Bloodshot #13 discussion

[Bl00dsh0t]

Wow, this title really did drop like a stone the last couple of issues. I am not at all surprised by the comments here and agree with most of the criticisms.

For me personally this title went from being one of my personal favorites to being nearly dead last on all the comics i collect. If this was from any publisher other than Valiant i would drop it from my pull list.

The art was really pathetic this issue. Kitson is simply not suited to this title and it was a horrible editorial decision to give it to him. What is even more worrisome is that I did read the preview and it looks like the problem will continue in the next arc. Lupaccino (sp?) was very well suited to A&A but she is not suited to Bloodshot at all.

Duane really impressed me on this title (and i love what he is doing at Dark Horse with "X") but the end of his run is really a mess. I am giving him the benefit of the doubt and assuming that his hands were simply tied too tight by the crossover and the editor.

Overall i enjoyed The Harbinger Wars story, but the fact that the crossover pretty much ruined one of my favorite titles definitely took away from the experience for me. I do't think i will look back too fondly on VEI's first attempt at a crossover.

I feel the same, though I really liked Bloodshot #12. Despite being part of the HW X-over it was character centric and gave us something we hadn't seen in other HW X-Over issues (Harbinger/HW). This issue did very little for me, very little...

[BugsySig]

I've already posted a couple of times about this issue in response to others views but I thought I lay out my thoughts on this issue nevertheless:

Likes
- the first time we see Kara's brother injured in a army medical centre - certainly hope this leads to him and Kara joining the HARD CORPS
- the throw back to Bloodshot revisiting a good (but not real) memory, and him coming to realise that it's fake, before reverting back to the present day
- being decimated by Harada. Bloodshot took loads of punishment. The second battle between Bloodshot and Harada was good but not at the same level as the first.
- Harada capturing Bloodshot (though you've got to read the Bloodshot and HARD Corps #14 preview to get that completely)

Dislikes, now where do I begin!
- this felt so rushed, more like a cobbled together comic of HW and Harbinger than a new Bloodshot issue
- we learn next to nothing here (aside from Kara's brother)
- Kara didn’t act within character at all, I mean leaving those kids to fend for themselves? come on Duane, this was sloppy
- the kids, what happens to them? Harbinger #14 showed the fallout and extra detail from their side of the conflct yet Duane writes NOTHING about the fate of the escaped kids? SLOPPY!!! (Harbinger #14 shows, by the looks of it, some of the kids on the orange jumpsuits being led into a van by Harada) Would've been nice to have this fleshed out in Bloodshot #13 though.
- too repetitive, again there was very little content here
- the money, where on Earth does Bloodshot get all that cash from to give to Kara?
- Bloodshot, while I like his development and the focus on establishing him more than a weapon of destruction, he made some strange decisions here
- the formal and very obvious wiping of the slate for Dysart and Gage to take over
- Clem! Clem is dead, we saw that pretty damn clearly in HW #4, so where is the added content surrounding that fight with Torque? What about the other kids' reaction? SLOPPY!!!

Make no mistake, I am a huge fan of Duane Swierczynski (both his comics and novels) but this was a NOTHING issue. I feel cheated. The best thing about Bloodshot #13 is the preview for Bloodshot and HARD Corps #14. If that hadn't been included at the end I would've seriously thought of dropping the title as the wheels completely fell off here...luckily Dysart and Gage look to have captured the essence of what makes a great comic book (and Lupacchino's art looks awesome) so I'll gladly continue with this as one of my ongoing monthlies.

I could handle most of the dislikes (though it was odd not to focus on Bloodshots group of kids at all and the rehash didn't add much) except for everything with Kara, the money, etc.

When BS said she'd find a "reboot" at the coordinates, I half expected it to be a container of his blood. That was how I thought he would "help" Kara's brother. And if he was going down for the count, it could have rebooted Bloodshot in another body...Kara's brother! Now tell me we wouldn't have spent three pages talking about that rather than the shoddiness of this issue...

