If you want to get the most for your book, you should use...

[greg]

EBAY!

(Did you think I was going to say CGC?)

Seriously, though... I'm not sure I understand the animosity towards CGC.
It's a service that allows buyers and sellers to change the way they handle
transactions for books.

We've recently created a separate category for "Professionally Graded Comics"
on this messageboard (primarily CGC, simply due to popularity)...
but it's got me thinking... should we have a separate category for Ebay?
Should we have a separate category for "Local Comic Shops"?
What about a "Mile High" category?

They're all just "services"... they don't have anything to do with Valiant
except that they have the possibility of being involved in a transaction.

CGC and EBAY both provide a service that affects the way comic books are bought and sold online. Neither is required for comic transactions...
Books still change hands directly from the seller to the new buyer.
Why do we "hate the one" and "love the other"?

(Seriously, I'm looking for an honest discussion here.)

[lobo]

Ebay and CGC are just facts of life in the current comic market. But both these had nothing to due when VH1 runs were coming out. But the comic market crash did directly affect the rise and fall of Valiant and vice versa.

So maybe a seperate category concerning todays market (ebay, CGC, evoltuion of LCS) is needed and how it is affecting back issue Valiants. These are important topics for me personally.

I'm also perplexed why people have such a hate on for CGC graded comics. Most other collector markets have a service like this and its well respected (mostly) and well established. Its nice to read your comics for enjoyment but don't deny your also reading a potentially important collectible!
I guess the high grade CGC NM comics of anything worry people because:

A. There seems to be rampant speculation that could lead to another market crash. Maybe or maybe not, it remains to be seen so people should not stress about it.

B. The high prices doled out for these high grade CGC items preclude most us from ever getting them. That makes people jealous and mad which is quite silly in my mind. You can only enjoy the hobby within the confines of your budget so don't worry about what the next guy is doing. I know, I know collecting is condition/obsession/addiction but please keep your personal demons bottled up like the rest of us, the constant whining is annoying.

[x-omatic]

We already do have the section. It is called General Discussion.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

There is ONE very legitimate problem concerning CGC:

You can't touch, feel, or read the book.

And....if every collectible book out there in the world (not likely, but still) gets slabbed....what will there be left to touch, feel, and read? Heck, and SMELL?

People will not want to break open (for the most part) their slabs because there could be a CONSIDERABLE depreciation immediately of the investment they made. CGC books, after all, are still selling for more...usually much more...than their unslabbed friends. And that is a very valid concern.

Will we see hoards of books 'unslabbed' in the future by people who miss the sensory enjoyment that the books provided? I dunno.

This is why I, personally, hate to see VG books slabbed just cause they 'bring a better price'...I hope the market levels out so that books below Fine sell for roughly the same price slabbed or not.

Does the finest known copy of Action #1 NEED to be slabbed to protect it from inadvertent damage? You bet. Just like the original copies of the Constitution and Bill of Rights at the Nat'l Archives.

But....does that VG copy need to be? Heavens, NO! You need to be able to TOUCH history!

[Brother J]

Yeah, once a book is slabbed, I'm too cheap to take it out since it will automatically lose some of it's value. I recently bought a Miracleman #15 CGC 9.4 because I thought the price was great (just over $80). However, I really want to read the story so I spent another $60 to buy a NM raw copy of the same book. Kind of crazy to buy two copies of such an expensive book, I guess.

[Daniel Jackson]

I don't think their is a hatred for CGC in general. I mean, how could anybody seriously not want to know that they might have the best copy of something. But personally speaking I have noticed in the short time I have been here that a lot of the posts eventually take a turn to worming in something about graded books in some form or another and not that it is a bad thing I just don't think that everyone shares the same zeal for this topic and thus it kind of stands out when it is posted.

[greg]

There is ONE very legitimate problem concerning CGC:

You can't touch, feel, or read the book.

And....if every collectible book out there in the world (not likely, but still) gets slabbed....what will there be left to touch, feel, and read? Heck, and SMELL?

Ok, point taken.
Currently, Harbinger 0 Pink is the "most often slabbed book" (percentage-wise)
... and we've got about 2% of the print run in slabs.
So, every Valiant book is 98% unslabbed or more, with most at 99.9%+ unslabbed.
(There are also 100,000 unslabbed copies of the Harbinger 0 story in the reprint.)

[depluto]

Greg, you do a better job of using statistics to make a point than anyone I know.

