Time travel rules in Valiant?

[Ryan]

And, yeah, there was no alternate world created. When Phil went back in time, he changed the very nature of the universe.

What's the difference between creating an alternate world and changing the very nature of the universe?

[Ryan]

VH 2 came into existence as a result of Aric using the Cosmic Cube from Marvel comics to give himself the X-O Manowar armor in the past.

Since Iron Man and other such characters had already been established as being fictional within the narrative of the VALIANT Universe, such a crossover could not have happened outside the confines of Crescendo's virtual reality machine. We already established this earlier, heh.

Since everything that followed came as a result of that, it can all be dismissed similarly.

Ok, so in your interpretation post-BQ X-O and all of VH2 are part of the Crescendo created reality. Unity 2000 is ignored altogether because it doesn't fit. What is VEI then?

[ManofTheAtom]

And, yeah, there was no alternate world created. When Phil went back in time, he changed the very nature of the universe.

What's the difference between creating an alternate world and changing the very nature of the universe?

He didn't create a new world. He altered the existing one.

VH 2 came into existence as a result of Aric using the Cosmic Cube from Marvel comics to give himself the X-O Manowar armor in the past.

Since Iron Man and other such characters had already been established as being fictional within the narrative of the VALIANT Universe, such a crossover could not have happened outside the confines of Crescendo's virtual reality machine. We already established this earlier, heh.

Since everything that followed came as a result of that, it can all be dismissed similarly.

Ok, so in your interpretation post-BQ X-O and all of VH2 are part of the Crescendo created reality. Unity 2000 is ignored altogether because it doesn't fit. What is VEI then?

That remains to be determined.

Everything from VH 1 to VH 2 followed a narrative thread. VEI started a different narrative. What connection it may have with the original, if any, remains to be seen/established.

[Ryan]

He didn't create a new world. He altered the existing one.

To me, it's the same thing. Before, a world existed where Gold Key Comics were fictional (Phil's Earth). After, there's a world where Gold Key comics are real (Valiant). A new world exists that is different from the previous one.

Is Deathmate not an example that alternate realities exist in Valiant and can be accessed by Solar?

That remains to be determined.

Everything from VH 1 to VH 2 followed a narrative thread. VEI started a different narrative. What connection it may have with the original, if any, remains to be seen/established.

11 years of comics and you can't determine if VEI is a different universe from VH1? It is.

Everyone is free to determine their own interpretation of a fictional universe, but for me your interpretation is too complicated and selective. All just to avoid the dreaded multiverse.

Multiverses have been a way to explain variations of the same characters within comic books for decades and have been widely used for time travel stories, elseworlds and what if stories, imprints (Ultimate, Marvel Knights, 2099, MC2, etc.), reboots (DC multiple times, VH2, VEI) etc etc.

You don't have to like or accept multiverses for yourself, but they have been accepted by general comic readers as a way to understand how multiple iterations of the same characters can exist and have valid adventures that aren't in the same continuity as the original iterations.

[ManofTheAtom]

To me, it's the same thing. Before, a world existed where Gold Key Comics were fictional (Phil's Earth). After, there's a world where Gold Key comics are real (Valiant). A new world exists that is different from the previous one.

It's the same world, though.

Is Deathmate not an example that alternate realities exist in Valiant and can be accessed by Solar?

That's more of an Omniverse-type deal than a Multiverse-type deal.

11 years of comics and you can't determine if VEI is a different universe from VH1? It is.

For the simple reason that no narrative connection has been made.

Everyone is free to determine their own interpretation of a fictional universe, but for me your interpretation is too complicated and selective. All just to avoid the dreaded multiverse.

Which is not recognized at VALIANT prior to the crossover with Iron Man.

Multiverses have been a way to explain variations of the same characters within comic books for decades and have been widely used for time travel stories, elseworlds and what if stories, imprints (Ultimate, Marvel Knights, 2099, MC2, etc.), reboots (DC multiple times, VH2, VEI) etc etc.

You don't have to like or accept multiverses for yourself, but they have been accepted by general comic readers as a way to understand how multiple iterations of the same characters can exist and have valid adventures that aren't in the same continuity as the original iterations.

VALIANT is supposed to be different from the rest, though. It is when they became like DC and Marvel thay they floundered and lost their identity.

