Rant about decompression of comics

[lorddunlow]

So, I had been out of comics for quite a while (20 years) before getting back into things. I know there has been this move of decompression to allow for more character development, etc., but I only recently became aware of just how much decompression there is. I'm also not sure that it isn't just done to create more product out of the same amount of story.

My recent reading of the New Universe stuff (from the 80s) is what has brought me to this conclusion:

I really like TWD. I tear through it. It's awesome. In a hour, I probably read 6-10 issues, depending on what's going on. It's the same really with all the contemporary books. Ignorance is bliss I guess, as this did not bother me - the stories are good.

I'm enjoying the New Universe stuff. There are some cheesy moments, but I enjoy it in moderation. However, after sitting down for a total of 2-3 hours. I have read maybe 4 or 5 books. Not because they are dull and uninteresting, but because that much stuff happens. This is similar with the VH1 stuff, but the New Universe stuff is maximum bang for your buck. I now feel that authors, artists, companies are just stretching the same material out into more issues, and I'm not really getting this additional character development. Harbinger may be the one exception, but it's still pretty light on actual happenings in each individual episode. DP7 #1 contains essentially just as much story, characterization, etc. in one issue, as X-O has had in its whole run so far. (Not that I'm saying DP7 is better - it's not). I just feel that I'm being taken now. Oh well. I'm still enjoying the books, I'm just glad I can afford the 4 to 1 ratio that seems to exist now versus then.

[kevinbastos]

Strange, and I am feeling the same way.

Now, try getting a Silver Age comic into your hands. I sometimes read one of them for an HOUR. And they aren't much better, either. Some are painful.

I have found that good means good no matter what.

Bad means bad, too.

Some Spider-Man comics are fantastic, while most X-men critique words aren't publicly appropriate.

[SJS4]

I have to imagine paying the artists + printing costs far, far outweigh the cost to pay the writer, who is theoretically the only one doing "less work" as a result of decompression. I don't think the decompression was a "business decision" at all.

FWIW, I am not that different from your situation. Before hearing about the relaunch of Valiant I had been out of comics for about a decade. I started reading comics again by first diving in to my old comics from way back when. As I read through them I noticed two things:

1. Things have been "decompressing" for a while (since the 70's I would say).
2. I very much prefer the decompressed style of storytelling.

The older comics would take much more time to read but often times that was because they simply used a lot of words for relatively simple things happening. There was also a lot of extraneous dialogue and exposition that took time to read but didn't really enhance the story or even move the story along.

So while I understand that some people prefer the older style of storytelling, I would say that you should also understand that a lot of people prefer the newer way. Its not really fair to say one is better than another since the entire context of the industry has changed, but I for one am happy with the current style.

[lorddunlow]

I have to imagine paying the artists + printing costs far, far outweigh the cost to pay the writer, who is theoretically the only one doing "less work" as a result of decompression. I don't think the decompression was a "business decision" at all.

FWIW, I am not that different from your situation. Before hearing about the relaunch of Valiant I had been out of comics for about a decade. I started reading comics again by first diving in to my old comics from way back when. As I read through them I noticed two things:

1. Things have been "decompressing" for a while (since the 70's I would say).
2. I very much prefer the decompressed style of storytelling.

The older comics would take much more time to read but often times that was because they simply used a lot of words for relatively simple things happening. There was also a lot of extraneous dialogue and exposition that took time to read but didn't really enhance the story or even move the story along.

So while I understand that some people prefer the older style of storytelling, I would say that you should also understand that a lot of people prefer the newer way. Its not really fair to say one is better than another since the entire context of the industry has changed, but I for one am happy with the current style.

But there is even less art now. There were much more panels with much more detail (the art was definitely of a lower quality in most cases, though). Full page panels (heck, 2-page panels) are the norm a lot of the time. So, I would say the art is decompressed as well.

I agree with Kevin. Bad is bad no matter what. I just wish that maybe Harbinger 1-3 would have been one book. Smaller panels, more dialogue per page. Then I would feel that I got my money's worth. I don't see it changing because there is no impetus on the part of the comic industry. I'm still buying the comics.

A great example of moderate decompression that I still feel has lots going on in each issue is Sandman. My first read through of each arc's HC probably took a week (probably 45min for each individual issue in the volume). That's good writing. If Sandman were published now, it would probably only be at the end of the first arc after 50 issues, with each of the original issues being broken into separate arcs. The total run would have been 300 issues easily.