[greg]

Greg, you do a better job of using statistics to make a point than anyone I know.

I guess it's just the way I think... my wife can't stand it...

[cinlach@aol.com]

i've recently been using ebay to get some "low grade" cgc books for dirt cheap.

i got a armorines #0 gold (cgc'ed at 8.5) for $15 and a harbinger #1 with coupon (cgc'ed at 6.5) for $18.

it cost more for them to get their books slapped then they got for them...basically they lost money on these books.

i'll keep doing this as long as i can...take all the 9.8's you guys want for 150% of guide, i'll take the low grade copies for guide or under.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Ok, point taken.
Currently, Harbinger 0 Pink is the "most often slabbed book" (percentage-wise)
... and we've got about 2% of the print run in slabs.
So, every Valiant book is 98% unslabbed or more, with most at 99.9%+ unslabbed.
(There are also 100,000 unslabbed copies of the Harbinger 0 story in the reprint.)

Ahhhh...but you're missing my point.

I have in my possession maybe 5-6 reprints of Action #1 in different forms. They're easy, and cheap, to get.

It's not the original.

So it's not *just* about being able to read the story. It's about touching history. I'll trade every single reprint of Detective #27 that I have to own a Fr/Gd (at least intact) copy of the original and be able to touch it, open it up, smell it, etc etc etc.

And hey...I do a pretty good job of using stats, too. <dagnabbit>

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

i've recently been using ebay to get some "low grade" cgc books for dirt cheap.

i got a armorines #0 gold (cgc'ed at 8.5) for $15 and a harbinger #1 with coupon (cgc'ed at 6.5) for $18.

Dirt cheap? $18 for a Fine+ copy of Harb #1 is 'dirt cheap'?

Soooo....since the GRADE of the book is meaningless for this particular book....the premium was entirely because it was 'slabbed' (quite literally). At the end of the day...it's a FINE+ copy of a modern book.

The book is worth maybe $1-$2, tops. So you paid $16-$17 for a nice holder?

You can pay less than that and still get a nice holder.

So, I'm not understanding the 'dirt cheap' aspect. Dirt cheap for a Fine+ Harb #1, to me, is 50 cents.

[greg]

Ok, point taken.
Currently, Harbinger 0 Pink is the "most often slabbed book" (percentage-wise)
... and we've got about 2% of the print run in slabs.
So, every Valiant book is 98% unslabbed or more, with most at 99.9%+ unslabbed.
(There are also 100,000 unslabbed copies of the Harbinger 0 story in the reprint.)

Ahhhh...but you're missing my point.

I have in my possession maybe 5-6 reprints of Action #1 in different forms. They're easy, and cheap, to get.

It's not the original.

So it's not *just* about being able to read the story. It's about touching history. I'll trade every single reprint of Detective #27 that I have to own a Fr/Gd (at least intact) copy of the original and be able to touch it, open it up, smell it, etc etc etc.

And hey...I do a pretty good job of using stats, too. <dagnabbit>

I don't think I'm missing your point...
Harbinger #0 was reprinted within two years of the "original".
Are you saying a 1940 reprint of Action #1 wouldn't "feel pretty good"?

Besides, that's what "good, very good, fine, and very fine" comics are for...
as long as they're complete... touch, smell, read, taste... get 'er done!

I guess what I'm saying is that all Harbinger 0 Pinks might have
been created equal in the beginning, but they're not equal anymore.
Some were creased during the original delivery...
Some have been hanging on a comic shop wall in daylight for 12 years...
Most have that little spine line at the top left edge...
A few fell into 50cent bins and look like a used paper plate.

Today, a perfect copy SHOULDN'T need to be "spoiled" by reading
when there are SO MANY other options for reading this book.
Perfect copies (or as near to perfect as we can find) should be preserved,
and it's still less than 2% that deserve such protection.
The rest should be man-handled to your heart's content.

[cinlach@aol.com]

greg's high book price on harbinger #1 with coupon is $27.

i buy in part by consulting greg's price guide. these valiant books i need are getting so hard to find that i'm forced to deal with other valiant collectors who aren't willing to part with them at these unbelieveably low prices. therefore before i buy a book, i check greg's price guide to see whether or not what i'm getting is a good deal at the time and whether or not if something catastrophic happens can i recoup at least 50% of my investment.

so in my opinion, each cgc percentage point is 10% of value.
for me value is not set by a perfect 10 being 150 to 200% above guide.
a 10 means the book is in mint condition and a mint book is worth 100% of guide.