[Ryan]

To me, it's the same thing. Before, a world existed where Gold Key Comics were fictional (Phil's Earth). After, there's a world where Gold Key comics are real (Valiant). A new world exists that is different from the previous one.

It's the same world, though.

Is Deathmate not an example that alternate realities exist in Valiant and can be accessed by Solar?

That's more of an Omniverse-type deal than a Multiverse-type deal.

11 years of comics and you can't determine if VEI is a different universe from VH1? It is.

For the simple reason that no narrative connection has been made.

Everyone is free to determine their own interpretation of a fictional universe, but for me your interpretation is too complicated and selective. All just to avoid the dreaded multiverse.

Which is not recognized at VALIANT prior to the crossover with Iron Man.

Multiverses have been a way to explain variations of the same characters within comic books for decades and have been widely used for time travel stories, elseworlds and what if stories, imprints (Ultimate, Marvel Knights, 2099, MC2, etc.), reboots (DC multiple times, VH2, VEI) etc etc.

You don't have to like or accept multiverses for yourself, but they have been accepted by general comic readers as a way to understand how multiple iterations of the same characters can exist and have valid adventures that aren't in the same continuity as the original iterations.

VALIANT is supposed to be different from the rest, though. It is when they became like DC and Marvel thay they floundered and lost their identity.

Cool man, not trying to talk you out of your interpretation. All I'm saying is that these things are open to interpretation , and one possible interpretation is a Valiant multiverse. You're arguing that your complicated head canon interpretation is definitive and the only way these things can be interpreted. I disagree.

[ManofTheAtom]

To me, it's the same thing. Before, a world existed where Gold Key Comics were fictional (Phil's Earth). After, there's a world where Gold Key comics are real (Valiant). A new world exists that is different from the previous one.

It's the same world, though.

Is Deathmate not an example that alternate realities exist in Valiant and can be accessed by Solar?

That's more of an Omniverse-type deal than a Multiverse-type deal.

11 years of comics and you can't determine if VEI is a different universe from VH1? It is.

For the simple reason that no narrative connection has been made.

Everyone is free to determine their own interpretation of a fictional universe, but for me your interpretation is too complicated and selective. All just to avoid the dreaded multiverse.

Which is not recognized at VALIANT prior to the crossover with Iron Man.

Multiverses have been a way to explain variations of the same characters within comic books for decades and have been widely used for time travel stories, elseworlds and what if stories, imprints (Ultimate, Marvel Knights, 2099, MC2, etc.), reboots (DC multiple times, VH2, VEI) etc etc.

You don't have to like or accept multiverses for yourself, but they have been accepted by general comic readers as a way to understand how multiple iterations of the same characters can exist and have valid adventures that aren't in the same continuity as the original iterations.

VALIANT is supposed to be different from the rest, though. It is when they became like DC and Marvel thay they floundered and lost their identity.

Cool man, not trying to talk you out of your interpretation. All I'm saying is that these things are open to interpretation , and one possible interpretation is a Valiant multiverse. You're arguing that your complicated head canon interpretation is definitive and the only way these things can be interpreted. I disagree.

But, Ryan, it's not head canon. It's what the comics made clear.

What you're proposing is that what Nicieza brought in the crossover with Iron Man somehow invalidates what came before. What I'm saying is that it doesn't.

Nicieza edited VALIANT using rules established to edit DC and Marvel. That's the equivalent of doing a porno movie using the rules established to produce Pee Wee's Playhouse, or vice versa.

Before the crossover, VALIANT was a singular universe which Solar altered when he went back in time to change it from being a 99.99% copy of our world (Phil, Erica, Gayle, the other characters at the Edgewater facility, and the nuclear meltdown and destruction of the world that followed being the only fictional elements to it), to turning it into a world inhabited by immortals, psiots, etc.

X-O Manwoar meeting Iron Man suffers from the same problem as Vincent Van Goat being on a first-name basis with the Legion of Super-Heroes.

That sort of thing may work for DC and Marvel on account of the Silver Age diminishing their Golden Age roots, but it doesn't work at VALIANT, which was not designed to accommodate such things.

In Harbinger #, Faith tells the others "My parents gave me a Batman doll. It's hard to get excited about pretend superheroes once you've battled aliens on the moon." Later, in Iron Man/X-O Manowar, Nicieza has Rai and Solar fighting alongside Captain America, Quicksilver, and other Avengers.

VALIANT was intended to be a close approximation of our world, in which such heroes from DC and Marvel were fictional, pretend, whereas the VALIANT heroes were real.