[KXXX]

I know this may not be indicative of old comics as a whole, but...

...I recently finished the entire Solar: Man of the Atom collection as potty-time material and I have to say that a comic chock full of story isn't always a great thing. Very rarely did anything carry over to another issue. Most issues were completely self-contained plots that barely rival Saturday morning cartoons involving one criminal mastermind and his latest nonsense plan to conquest the world inevitably met with Solar's convenient powers which were always explained with horrific science.

It was a fun read, but I like that things are stretched out more with the VEI stuff. If all the Harbinger issues thusfar had consisted of Harada unleashing some unoriginal scheme to conquer the world and Pete thwarting them by slowing the air molecules to freeze Harada's giant mind-control bunnies so he could fart lightning at them before caling it a day... I don't think I'd read much Harbinger.

[lorddunlow]

I suppose my issue is that each issue of current books usually do not have a beginning, middle, and an end. They cannot be looked at as a self-contained story. Serialized literature has existed for a long time. The best serialized literature is that which builds on the stories told so far, but can be enjoyed alone.

Going again with Sandman as an example, many (not all) of the individual issues have a beginning, build up of events/plots/obstacles/etc., and then a resolution. Each arc is an even bigger story that is comprised of little things that happen throughout the books, and the series as a whole is also a full story that has a beginning, a middle, and an end.

Dysart gave us some of this with the character specific issues (#6, #7, and #8) but the others I would not enjoy to read as single issues as they are the equivalent of the disparate parts of a sentence. Only when reading together do they form a whole story.

[Shadowman99]

Going again with Sandman as an example, many (not all) of the individual issues have a beginning, build up of events/plots/obstacles/etc., and then a resolution. Each arc is an even bigger story that is comprised of little things that happen throughout the books, and the series as a whole is also a full story that has a beginning, a middle, and an end.

Dysart gave us some of this with the character specific issues (#6, #7, and #8) but the others I would not enjoy to read as single issues as they are the equivalent of the disparate parts of a sentence. Only when reading together do they form a whole story.

Dude, Sandman is a masterpiece.

I own the whole thing and some of the spinoff stuff, and when comparing it to stuff like Valiant's putting out at the moment... My mind just kinda grinds to a halt and freezes... For me, Sandman is so much more intricate and deep that comparing it to Valiant is like comparing Dante's Divine Comedy with Tom and Jerry.

Anyway, my point is that I like Sandman.

MOVING ON!*Ahem*

Personally, I like the more condensed storytelling that occurred in older comics like Valiant's VH1 stuff. Unlike KXXX, I *like* the self-contained comics where the story started and ended in the same issue. I didn't mind when events carried on over 2/3 issues either. But for me, being new to comics n' all, it really frustrates me to go and look through the racks at my local comic shop to see what's interesting and know that I can't even read 90% of the comics I'm browsing because they're so far through an ongoing storyline that I have no idea what's going on by picking up a particular single issue.

I'd prefer it if I could go into the shop, and pick up a comic that I thought looked interesting, and read a story arc within the one comic, and then look forward to the next comic with the new story next month. I wouldn't have to worry about not knowing what had happened in the series so far and I could simply enjoy the comic on a monthly basis from that point onwards

I'd buy so many more comics than I do now if that was the current format.

[hawkeyeps]

I think a big reason for this structure of story is the TPB market, after the single issues come and go TPBs is how the stories will be presented after that.

It's the TPBs that will reprint forever if the demand is there, so making the single issues build to the TPB format is completely understandable, IMO.

[Shadowman99]

I think a big reason for this structure of story is the TPB market, after the single issues come and go TPBs is how the stories will be presented after that.

It's the TPBs that will reprint forever if the demand is there, so making the single issues build to the TPB format is completely understandable, IMO.

True 'dat.

[jmatt]

You beat me to the punch, LordDunlow. I've been thinking of a thread I wanted to entitle "Decompression? Compression? What?"

I feel that a lot of the titles are decompressed in that it takes many issues for things to come to a resolution as opposed to old school books where so much more took place in a single issue.

Moreover, what I find puzzling is that although things are drawn out more, there doesn't seem to be more characterization (the recent Harby notwithstanding). You'd think that a slower pace would leave more time for such things.