[Blood of Heroes]

I've already posted a couple of times about this issue in response to others views but I thought I lay out my thoughts on this issue nevertheless:

Likes
- the first time we see Kara's brother injured in a army medical centre - certainly hope this leads to him and Kara joining the HARD CORPS
- the throw back to Bloodshot revisiting a good (but not real) memory, and him coming to realise that it's fake, before reverting back to the present day
- being decimated by Harada. Bloodshot took loads of punishment. The second battle between Bloodshot and Harada was good but not at the same level as the first.
- Harada capturing Bloodshot (though you've got to read the Bloodshot and HARD Corps #14 preview to get that completely)

Dislikes, now where do I begin!
- this felt so rushed, more like a cobbled together comic of HW and Harbinger than a new Bloodshot issue
- we learn next to nothing here (aside from Kara's brother)
- Kara didn’t act within character at all, I mean leaving those kids to fend for themselves? come on Duane, this was sloppy
- the kids, what happens to them? Harbinger #14 showed the fallout and extra detail from their side of the conflct yet Duane writes NOTHING about the fate of the escaped kids? SLOPPY!!! (Harbinger #14 shows, by the looks of it, some of the kids on the orange jumpsuits being led into a van by Harada) Would've been nice to have this fleshed out in Bloodshot #13 though.
- too repetitive, again there was very little content here
- the money, where on Earth does Bloodshot get all that cash from to give to Kara?
- Bloodshot, while I like his development and the focus on establishing him more than a weapon of destruction, he made some strange decisions here
- the formal and very obvious wiping of the slate for Dysart and Gage to take over
- Clem! Clem is dead, we saw that pretty damn clearly in HW #4, so where is the added content surrounding that fight with Torque? What about the other kids' reaction? SLOPPY!!!

Make no mistake, I am a huge fan of Duane Swierczynski (both his comics and novels) but this was a NOTHING issue. I feel cheated. The best thing about Bloodshot #13 is the preview for Bloodshot and HARD Corps #14. If that hadn't been included at the end I would've seriously thought of dropping the title as the wheels completely fell off here...luckily Dysart and Gage look to have captured the essence of what makes a great comic book (and Lupacchino's art looks awesome) so I'll gladly continue with this as one of my ongoing monthlies.

I could handle most of the dislikes (though it was odd not to focus on Bloodshots group of kids at all and the rehash didn't add much) except for everything with Kara, the money, etc.

When BS said she'd find a "reboot" at the coordinates, I half expected it to be a container of his blood. That was how I thought he would "help" Kara's brother. And if he was going down for the count, it could have rebooted Bloodshot in another body...Kara's brother! Now tell me we wouldn't have spent three pages talking about that rather than the shoddiness of this issue...

I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

[Bone-A-Fach-ee]

I understand a lot of what everyone is saying. For me, the art wasn't there. And yes, it may seem "out of character" for Kara to jump ship, but hey, I think it's at least interesting that for once in comics, it go to be "too much" for someone, and they bail. That's a completely realistic scenario! But yes, sucks that she bailed on the kids.
And yes, I would have liked to see what happened to the kids at the end of this issue. And if it weren't for the preview in BS&HC #14, I might be a bit put off about the ending.
But in it's defense I have to say..... still better than Shadowman.

[AnthonyF]

But in it's defense I have to say..... still better than Shadowman.

I was mostly disappointed we didn't see one lick of the Hardcorps.

Its too bad they didn't show any repercussions from Clem's death, considering he's the only kid Bloodshot and Kara lost.
Was it just me, or did pages 2-4 seem like random filler? Great art, just an odd time to use it.

[Zaphod]

I never understood why Kara just dropped her life and went along with BS in the first place. For her to say "stop the world, I'm getting off now" isn't that much of a stretch. She's no superhero, she has no powers and frankly she has no obligations to any of those people.