9 would be $24.30
8 would be $21.60
7 would be $18.90
------->6.5 would be $17.55 (so in this respect you're correct...i paid 45 cents over guide for this book. but i got the cgc'ing for free, which doesn't matter because i'm probably going to unslab it and sell my harb #1 w/o coupon)
6 would be $16.20
5 would be $13.50
4 would be $10.80
3 would be $8.01
2 would be $5.40
1 would be $2.70

i look at pricing on non-cgc books differently...i go by overstreet, which is the industry standard.

if people are going to attach a greater then overstreet price to cgc'ed books then, in my mind anyway, that 10.0 has to mean something different then overstreet. therefore a 10.0 must be a 100% defect free book...so if a 9.0 is only considered a 90% defect free book then the prices must be attached a percentage as well.

so an 8.0 would go for 20% less then guide. i REFUSE to believe that any book unslabbed in mint condition is worth tons less then a slabbed version of the same book. whether or not someone is willing to pay tons more for it isn't the point.

if there are people out there that do, then god be with them...for i shall not. i'm not slamming anyone and i'm not going to argue with anyone as well. if the prices some of these cgc books are getting are what someone is willing to pay for it that's fine, but i do not think it should be set as an industry standard for pricing.

if you want to speculate, play the stock market.

if everything else about these cgc books is subjective then my personal reasoning on pricing them to buy can be subjective as well.

hope that makes sense to everyone...if not then oh well...it's been working just fine for me. people are getting rid of "undesirable" low grade cgc's at the prices they set and i've been paying what i feel is a reasonable price for them...what else can anyone ask for?

if you feel i'm being taken advantage of then break out those low grade cgc's if you have them and if you can part with them at a reasonable price i'll take them.

now, i know there's going to be some flaming here and i don't want that...thats not why i'm posting. the few people i've dealt with on here have been cool as hell. so i'm not trying to ruffle any feathers. hopefully no one will decide to tell me i'm a moron or someother insult.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

I don't think I'm missing your point...
Harbinger #0 was reprinted within two years of the "original".
Are you saying a 1940 reprint of Action #1 wouldn't "feel pretty good"?

I have the 1966 Record N Comic reprints of FF #1, Avengers #4, Spidey #1....they're cool. But they're not the same.

So, no, a 1940 reprint is still a reprint. Hell, a SECOND PRINTING, done even seconds after the first print, is still a reprint. It's 'not the same'.

Besides, that's what "good, very good, fine, and very fine" comics are for...
as long as they're complete... touch, smell, read, taste... get 'er done!

That's my point. Granted, it seems odd NOW....but how long before every Golden Age book, in every grade, is slabbed? Possible? Likely? Who knows.

I guess what I'm saying is that all Harbinger 0 Pinks might have
been created equal in the beginning, but they're not equal anymore.
Some were creased during the original delivery...
Some have been hanging on a comic shop wall in daylight for 12 years...
Most have that little spine line at the top left edge...
A few fell into 50cent bins and look like a used paper plate.

Today, a perfect copy SHOULDN'T need to be "spoiled" by reading
when there are SO MANY other options for reading this book.
Perfect copies (or as near to perfect as we can find) should be preserved,
and it's still less than 2% that deserve such protection.
The rest should be man-handled to your heart's content.

No, no, no, no....you're missing my point. That's what I'm saying, the BEST copies SHOULD and MUST be slabbed. The best known Action #1 NEEDS to be slabbed to preserve it....heck, maybe even the best 5 or 10 known...

But not EVERY copy.

Especially those 'used paper plate' copies.

See?

[andrew]

I just never really understood caring so much about newer books. They're just comics. Read them and then stuff them in a box or pass them on to a friend.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

so in my opinion, each cgc percentage point is 10% of value.
for me value is not set by a perfect 10 being 150 to 200% above guide.
a 10 means the book is in mint condition and a mint book is worth 100% of guide.

9 would be $24.30
8 would be $21.60
7 would be $18.90
------->6.5 would be $17.55 (so in this respect you're correct...i paid 45 cents over guide for this book. but i got the cgc'ing for free, which doesn't matter because i'm probably going to unslab it and sell my harb #1 w/o coupon)
6 would be $16.20
5 would be $13.50
4 would be $10.80
3 would be $8.01
2 would be $5.40
1 would be $2.70
.