But then there are moments when I feel like things are being too compressed, like the recent climax to the alien invasion in X-O; or when he drew his lightning sword for the first time and we didn't get a panel or two or revelry.

The sum of which makes me wonder if I'm just being too finicky or expecting more than I have a right to.

[erwinrafael]

It's just an evolution of comic book storytelling as creators now understand that comic books are more art-driven than words-driven. I know that there should be a good balance but the reality is that 22 pages of visuals telling a story with no words is still a comic book while 22 pages of words can never ever be a comic book. That is one of the causes of the decompression. Aside from the shift to TPB form, more and more the art is being asked to tell the story. When somebody tries to make an exposition-heavy issue (like Remender's ode to Chris Claremont in Uncanny Avengers #3), the experience is jarring and you immediately get the sense that it is a throwback.

Also to react to the post that says there is "more art" in comic books then. Just because there are more panels doesn't mean that there's more art. The layouts today are much more sophisticated and I think you would really enjoy the current styles more if you would catch the storytelling nuances of the art. Of the VEI artists, the best storytellers so far are: 1) Cary Nord (read through the issues without going through the words, you can follow the story! And he's very good at beats, when to switch to a close-up, when to use widescreen panels, when to boom! use a double-page spread) 2) Pere Perez in Harbinger#9 (this guy is a revelation!), and 3) Emanuella Luppachino. Zircher is good but it's just standard superhero style layouts and storytelling so far.

I understand where the complaints are coming from, though. And I actually find inspiration in Hawkeye. What Matt Fraction, David Aja, Matt Hollingsworth and Chris Eliopolous are doing in Hawkeye show that yes, we can be modern (post modern actually!) but we can also do done-in-one issues that still has an overarching story arc. What an amazing feat.

[nutflush76]

It's just an evolution of comic book storytelling as creators now understand that comic books are more art-driven than words-driven. I know that there should be a good balance but the reality is that 22 pages of visuals telling a story with no words is still a comic book while 22 pages of words can never ever be a comic book. That is one of the causes of the decompression. Aside from the shift to TPB form, more and more the art is being asked to tell the story. When somebody tries to make an exposition-heavy issue (like Remender's ode to Chris Claremont in Uncanny Avengers #3), the experience is jarring and you immediately get the sense that it is a throwback.

Also to react to the post that says there is "more art" in comic books then. Just because there are more panels doesn't mean that there's more art. The layouts today are much more sophisticated and I think you would really enjoy the current styles more if you would catch the storytelling nuances of the art. Of the VEI artists, the best storytellers so far are: 1) Cary Nord (read through the issues without going through the words, you can follow the story! And he's very good at beats, when to switch to a close-up, when to use widescreen panels, when to boom! use a double-page spread) 2) Pere Perez in Harbinger#9 (this guy is a revelation!), and 3) Emanuella Luppachino. Zircher is good but it's just standard superhero style layouts and storytelling so far.

I understand where the complaints are coming from, though. And I actually find inspiration in Hawkeye. What Matt Fraction, David Aja, Matt Hollingsworth and Chris Eliopolous are doing in Hawkeye show that yes, we can be modern (post modern actually!) but we can also do done-in-one issues that still has an overarching story arc. What an amazing feat.

Almost exactly what I was going to say (except the Hawkeye stuff. I don't read that one!)

I think that the method of storytelling doesn't matter if it is well written. I like the self contained stories of the 70's and 80's, but a lot of what they did was explain the obvious. Oh, and there was no detail to most of the art of that era. If you look closely, there are almost never any backgrounds! If there is one thing that has improved in comics over the last 10-15 years, it is the art.

A great example of moderate decompression that I still feel has lots going on in each issue is Sandman. My first read through of each arc's HC probably took a week (probably 45min for each individual issue in the volume). That's good writing. If Sandman were published now, it would probably only be at the end of the first arc after 50 issues, with each of the original issues being broken into separate arcs. The total run would have been 300 issues easily.

[/quote]

Sandman is a classic story for a reason. It is so much better than most of what was put out at the time it was put out and is better than most of the stuff that is being put out now.

If Sandman were published now, it would probably only be at the end of the first arc after 50 issues, with each of the original issues being broken into separate arcs. The total run would have been 300 issues easily.