BS was heading off to a war it looked highly unlikely he'd walk away from. I have no problem with her leaving.

I have a harder time with how Kuretich went out than this.

[BugsySig]

I never understood why Kara just dropped her life and went along with BS in the first place. For her to say "stop the world, I'm getting off now" isn't that much of a stretch. She's no superhero, she has no powers and frankly she has no obligations to any of those people.

BS was heading off to a war it looked highly unlikely he'd walk away from. I have no problem with her leaving.

I have a harder time with how Kuretich went out than this.

I could accept her deciding to bounce...that's a perfectly reasonable human reaction. It's just that 2 issues prior she put herself between the kids and Haradas Eggbreakers at her own risk and peril. That was just a few issues past her allowing herself to be taken prisoner and beaten by PRS and then practically strangling an invalid to death in order to help BS and those same kids...something was just off about this...

[Zaphod]

I never understood why Kara just dropped her life and went along with BS in the first place. For her to say "stop the world, I'm getting off now" isn't that much of a stretch. She's no superhero, she has no powers and frankly she has no obligations to any of those people.

BS was heading off to a war it looked highly unlikely he'd walk away from. I have no problem with her leaving.

I have a harder time with how Kuretich went out than this.

I could accept her deciding to bounce...that's a perfectly reasonable human reaction. It's just that 2 issues prior she put herself between the kids and Haradas Eggbreakers at her own risk and peril. That was just a few issues past her allowing herself to be taken prisoner and beaten by PRS and then practically strangling an invalid to death in order to help BS and those same kids...something was just off about this...

fair enough, it does feel as if the canvas has been wiped clean. We can lay that at Duane's feet but he does have an Editor who can over-ride what he is doing if they don't like it. Or can tell him what needs to be done in the story.

At the end of the day the buck falls in many places.

as for the "Harada out of nowhere" comments. in HW, Pete finishes his battle with BS and then for a good many panels we don't see BS nor Harada until Harada shows up to take the kids. Perfectly enough time for Harada and BS to throw down.

[BugsySig]

I never understood why Kara just dropped her life and went along with BS in the first place. For her to say "stop the world, I'm getting off now" isn't that much of a stretch. She's no superhero, she has no powers and frankly she has no obligations to any of those people.

BS was heading off to a war it looked highly unlikely he'd walk away from. I have no problem with her leaving.

I have a harder time with how Kuretich went out than this.

I could accept her deciding to bounce...that's a perfectly reasonable human reaction. It's just that 2 issues prior she put herself between the kids and Haradas Eggbreakers at her own risk and peril. That was just a few issues past her allowing herself to be taken prisoner and beaten by PRS and then practically strangling an invalid to death in order to help BS and those same kids...something was just off about this...

fair enough, it does feel as if the canvas has been wiped clean. We can lay that at Duane's feet but he does have an Editor who can over-ride what he is doing if they don't like it. Or can tell him what needs to be done in the story.

At the end of the day the buck falls in many places.

as for the "Harada out of nowhere" comments. in HW, Pete finishes his battle with BS and then for a good many panels we don't see BS nor Harada until Harada shows up to take the kids. Perfectly enough time for Harada and BS to throw down.

Good point. I didn't think of it from the angle of editorial pushing a clean slate, which is just as viable as DS mailing it in (though at minimum I think this may be an issue of both).

I too had no problem with the Harada scene...that's how a tie in should work. It filled in a gap from HW and Harby and was probably the best part of the issue.

On second read today, I think I may have been a little too harsh in my original assessment. The only part that was really bad was between the arrival to Vegas and the Harada fight. The opening 1/3 and last 1/3 were actually solid to pretty good.

[hawkeyeps]

I didn't think it was that bad 3/5, I agree a little more of the kids reaction to Clem's death would have been good. Baxter- "I knew something bad was going to happen"

Kara and her brother are going to team up with Raisin Dude and be the new Chainsaw!

Sorry Dysart I ruined another one

[jmatt]

Man, you guys are harsh.