But...you're not figuring into the equation the bell curve of grade. For any given book, there's not a straight precentage of those existing in each grade. It's a curve. For post-1980 books, (for any given book) the percentage of surviving books in grade looks roughly like this (this is extremely rough, and based only on my personal experience, so don't quote it as gospel):

9.8-10.0 - 1%

9.4-9.6 - 5%

9.0-9.2 - 20%

7.5-8.5 - 35%

6.0-7.0 - 20%

4.5-5.5 - 12%

3.0-4.0 - 5% (if they exist)

.5 - 2.5 - 2% (if they exist)

(I worked out a whole pre-1980 list, but I realized it's moot to this discussion..silly me. )

Now, these numbers include ALL surviving copies, CGC'd or not. A book is in the grade it's in, and the slab doesn't CHANGE that...it just makes it 'official'.

So, the vast majority of post-1980 books are Fine to NM-. So, if there are tons more copies in, say, Fine+ than NM+....why would you pay a straight percentage as if there were an equal amount of copies in both grades?

Eventually, it comes down to supply and demand. A Fine+ copy of Harb #1, unslabbed, would net you maybe $1-$2 on eBay...maybe as much as $5, but that's pushing it. A 9.8 copy has an INFINITESIMAL supply (currently 3) and is therefore going to be worth EXPONENTIALLY more than a 6.5 copy, not just a straight percentage more.

If that's what works for you, there's no problem with that...it's just not in line with what actually EXISTS. Everyone else is playing by an entirely different rule book, so understanding where you're coming from with regards to how you 'value' your books helps make your point. Just understand that it's likely no one else values books the same way, and you're playing with an entirely different set of 'rules'.

As for "breaking out the low grade CGC copies"...I don't HAVE any, precisely because of the reaons stated above. it's just not worth it to slab 'less than NM post 1980' books (with a few exceptions that prove the rule.) EVENTUALLY....when Harb #1 in NM is a $500 book....then it will be worth it to slab LOW grade copies...if they exist.....but not until then. What you're paying for is the slab, not the book, honest. If you're going to break out the book from the slab....just buy a NM UNSLABBED copy...you can get one for less than $20 if you are patient with eBay.

I'd say that Harb #1 in CGC 6.5 is a fluke, and the census proves that. Only 8 of the 57 copies (or 14&) graded below 9.0...again, because it makes no sense at this point to grade them.

(as a TOTALLY unrelated aside....look what I found in the census:

http://www.cgccomics.com/poplookup/grad ... ++++++++++

I didn't know Hulk was up to 181 in 1900. )

[cinlach@aol.com]

i understand where everyone is coming from...i really, really do.

but here's the key, i'm in no way interested in selling my books. so, with that being said, if i can get a good reading copy that someone foolishly sent away to be cgc'ed only to find out later that it was only a 5 to 6 grade book for a decent price, using my thought process anyway then why not do it.

i started this a week ago and i've already for 2 purchases that i'm very happy with. i wasn't even actually looking for them.

anyway, i've got nothing but respect for all you guys on here so the last thing i want to do is come off all condescending and *SQUEE*. so thanks for being patient with me on that front.

anyway, the bottom line is this, we love this stuff...how we decide to best pursue what we love is irrelevant.

anyway, that's all from me...i really don't hate cgc...honest.

[mrwoogieman]

EBAY!

(Did you think I was going to say CGC?)

Seriously, though... I'm not sure I understand the animosity towards CGC.
It's a service that allows buyers and sellers to change the way they handle
transactions for books.

We've recently created a separate category for "Professionally Graded Comics"
on this messageboard (primarily CGC, simply due to popularity)...
but it's got me thinking... should we have a separate category for Ebay?
Should we have a separate category for "Local Comic Shops"?
What about a "Mile High" category?

They're all just "services"... they don't have anything to do with Valiant
except that they have the possibility of being involved in a transaction.

CGC and EBAY both provide a service that affects the way comic books are bought and sold online. Neither is required for comic transactions...
Books still change hands directly from the seller to the new buyer.
Why do we "hate the one" and "love the other"?

(Seriously, I'm looking for an honest discussion here.)

I think an ebay section would be of slight utility. Currently there are many transactions taking place that we comment on in the buy/sell/trade forum, but those are mostly Valiant related. Also, it would be nice to have a place to discuss ebay in general, rather than specific auctions.