We might have more fun discussing how it is that Solar could change the fundamental nature of the universe when, according to Ivar, HISTORY CANNOT BE CHANGED.

That's a contradiction worth exploring.

[Ryan]

It's the same world, though.

Fundamentally altered, making it a different world, even if it exists in the same 'timespace'.

That's more of an Omniverse-type deal than a Multiverse-type deal.

you're gonna have to explain what makes that different. An Omniverse (2 different companies I assume) is still a multiverse (different iterations of the same characters).

For the simple reason that no narrative connection has been made.

That's why it's called interpreting. You have to draw conclusions based on more than what is explicitly stated.

Which is not recognized at VALIANT prior to the crossover with Iron Man.

Every comic book universe starts as a single universe until iterations make the multiverse a necessity. DC went from 1937 until 1961 as a single universe (in theory) until Earth 2 was used as a way to explain the difference between Golden age and Silver age characters. Marvel went 30+ years as a single universe (mostly) before having 2099, Ultimate, etc.

The multiverse only becomes a necessary evil after too many contradictions or iterations exist to be plausibly occurring in the same continuity. It's often more of a retcon explanation than a planned story device. It's just a way that people can understand how all the different versions of characters can co-exist and have valid adventures. That's it.

VALIANT is supposed to be different from the rest, though. It is when they became like DC and Marvel thay they floundered and lost their identity.

Valiant was different at first, until it fell victim to the same fate that every other long-running fictional universe faces. Too many contradictions and iterations to be a plausible single universe or 'reality'. It's fine if people want to only believe that one version of Valiant is the 'true' version, but what I'm trying to do is accept all the comics as 'real' and have a way they can all co-exist, for my own head. Feel free to not agree with it.

[Ryan]

But, Ryan, it's not head canon. It's what the comics made clear.

What you're proposing is that what Nicieza brought in the crossover with Iron Man somehow invalidates what came before. What I'm saying is that it doesn't.

Nicieza edited VALIANT using rules established to edit DC and Marvel. That's the equivalent of doing a porno movie using the rules established to produce Pee Wee's Playhouse, or vice versa.

Before the crossover, VALIANT was a singular universe which Solar altered when he went back in time to change it from being a 99.99% copy of our world (Phil, Erica, Gayle, the other characters at the Edgewater facility, and the nuclear meltdown and destruction of the world that followed being the only fictional elements to it), to turning it into a world inhabited by immortals, psiots, etc.

X-O Manwoar meeting Iron Man suffers from the same problem as Vincent Van Goat being on a first-name basis with the Legion of Super-Heroes.

That sort of thing may work for DC and Marvel on account of the Silver Age diminishing their Golden Age roots, but it doesn't work at VALIANT, which was not designed to accommodate such things.

In Harbinger #, Faith tells the others "My parents gave me a Batman doll. It's hard to get excited about pretend superheroes once you've battled aliens on the moon." Later, in Iron Man/X-O Manowar, Nicieza has Rai and Solar fighting alongside Captain America, Quicksilver, and other Avengers.

VALIANT was intended to be a close approximation of our world, in which such heroes from DC and Marvel were fictional, pretend, whereas the VALIANT heroes were real.

We might have more fun discussing how it is that Solar could change the fundamental nature of the universe when, according to Ivar, HISTORY CANNOT BE CHANGED.

That's a contradiction worth exploring.

Your whole theory is based on the fantasy that Vh1 is the only world that exists, but I'm trying to incorporate all the other Valiant comics that happened after, including VEI. Psiots is a VEI term, weird to keep using it to reference the Harbingers from VH1.

[ManofTheAtom]

Fundamentally altered, making it a different world, even if it exists in the same 'timespace'.

Different, but not alternate.

When Erica returned to the timeline, she did so to the same world that Phil had changed.

If there was a multiverse, why go there and not to some other world? Why the same one he appeared in? Answer: because it's the only world that exists.

you're gonna have to explain what makes that different. An Omniverse (2 different companies I assume) is still a multiverse (different iterations of the same characters).

An Omniverse is indeed different companies, and, likewise, a multiverse is different variations of the same company/fictional shared universe.

VALIANT didn't have the latter. Even after the crossovers with Image and Marvel, no VALIANT multiverse was established until Unity 2000, which we all agree was a major mistake. It was just making things worse.