The art was not fantastic but it did the job just fine.

The replayed action from HW #4 is necessary for continuity without reading HW books. Something about Clem's demise might have been nice but I didn't really miss it.

The dream sequence art was terrific. Okay it didn't really add much story-wise but it does provide continuity for the character and book.

Harada's appearance? Who cares when he found 5 minutes to take on BS? He captured the crown jewel of PRS and got a little smackdown payback. You don't think he'd let that little detail slip away, do you? Him getting his hands on the nanites is arguably orders of magnitude more important than him adding a few psiot kids to his ranks.

As for Kara running off, she's the only person on the scene (apart from Kris) without any kind of power whatsoever. BS gives her orders in what she believes will be a way to help him survive with a reboot. He gets an airplane dropped on his head and Mingo's roasting him alive repeatedly. So she runs off to help in the way she was told. She's not abandoning the kids, she thinks she's saving BS.

Editorially speaking, we've seen BS and the Renegades take each other on for the first time. That's a major event in the VEI universe. Comments about BS "just not really having a place in HW because it's really about psiots" fall flat for me.

As for the complaints about the issue "just being a way to wipe the slate clean", it's a progression in the story. Things are going to change, that's what happens in stories. BS is breaking away from merely being a PRS tool.

[chriskay99]

I felt like some of the dialogue was cheesy - Flamingo is confident enough to taunt Bloodshot with a "You want a dance, soldier?" Also felt like some of the storytelling could have been condensed. Felt like the last 2 pages could have been told in 1 page, for example. Regardless, I'm looking ahead and looking forward to the zero issue and the H.A.R.D.Corps mashup.

[BugsySig]

Man, you guys are harsh.

The art was not fantastic but it did the job just fine.

The replayed action from HW #4 is necessary for continuity without reading HW books. Something about Clem's demise might have been nice but I didn't really miss it.

The dream sequence art was terrific. Okay it didn't really add much story-wise but it does provide continuity for the character and book.

Harada's appearance? Who cares when he found 5 minutes to take on BS? He captured the crown jewel of PRS and got a little smackdown payback. You don't think he'd let that little detail slip away, do you? Him getting his hands on the nanites is arguably orders of magnitude more important than him adding a few psiot kids to his ranks.

As for Kara running off, she's the only person on the scene (apart from Kris) without any kind of power whatsoever. BS gives her orders in what she believes will be a way to help him survive with a reboot. He gets an airplane dropped on his head and Mingo's roasting him alive repeatedly. So she runs off to help in the way she was told. She's not abandoning the kids, she thinks she's saving BS.
Editorially speaking, we've seen BS and the Renegades take each other on for the first time. That's a major event in the VEI universe. Comments about BS "just not really having a place in HW because it's really about psiots" fall flat for me.

As for the complaints about the issue "just being a way to wipe the slate clean", it's a progression in the story. Things are going to change, that's what happens in stories. BS is breaking away from merely being a PRS tool.

hmmm...I hadn't looked at it like that, and it makes sense, but considering I am usually pretty plugged into subtleties like that it reinforces (to me at least) that it was not properly executed.

[Keith]

All valid points, jmatt. Thanks for providing that viewpoint!

[tchalla8]

Man, you guys are harsh.

The art was not fantastic but it did the job just fine.

The replayed action from HW #4 is necessary for continuity without reading HW books. Something about Clem's demise might have been nice but I didn't really miss it.

The dream sequence art was terrific. Okay it didn't really add much story-wise but it does provide continuity for the character and book.

Harada's appearance? Who cares when he found 5 minutes to take on BS? He captured the crown jewel of PRS and got a little smackdown payback. You don't think he'd let that little detail slip away, do you? Him getting his hands on the nanites is arguably orders of magnitude more important than him adding a few psiot kids to his ranks.