We will find out about this, there was just a Sandman mini announced for later this year.

[Phantom]

Great thread.

I think about this often ~ how quickly my money seems to go on such short stories ~ regardless of page numbers.
Story is very important to me, I will not hover over art for ages ~ but I do enjoy the art, but don't over analyse it ( I can pick up intention etc ).

Recently I read an independant uk comic ~ and I was suprise how much story was contained within 12 pages. AND suprisingly enough for me ~ how much time I spent looking at the art to support the story. The story was not rushed, or overwritten ~ just a great solid read that took twice as long to read as lets say xo.

Even hellblazer 300 although a double issue was very fast read ~ unlike earlier issues.

Hope I am not ranting, just supporting your comments.

[Shadowman99]

...what I find puzzling is that although things are drawn out more, there doesn't seem to be more characterization (the recent Harby notwithstanding). You'd think that a slower pace would leave more time for such things.

I couldn't agree more. I can't figure this one out. It's kind of the way I see Shadowman at the moment. Too many frames of 'things happening' and not enough characterisation. I know I've said I've been happy with that so far due to the amount of time it's going to take to establish the 'Shadowman' side of the Valiant universe, but now that the first major baddy is dead and a character has specifically said "We'll talk lots next [issue]", things had really better pick up. I'm already starting to feel like Phantom.. in that at times I'm wondering why I'm spending so much money on individual issues where nothing much is actually happening.

Don't get me wrong, I love Shadowman, but if this drags on for the next couple of arcs I might have to seriously start thinking about whether or not I think it's ever going to go anywhere as a story :/


Hey, what's all this about a Sandman 'mini' then? What's that?

Phantom.. , what was that indie comic that caught your attention then?

[erwinrafael]

Recently I read an independant uk comic ~ and I was suprise how much story was contained within 12 pages. AND suprisingly enough for me ~ how much time I spent looking at the art to support the story. The story was not rushed, or overwritten ~ just a great solid read that took twice as long to read as lets say xo.

You should read Blankets.

[lorddunlow]

Blankets is awesome.

Shadowman99: there is a Before Sandman book coming from DC at some point. It was announced last summer. Neil Gaiman is writing it, and I guarantee it won't be as decompressed as most books are now.

I wouldn't be annoyed if there were more characterization (like Harbinger is having right now, and TWD can have sometimes), but most of the time there is just less story. I agree current comics are often of higher quality (both story and art), but I'm sure those same writers and artists could cram more in each issue using the same number of pages. Many have mentioned that they haven't liked a particular book until so many issues have been released and they see where the story was going. The reason is that no one likes to read a...


















story and have to wait a month for the rest of it. Especially when it usually ends at unnatural points as is often the case. It makes me feel like I'm watching an old TV serial like Flash Gordon. I have no problem with letting the story build and having lots of slow parts where not much happens except character development. But seriously, sometimes I finish an issue quicker than I can read one of my son's 10 page board books.

The examples of Sandman (and others that have been mentioned) shouldn't be looked at as exceptions to the rule, but should be looked at as examples that good story telling can be done while also making individual issues full stories instead of only being a small part of a whole story.

[Phantom]

...what I find puzzling is that although things are drawn out more, there doesn't seem to be more characterization (the recent Harby notwithstanding). You'd think that a slower pace would leave more time for such things.

I couldn't agree more. I can't figure this one out. It's kind of the way I see Shadowman at the moment. Too many frames of 'things happening' and not enough characterisation. I know I've said I've been happy with that so far due to the amount of time it's going to take to establish the 'Shadowman' side of the Valiant universe, but now that the first major baddy is dead and a character has specifically said "We'll talk lots next [issue]", things had really better pick up. I'm already starting to feel like Phantom.. in that at times I'm wondering why I'm spending so much money on individual issues where nothing much is actually happening.

Don't get me wrong, I love Shadowman, but if this drags on for the next couple of arcs I might have to seriously start thinking about whether or not I think it's ever going to go anywhere as a story :/


Hey, what's all this about a Sandman 'mini' then? What's that?

Phantom.. , what was that indie comic that caught your attention then?

It was one I actually didn't think was my type of comic at all. The way the guy discribed it ~ put me off. On sunday, I chatted to him again (along with apes and capes creators) when he mentioned 'lovecraft' which is a genra I know of ~ but noit a reader of (well I have a few) and picked it up ~ asked a few questions ~ ended up being best new comic in ages.