That's why it's called interpreting. You have to draw conclusions based on more than what is explicitly stated.

I prefer to go with what appears in the comics since that is more valid than an individual's interpretation.

No two people see the same thing necessarily the same way. Some think the Earth is flat and that Trump won re-election.

Every comic book universe starts as a single universe until iterations make the multiverse a necessity. DC went from 1937 until 1961 as a single universe (in theory) until Earth 2 was used as a way to explain the difference between Golden age and Silver age characters. Marvel went 30+ years as a single universe (mostly) before having 2099, Ultimate, etc.

The multiverse only becomes a necessary evil after too many contradictions or iterations exist to be plausibly occurring in the same continuity. It's often more of a retcon explanation than a planned story device. It's just a way that people can understand how all the different versions of characters can co-exist and have valid adventures. That's it.

Valiant was different at first, until it fell victim to the same fate that every other long-running fictional universe faces. Too many contradictions and iterations to be a plausible single universe or 'reality'. It's fine if people want to only believe that one version of Valiant is the 'true' version, but what I'm trying to do is accept all the comics as 'real' and have a way they can all co-exist, for my own head. Feel free to not agree with it.

All things being equal, there is a much greater chance of Crescendo using her virtual reality machine to fool Aric into believing that he met Iron Man (a fictional, pretend character) than there is of his actually having encountered the real deal from an alternate universe in the Omniverse.

[ManofTheAtom]

Your whole theory is based on the fantasy that Vh1 is the only world that exists, but I'm trying to incorporate all the other Valiant comics that happened after, including VEI. Psiots is a VEI term, weird to keep using it to reference the Harbingers from VH1.

It's not a fantasy when it is corroborated by the published comics, though.

I use it as short-hand so I don't have to say "Harbingers".

You have two individuals from the Alpha & Omega world (Phil and Erica) who both re-enter the timestream to the same world, the VALIANT Universe, at different points.

If there was a VALIANT multiverse, that wouldn't have happened.

[Ryan]

Different, but not alternate.

When Erica returned to the timeline, she did so to the same world that Phil had changed.

If there was a multiverse, why go there and not to some other world? Why the same one he appeared in? Answer: because it's the only world that exists.

semantics. You're saying the new version overwrote the old version, so only one world exists. That's one way to interpret it.

An Omniverse is indeed different companies, and, likewise, a multiverse is different variations of the same company/fictional shared universe.

Again semantics and arbitrary distinction. An omniverse can exist but not a multiverse? that's ludicrious.

VALIANT didn't have the latter. Even after the crossovers with Image and Marvel, no VALIANT multiverse was established until Unity 2000, which we all agree was a major mistake. It was just making things worse.

I don't agree. U2K is canon to me.

I prefer to go with what appears in the comics since that is more valid than an individual's interpretation.

No two people see the same thing necessarily the same way. Some think the Earth is flat and that Trump won re-election.

Yeah but you're interpreting everything, you just think that your interpretations are definitive truth. The fact that a new version of Pete Stanchek and X-O exist in the year 2012 with new origin stories are enough for any reasonable person to infer that they are a reboot version of Valiant, not existing in the universe as VH1. But since it isn't explicitly said, you think they are. Common sense man.

All things being equal, there is a much greater chance of Crescendo using her virtual reality machine to fool Aric into believing that he met Iron Man (a fictional, pretend character) than there is of his actually having encountered the real deal from an alternate universe in the Omniverse.

Sure, but that doesn't make it easier to swallow that all of VH2, 3, U2K, and VEI are all part of the same simulation.

[Ryan]

Your whole theory is based on the fantasy that Vh1 is the only world that exists, but I'm trying to incorporate all the other Valiant comics that happened after, including VEI. Psiots is a VEI term, weird to keep using it to reference the Harbingers from VH1.

It's not a fantasy when it is corroborated by the published comics, though.

I use it as short-hand so I don't have to say "Harbingers".

You have two individuals from the Alpha & Omega world (Phil and Erica) who both re-enter the timestream to the same world, the VALIANT Universe, at different points.

If there was a VALIANT multiverse, that wouldn't have happened.

So all of VH2, 3, U2K, and VEI being fantasy is corroborated in the comics?

[Ryan]

Multiverses are not that serious of a deal. It's not 'real' or science. It's just a shorthand way for fans and readers to conceptualize how characters can exist as different, contradictory versions.