As for Kara running off, she's the only person on the scene (apart from Kris) without any kind of power whatsoever. BS gives her orders in what she believes will be a way to help him survive with a reboot. He gets an airplane dropped on his head and Mingo's roasting him alive repeatedly. So she runs off to help in the way she was told. She's not abandoning the kids, she thinks she's saving BS.

Editorially speaking, we've seen BS and the Renegades take each other on for the first time. That's a major event in the VEI universe. Comments about BS "just not really having a place in HW because it's really about psiots" fall flat for me.

As for the complaints about the issue "just being a way to wipe the slate clean", it's a progression in the story. Things are going to change, that's what happens in stories. BS is breaking away from merely being a PRS tool.

Sure, it seems harsh, but if that many of us have problems with the issue there has to be something there. Where there's smoke there's fire. In fact, I think you'll find most of us are very lenient and forgiving of what VEI publishes because we're such big fans. So if we're suddenly critical of one issue you know we must have really found problems with it. Trust me....we want Valiant to do well and publish great stories. But if something doesn't work right in our minds we're gonna say so.

That being said, I'm not saying you should fall in line with the rest of us. I'm glad you enjoyed the issue.

[DarqueArcher]

Hello all,

I thought I would share my thoughts on this issue. I like most was a little disappointed, but unlike some I think it was far from crap. It is funny I kind of felt like when I was in college. I found times when writing a paper I put so much time and effort in the body of the paper when I got toward the end I just wanted it over and just wrapped it up giving it little thought or effort. I am not sure I am making any sense but that is how I felt while reading the last couple of pages. There was something I saw that I didn't see mentioned but I didn't read every post in this thread. Check out page with underwater scene and when Pete throw Bloodshot out of the water. Then look at the panel where Bloodshot is lying on the ground. Notice anything? If this was already brought up please forgive.

Scott

[DarqueArcher]

One other thing the rehash scenes is something I really liked Valiant did in the early days for example Unity. I really dug the fact you didn't have to buy every issue in the crossover(I did anyway) to follow the story and you got different perspectives. So the rehash doesn't bother me one bit.


Scott

[Bone-A-Fach-ee]

All valid points, jmatt. Thanks for providing that viewpoint!

+1

[apainter]

I could accept her deciding to bounce...that's a perfectly reasonable human reaction. It's just that 2 issues prior she put herself between the kids and Haradas Eggbreakers at her own risk and peril. That was just a few issues past her allowing herself to be taken prisoner and beaten by PRS and then practically strangling an invalid to death in order to help BS and those same kids...something was just off about this...

And how did that turn out, eh? She got knocked out straight away! And the previous storyline ended with Pulse -- who has superpowers and training -- getting killed. She's playing out of her league. Like Zaphod said, it's actually a bit harder to understand why she stuck around as long as she did.

Also, I think we were meant to be a little shocked at her departure, just as the kids were.

Bloodshot has never been my favorite title, and this issue really didn't do anything to raise or lower my opinion. I did like the preview, so I have the high hopes with the title change.

I tried re-reading BS HW issues to see how they hang together, and I think that if I were only familiar with the BS issues, I would be confused about who Pete's crew were, and why a plane just seemed to fall out of the sky from nowhere. Neither of those things were set up very well in this issue. I thought for sure that HARD Corp would make an appearance. Unless I'm mistaken, their only appearances were in the HW series.

Art

[BugsySig]

I could accept her deciding to bounce...that's a perfectly reasonable human reaction. It's just that 2 issues prior she put herself between the kids and Haradas Eggbreakers at her own risk and peril. That was just a few issues past her allowing herself to be taken prisoner and beaten by PRS and then practically strangling an invalid to death in order to help BS and those same kids...something was just off about this...

And how did that turn out, eh? She got knocked out straight away! And the previous storyline ended with Pulse -- who has superpowers and training -- getting killed. She's playing out of her league. Like Zaphod said, it's actually a bit harder to understand why she stuck around as long as she did.

Also, I think we were meant to be a little shocked at her departure, just as the kids were.