Its called 'the vale'. Dead universe publishing

When I describe it ~ you will think NO WAY. I did, but after seeing and reading it, it amazing. Its about an influx of aliens through a rift to earth. But this is 10 years after the event. Most humans are dead due to disease ~ some survive but left with black tears constantly running from their eyes. Everything is pretty much the same, accept the aliens have control ~ but live the same society as us. So the main character is on the dole with his alien friend. It is funny ~ but also great interaction between human and aliens just dossing about ~ life as 'normal'.
Issue two leads into more of the storyline ~ cannt wait for issue three.

Of to search for' blankets! cheers for the recommendation lorddunlow

[lorddunlow]

Of to search for' blankets! cheers for the recommendation lorddunlow

Credit should be given to erwinrafael. I just seconded that it was awesome.

[Phantom]

Not ignoring erwin, just missed the post


Cheers

[erwinrafael]

Not ignoring erwin, just missed the post


Cheers

Another favorite is The Complete Copybook Tales by J Torres. Very good specially for comic book fans who grew up in the 80s.

And then there are the Brian Wood classic Pounded and Demo.

And then there is Bone. Hehehe.

[Cyberstrike]

One of the reasons I like The Transformers: Robots In Disguise over The Transformers: More Than Meets The Eye is because of the decompression that RID uses it takes me about 10 minutes to read and I understand what is going on in each more than I do with MTMTE it took me about 90 minutes to read a 3 issue story arc called "Shadowplay" and I felt: "WTF is going on with this series?" more than than what I should have felt which was "Holy Crap! Shockwave created Optimus Prime!"

I feel that some compression makes sense but in some cases where MTMTE writer James Roberts wastes a page and a half on a stupid joke about the use of semi-colon, and ends where he has a popular character states that he can't say the word "fun" that makes compression seem stupid. And FTR MTMTE is basically more popular with most Transformers fans than RID is.

I don't see the need to have the writer explain every little thing it's stupid. I feel the best writers are the ones that know when to basically to shut up and let the artist tell the story visually, equally the best artists are the ones that know how to make two characters sitting around talking visually interesting and let the words tell the story.

[JustCallMeAric]

I just read this thread and have to say that comic book story telling is better now than it was with some mid 90s companies.

[doodlebird]

I think a big reason for this structure of story is the TPB market, after the single issues come and go TPBs is how the stories will be presented after that.

It's the TPBs that will reprint forever if the demand is there, so making the single issues build to the TPB format is completely understandable, IMO.

[Baramos]

I feel the opposite. I like a story to breathe. I like elements of the universe to be introduced slowly.

Look at Eternal Warrior. That universe has no time to breathe and the introduction of elements just feels smothering, since they are not only creating a universe with a deep mythology, but also trying to tell a story in it at the same time, all in four issues. It doesn't read well.

Harbinger I think has had some absolutely amazing pacing. I think it's been a perfect example of how to pace the storylines of these comic books. X-O Manowar as well has done an amazing job of pacing. I wish they had stuck to that kind of decompression for Eternal Warrior.

Why do story arcs only have to be four issues? The second story arc in Archer & Armstrong is five issues. And it's one of the most memorable story arcs in the history of Valiant comics. And it never feels rushed.

It seems like when they try to compress things the story suffers. Look at this second arc of Unity. It's so rushed they lose transitional scenes. Why does Issue 6 start out with them in a capsule underground? Why does issue 7 have the team rushing all over the world in a span of pages and anticlimactically stopping Silk's plan with not a single hitch or problem? It's so rushed and messy.

Decompress the *SQUEE* out of these arcs, I say. It's done them a world of good.

[Dallow Spicer1]

The 'ol decompressed v compressed story telling debate comes back!

For me, decompressed is far more enjoyable, more explanation for events, more detail, more build up.

Early VH1 Harbinger is a good example of the weakness of compressed story telling, events just jump from one place to another with virtually no explanation!? There's far too many gaps for the reader to guess what happened.

Take VEI Shadowman around issue 7 or 8 when it was a one off contained story, there's was almost no substance to it and subsequently an unfulfilling read.

Today's story telling is for me (in the main) much better.