The Turok in the video games is not the same Turok as any of the comic versions. Which one is the 'real' version? The multiverse explanation allows them all to be 'real' and valid but separate versions. It's not any deeper than that.

[ManofTheAtom]

semantics. You're saying the new version overwrote the old version, so only one world exists. That's one way to interpret it.

When dealing with multiverses and such, terms like "alternate", "different", "parallel", and the like carry a specific connocation.

Just look at Sliders,

"What if you could find brand new worlds right here on Earth? Where anything is possible. Same planet, different dimension. I've found the gateway."

"What if you could travel to parallel worlds? The same year, the same Earth, only different dimensions. A world where the Russians rule America... or where your dreams of being superstar came true... or where San Francisco was a maximum-security prison. My friends and I found the gateway. Now the problem is... finding a way back home."

"What if you could travel to parallel worlds? The same year, the same Earth, only different dimensions. A world where the Russians rule America... or where your dreams of being superstar came true... or where San Francisco was a maximum-security prison. My friends and I found the gateway. Now the problem is... finding a way back home."

So, we cannot use either of those terms or similar ones to refer to the VALIANT Universe in relation to the world from Alpha & Omega.

There was the real world, and then there was the VALIANT Universe.

Again semantics and arbitrary distinction. An omniverse can exist but not a multiverse? that's ludicrious.

A multiverse as you defined it and we agree is the accurate definition, did not exist until U2K.

I don't agree. U2K is canon to me.

Yeah but you're interpreting everything, you just think that your interpretations are definitive truth. The fact that a new version of Pete Stanchek and X-O exist in the year 2012 with new origin stories are enough for any reasonable person to infer that they are a reboot version of Valiant, not existing in the universe as VH1. But since it isn't explicitly said, you think they are. Common sense man.

I didn't say that's what I think. I said that the comics have not established any link between the two.

Sure, but that doesn't make it easier to swallow that all of VH2, 3, U2K, and VEI are all part of the same simulation.

VEI need not necessarily be part of the same simulation since it hasn't yet been connected to VH 1. VEI could be comic books VH 2 Woody reads.

[ManofTheAtom]

Your whole theory is based on the fantasy that Vh1 is the only world that exists, but I'm trying to incorporate all the other Valiant comics that happened after, including VEI. Psiots is a VEI term, weird to keep using it to reference the Harbingers from VH1.

It's not a fantasy when it is corroborated by the published comics, though.

I use it as short-hand so I don't have to say "Harbingers".

You have two individuals from the Alpha & Omega world (Phil and Erica) who both re-enter the timestream to the same world, the VALIANT Universe, at different points.

If there was a VALIANT multiverse, that wouldn't have happened.

So all of VH2, 3, U2K, and VEI being fantasy is corroborated in the comics?

Not necessarily VEI1, but VH 2 and 3 certainly since they are connected narratively.

VH 2 only exists because Aric used the Cosmic Cube to give himself the armor in the past, while VH 3 only exists because of U2K, which only exists because of VH 2.

[ManofTheAtom]

To further reinforce the fact that Phil from Alpha & Omega traveled back in time, Solar, Man of Steel #4 reused actual panels and pages from Alpha & Omega drawn by BWS in the retelling of the Edgewater reactor's meltdown.

1.jpg

2.jpg

3.jpg

[ManofTheAtom]

4.jpg

[Ryan]

When dealing with multiverses and such, terms like "alternate", "different", "parallel", and the like carry a specific connotation.

Just look at Sliders,

"What if you could find brand new worlds right here on Earth? Where anything is possible. Same planet, different dimension. I've found the gateway."

"What if you could travel to parallel worlds? The same year, the same Earth, only different dimensions. A world where the Russians rule America... or where your dreams of being superstar came true... or where San Francisco was a maximum-security prison. My friends and I found the gateway. Now the problem is... finding a way back home."

So, we cannot use either of those terms or similar ones to refer to the VALIANT Universe in relation to the world from Alpha & Omega.

There was the real world, and then there was the VALIANT Universe.

Multi just means many. In my understanding the word multiverse, in the context of fictional universes, is a catch-all term for any type of alternate or parallel universe that's an offshoot of an established fictional universe. Alternate, parallel, or omni might have specific differences (I'm not clear on what those are), but they all fall into the broader category of multiverses, which is the general term. That's the way I use them anyway.