Bloodshot has never been my favorite title, and this issue really didn't do anything to raise or lower my opinion. I did like the preview, so I have the high hopes with the title change.

I tried re-reading BS HW issues to see how they hang together, and I think that if I were only familiar with the BS issues, I would be confused about who Pete's crew were, and why a plane just seemed to fall out of the sky from nowhere. Neither of those things were set up very well in this issue. I thought for sure that HARD Corp would make an appearance. Unless I'm mistaken, their only appearances were in the HW series.

Art

But she already did it...multiple times...and never complained, *SQUEE* or whined...her character was already established, and her actions in this issue did not jive with that. JMatts point about thinking she was helping by "rebooting" Bloodshot might be valid, but again if that didn't even occur to 90% of us, then it was poorly executed. Now if there was something in the HW series that helped explain it, and it just wasn't rehashed like the other events you mention, then I could write that off. But it wasn't.

Considering the first BS issue of the crossover really didn't establish anything beyond getting them to that abandoned town, I would have preferred this issue's events were divided over 2 issues like they were in Harbinger. That would have helped to eleviate some of the plot holes and would have established Bloodshot and the Battle of Las Vegas as larger parts of the event as a whole.

[Blood of Heroes]

There was something I saw that I didn't see mentioned but I didn't read every post in this thread. Check out page with underwater scene and when Pete throw Bloodshot out of the water. Then look at the panel where Bloodshot is lying on the ground. Notice anything? If this was already brought up please forgive.

Scott

Nice catch. I'm not sure it's been mentioned yet.

[NapoleonBlownapart]

Hello all,

I thought I would share my thoughts on this issue. I like most was a little disappointed, but unlike some I think it was far from crap. It is funny I kind of felt like when I was in college. I found times when writing a paper I put so much time and effort in the body of the paper when I got toward the end I just wanted it over and just wrapped it up giving it little thought or effort. I am not sure I am making any sense but that is how I felt while reading the last couple of pages. There was something I saw that I didn't see mentioned but I didn't read every post in this thread. Check out page with underwater scene and when Pete throw Bloodshot out of the water. Then look at the panel where Bloodshot is lying on the ground. Notice anything? If this was already brought up please forgive.

Scott

You mean how his arm mysteriously disappeared?

[Blood of Heroes]

Hello all,

I thought I would share my thoughts on this issue. I like most was a little disappointed, but unlike some I think it was far from crap. It is funny I kind of felt like when I was in college. I found times when writing a paper I put so much time and effort in the body of the paper when I got toward the end I just wanted it over and just wrapped it up giving it little thought or effort. I am not sure I am making any sense but that is how I felt while reading the last couple of pages. There was something I saw that I didn't see mentioned but I didn't read every post in this thread. Check out page with underwater scene and when Pete throw Bloodshot out of the water. Then look at the panel where Bloodshot is lying on the ground. Notice anything? If this was already brought up please forgive.

Scott

You mean how his arm mysteriously disappeared?

The missing arm switches sides.

[FormerReader]

Based on all the complaints about this issue I thought it was going to be pretty bad, but I thought it was a pretty good issue.

[DarqueArcher]

Hello all,

I thought I would share my thoughts on this issue. I like most was a little disappointed, but unlike some I think it was far from crap. It is funny I kind of felt like when I was in college. I found times when writing a paper I put so much time and effort in the body of the paper when I got toward the end I just wanted it over and just wrapped it up giving it little thought or effort. I am not sure I am making any sense but that is how I felt while reading the last couple of pages. There was something I saw that I didn't see mentioned but I didn't read every post in this thread. Check out page with underwater scene and when Pete throw Bloodshot out of the water. Then look at the panel where Bloodshot is lying on the ground. Notice anything? If this was already brought up please forgive.

Scott

You mean how his arm mysteriously disappeared?

The missing arm switches sides.

Ding Ding Ding you win the boobie prize!!