 15 got a 9.8... The second was a 9.8 prescreen for 53 books... 33 got a 9.8.... while a slight spine stress may still get a 9.8, again, the first thing to flush a book trying for a 9.8 is the spine. This is just my HUMBLE opinion....Hope it helps someone.

That seems like a great opinion to me. However, just to remind us all, the main reason for this post is because in my own opinion, I found variation between grades in books that had flaws which should have brought them down below others that appeared flawed only to slightest degree. There appears to be inconsistency in my graded submissions that I can't explain. Through that, I am asserting that the CGC process is highly problematic.

[greg]

Through that, I am asserting that the CGC process is highly problematic.

Yes! It is problematic.

A third-party that has no interest in buying or selling the book is giving an opinion.
They employee multiple people and each one has their own opinion.

As a result, you get a slabbed book with a concensus of "other guys" opinions,
and it's not necessarily going to perfectly match yours, mine, or others.

But...

If you're selling the book, it's "less likely" that the buyer will distrust your ability to grade,
because you asked for a third-party (unbiased, experienced) opinion on the grade.

If you're buying the book, it's "less likely" that the seller is overgrading their own books
if they've had this third-party evaluation.

You can always "unslab" the books, and sell them with your own evaluation of the grade,
but unless you're selling in person, your buyers will just have to trust you.
That's really hard to accomplish online.

Comic Grading...
If it was all science, you'd still need to trust the scientist.
If it was all art, you'd still want to understand the artist's skill and reputation.
Since it's a little of both... it's hard to be an "internet nobody" and ensure the buying public
that even though they can't see you or your comics, you're actually an accomplished scientist and artist...
and that you've got something they want, and they should just trust you and pay up.

It seems we're all stuck between a rock and a hard case.

[HippityHoppity]

Off topic I thought you would like this one not mine

Iron Man CGC 9.8

[IMJ]

Off topic I thought you would like this one not mine

Iron Man CGC 9.8

Well, you were correct.... I DO like that... lol!
-thread has become a torture chamber-

[Shakespeare]

Off topic I thought you would like this one not mine

Iron Man CGC 9.8

Well, you were correct.... I DO like that... lol!
-thread has become a torture chamber-

Yeah, but...how the heck does such an old comic have 20 copies in 9.8 or better? Was it hoarded? Higher paper stock? I'm surprised there's even one in such good shape.

S

[X-O HoboJoe]

Off topic I thought you would like this one not mine

Iron Man CGC 9.8

Well, you were correct.... I DO like that... lol!
-thread has become a torture chamber-

Yeah, but...how the heck does such an old comic have 20 copies in 9.8 or better? Was it hoarded? Higher paper stock? I'm surprised there's even one in such good shape.

S

Hoarded out the yang. Same as Cap 100, Subby 1, Hulk 102, Doc Strange 168 (or was it 169?) SHIELD 1, IM/SM 1, Captain Marvel 1 . . .

Sure I missed one there. Not Brand Ecch, anyone?