A multiverse as you defined it and we agree is the accurate definition, did not exist until U2K.

I disagree, VH2 is a significant universe with hundreds of books and characters. Its status as a valid fictional universe can't be dismissed by a technical interpretation of an X-O issue that is never made explicit in any of the comics.

So what disqualifies U2k from canon, the fact that 'many people' don't like it? It was written by the main architect of the Valiant universe only 8 years after Solar 1. The 'cherry picking' concept of deciding what is and isn't canon based on arbitrary reasons is what I thought we were trying to avoid.

I didn't say that's what I think. I said that the comics have not established any link between the two.

Yeah because it's a hard reboot. In the VEI universe, none of the events of the VH1 universe happened. That doesn't need to be stated in every comic for it to be true, it's just common sense logic.

VEI need not necessarily be part of the same simulation since it hasn't yet been connected to VH 1. VEI could be comic books VH 2 Woody reads.

So your argument is that only VH1 is 'real', the other iterations of the Valiant characters are not 'real' in a fictional sense because there's no possibility of a multiverse in Valiant. Since there's no multiverse in Valiant, the other iterations have to be explained as fictional constructs that occur within the original Valiant universe, and for whatever reason we (on this world) have to read their adventures instead of the real characters.

While I do find that concept interesting as a thought experiment, I think it's a lot to swallow for the uninitiated new reader. Which is why I said the concept of the multiverse is a shorthand. It's been established as a way that people can quickly understand how there can be multiple versions of Spider-Man that contradict each other. In an ideal world, I wish there was only 1 Valiant universe where everything made sense and there were no contradictions, but as it stands in reality I find the concept of the multiverse the easiest way to enjoy and explain all the comics. Feel free to disagree.

[Ryan]

To further reinforce the fact that Phil from Alpha & Omega traveled back in time, Solar, Man of Steel #4 reused actual panels and pages from Alpha & Omega drawn by BWS in the retelling of the Edgewater reactor's meltdown.

I can agree with you that what Phil did was a form of time travel. There's more room for interpretation and speculation around what exactly happened when he fundamentally altered the universe, and how the Gold Key comics universe became reality within the new Valiant universe.

Solar, Man of Steel #4

Oh no, another variant! Amalgam Deathmate by Dan Jurgens

[Ryan]

Explain this one in 20 words or less




I know it's a Dynamite Sucks comic by Ron Marz, but since the GK Turok is technically canon in VH1 and the Lost Land played a huge role in the rules that were established in early Valiant (Time is not absolute), it seems relevant to the Valiant multiverse discussion. There's even clearly at least one unauthorized Valiant Turok in the image.

With around 6 video games, an animated movie, and something like 5 distinct comic versions stretching from 1954 to 2019, Turok has by far the most iterations of any Valiant character.

[Chiclo]

But it's not that I call it time travel, it's that the comics did. Phil messing up with time was at the crux of his conflict with Mothergod. She believed he screwed up time. He was directly responsible for creating the immortals, aliens, and such.

Ok, so you're saying there's no alternate world created, right? So are there Solar, Magnus, and Turok comics in the VH1 universe that are also canon events that happen in the universe? How do you explain the existence of VH2, VH3, Unity 2000 and VEI?

VH 2 came into existence as a result of Aric using the Cosmic Cube from Marvel comics to give himself the X-O Manowar armor in the past.

Since Iron Man and other such characters had already been established as being fictional within the narrative of the VALIANT Universe, such a crossover could not have happened outside the confines of Crescendo's virtual reality machine. We already established this earlier, heh.

Since everything that followed came as a result of that, it can all be dismissed similarly.

And, yeah, there was no alternate world created. When Phil went back in time, he changed the very nature of the universe. He was a schizophrenic comic book fanboy who created a machine that gave him the powers of his favorite superhero, which he then used to change the fundamental aspects of the universe.

Marvel comics exist in the Marvel universe. She-Hulk has cited them in court.

Many of the persons depicted in those Marvel-within-Marvel comics also exist in the Marvel universe.

Faith said that Marvel comic books exist in the Valiant universe. Did she say that these characters were exclusively fictional?

Clearly it was the intent of the author that the Marvel comics characters to be fictional, in the same way that the authors clearly meant the satchel and Bagh Nakh to be magical. Why is one meant never to be violated and the other to be explained away?