As to the why are people down on CGC issue, I guess there has been enough debate on that topic both here and elsewhere.

[slym2none]

Does the finest known copy of Action #1 NEED to be slabbed to protect it from inadvertent damage? You bet. Just like the original copies of the Constitution and Bill of Rights at the Nat'l Archives.

I agree, it SHOULD be protected - but not slabbed, instead with Mylar and an acid-buffered board, and with micro-chamber paper between the covers and first/last pages. CGC even "recommends" re-slabbing every 7 years - Mylars will last a lifetime!





-slym

[slym2none]

For the record - I will buy a slabbed book, but (for the most part) only if it's at or below RAW guide price for the grade it's in. Heck, I got a NICE CGC 7.5 Uncanny X-Men #127 for around $27 SHIPPED to the house, and looking at the book in it's slab, I'd say the graders under-graded this one. I'd give it an 8.5 anyday, and I have called for grader's notes and there is nothing outstanding about it. IF I were to ever have it re-slabbed (not bloody likely) I'm sure it would get at least an 8.0, but I stand behind my 8.5!

Oh, BTW - that issue HAS been cracked out of it's slab and placed in Mylar.





-slym (his CGC 9.6 pre-Unity Rai's are a different story)

[tarheelmarine]

For the record - I will buy a slabbed book, but (for the most part) only if it's at or below RAW guide price for the grade it's in. Heck, I got a NICE CGC 7.5 Uncanny X-Men #127 for around $27 SHIPPED to the house, and looking at the book in it's slab, I'd say the graders under-graded this one. I'd give it an 8.5 anyday, and I have called for grader's notes and there is nothing outstanding about it. IF I were to ever have it re-slabbed (not bloody likely) I'm sure it would get at least an 8.0, but I stand behind my 8.5!

Oh, BTW - that issue HAS been cracked out of it's slab and placed in Mylar.





-slym (his CGC 9.6 pre-Unity Rai's are a different story)

Slym, I thought the slab that CGC uses is of arhival quality? Is it not?

[DawgPhan]

Does the finest known copy of Action #1 NEED to be slabbed to protect it from inadvertent damage? You bet. Just like the original copies of the Constitution and Bill of Rights at the Nat'l Archives.

I agree, it SHOULD be protected - but not slabbed, instead with Mylar and an acid-buffered board, and with micro-chamber paper between the covers and first/last pages. CGC even "recommends" re-slabbing every 7 years - Mylars will last a lifetime!





-slym

I believe the reason for reholdering a slabbed book is because of the micro chamber paper, so even in mylar you are going to have to do soemthing with the books every decade or so, if you want...

However I dont think that slabbing is the best form of protection, but that is a different thread.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

There is ONE very legitimate problem concerning CGC:

You can't touch, feel, or read the book.

And....if every collectible book out there in the world (not likely, but still) gets slabbed....what will there be left to touch, feel, and read? Heck, and SMELL?

Ok, point taken.
Currently, Harbinger 0 Pink is the "most often slabbed book" (percentage-wise)
... and we've got about 2% of the print run in slabs.
So, every Valiant book is 98% unslabbed or more, with most at 99.9%+ unslabbed.
(There are also 100,000 unslabbed copies of the Harbinger 0 story in the reprint.)

Ok, but this is a VERY baddddd example.

Harbinger #0 Pink is a modern book that was reprinted in the OODLES almost immediately after initially appearing.

Detective Comics #197 is not.

Bigggg difference.

(Now let's read the rest of the thread, and see if I said a similar thing 2 years ago.....)

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Ok, point taken.
Currently, Harbinger 0 Pink is the "most often slabbed book" (percentage-wise)
... and we've got about 2% of the print run in slabs.
So, every Valiant book is 98% unslabbed or more, with most at 99.9%+ unslabbed.
(There are also 100,000 unslabbed copies of the Harbinger 0 story in the reprint.)

Ahhhh...but you're missing my point.

I have in my possession maybe 5-6 reprints of Action #1 in different forms. They're easy, and cheap, to get.

It's not the original.

So it's not *just* about being able to read the story. It's about touching history. I'll trade every single reprint of Detective #27 that I have to own a Fr/Gd (at least intact) copy of the original and be able to touch it, open it up, smell it, etc etc etc.

And hey...I do a pretty good job of using stats, too. <dagnabbit>

(Heh.

Close enough. )