[ManofTheAtom]

Multi just means many. In my understanding the word multiverse, in the context of fictional universes, is a catch-all term for any type of alternate or parallel universe that's an offshoot of an established fictional universe. Alternate, parallel, or omni might have specific differences (I'm not clear on what those are), but they all fall into the broader category of multiverses, which is the general term. That's the way I use them anyway.

An Omniverse can contain several multiverses.

DC, Marvel, VALIANT, Image, are all part of the Omniverse. Some, like the first two, contain multiverses of their own.

Universes within a multiverse are unique onto themselves, whereas multiverses within those universes contain multiple iterations of the same characters. 

I disagree, VH2 is a significant universe with hundreds of books and characters. Its status as a valid fictional universe can't be dismissed by a technical interpretation of an X-O issue that is never made explicit in any of the comics.

VH 2 was supposed to replace VH 1 from the moment Aric received the armor in the past. It was not supposed to exist as a separate universe. Read the Man of The Atom special to see how Solar further muddled things.

Aric using the Cosmic Cube to turn the VH 1 Universe into the VH 2 Universe is akin to Phil turning the Earth from Alpha and Omega into the VALIANT Universe.

So what disqualifies U2k from canon, the fact that 'many people' don't like it? It was written by the main architect of the Valiant universe only 8 years after Solar 1. The 'cherry picking' concept of deciding what is and isn't canon based on arbitrary reasons is what I thought we were trying to avoid.

U2K turned the VALIANT characters from VH 1 into fictional characters that were dispersed using magic ink.

U2K was the antithesis of the original VALIANT.

Yeah because it's a hard reboot. In the VEI universe, none of the events of the VH1 universe happened. That doesn't need to be stated in every comic for it to be true, it's just common sense logic.

VEI can exist independently from VH 1 since there are no narrative threads that connect them.

So your argument is that only VH1 is 'real', the other iterations of the Valiant characters are not 'real' in a fictional sense because there's no possibility of a multiverse in Valiant. Since there's no multiverse in Valiant, the other iterations have to be explained as fictional constructs that occur within the original Valiant universe, and for whatever reason we (on this world) have to read their adventures instead of the real characters.

Yeah.

While I do find that concept interesting as a thought experiment, I think it's a lot to swallow for the uninitiated new reader. Which is why I said the concept of the multiverse is a shorthand. It's been established as a way that people can quickly understand how there can be multiple versions of Spider-Man that contradict each other. In an ideal world, I wish there was only 1 Valiant universe where everything made sense and there were no contradictions, but as it stands in reality I find the concept of the multiverse the easiest way to enjoy and explain all the comics. Feel free to disagree.

But VALIANT as originally established did not accommodate a multiverse. It was always intended to be a singular universe that went from one state to another.

"It's all energy, it's in how you move it".

The theory, or argument if you will, for conservation of energy, makes a multiverse impossible.

There is only as much energy in the universe as was expelled in the Big Bang. Since energy can neither be created nor destroyed, there is not enough energy for more than one universe to exist.

VALIANT at its onset strove to adhere to real science, thus it must therefore account for that.

[ManofTheAtom]

Marvel comics exist in the Marvel universe. She-Hulk has cited them in court.

Many of the persons depicted in those Marvel-within-Marvel comics also exist in the Marvel universe.

Faith said that Marvel comic books exist in the Valiant universe. Did she say that these characters were exclusively fictional?

Clearly it was the intent of the author that the Marvel comics characters to be fictional, in the same way that the authors clearly meant the satchel and Bagh Nakh to be magical. Why is one meant never to be violated and the other to be explained away?

They're both explained away.

As I stated earlier, there is a much greater likelihood of Crescendo using her virtual reality machine to make Aric believe he encountered Iron Man than there is of the two actually meeting. Just like there is a greater probability of those items being advanced technology from the future than there is of their being magical.

You'll note that magical items in the VU are not that vast.

Even the cursed 13 silver coins of Judas can be explained as having absorbed necromantic energy upon his death. That didn't necessarily make them magical since necromantic energy is not magical itself. It is merely the energy that leaves one's body upon death.

[ManofTheAtom]

When Phil split in two, himself and Doctor Solar, he mentions that Solar got his will, strength, courage, etc.

That can be understood to mean that when they split, the energy they are made out of divided rather than replicate.

Doctor Solar took Phil's will, courage, strength, and who knows what else, leaving him without any, which is why he became more evil-esque.

The energy that was once one person divided into two.