Corporate Wars

[ManofTheAtom]

I've been saying that it would be cool if VALIANT did an event to get people's attention.

Thinking about it, it occurred to me that it would be cool if they did the VEI version of the corporate wars alluded to in Rai #0 (which would be different from the Harbinger Wars).

Who would be the factions in this conflict?

Orb? Omen? the Harbinger Foundation? Who else?

This could be used to introduce the VEI version of VH 2's Troublemakers and Galloway & Galloway.

Alien could maybe start off by doing a series of one-shots that introduce each faction in the conflict, their agenda, the players, etc.

The Orb one-shot could introduce the VEI versions of Ken Clarkson and Randy Cartier. Maybe even Donovan Wiley and Renata from VH 2 as employees of Orb.

[magnusr]

Thinking about it, it occurred to me that it would be cool if they did the VEI version of the corporate wars alluded to in Rai #0 (which would be different from the Harbinger Wars).

They lead to the Harbinger wars so it would be like a prequel. One that takes place right now since it says that the world of 2020 is torn by the warring corporations.

Who would be the factions in this conflict?

Harada and HARD Corps are specifically mentioned. Also says that 2062 Orb Industries falls so they must have been allies of HARD Corps. And I guess pretty much any major corporate power.

/Magnus

[ManofTheAtom]

In a Corporate Wars event, each different corporation involve in the conflict could be used to reflect a real-world corporation, like X, Meta, Amazon, Wal-Mart, the Trump Organization, etc.

That sort of reflection of the real world would give new audiences an entry point into the VALIANT Universe.

Rather than making it about superheroes fighting supervillains like at DC and Marvel, it essentially becomes about common folk fighting corporate greed, with the superpowered denizens of the VALIANT Universe sort of caught in the middle dealing with the repercussions (because, ideally, a corporate war should be solved by the corporations themselves, not by superheroes swooping in to save the day).

Sure, in the landscape of the VALIANT Universe each corporate faction would have its own superpowered "army", like the Harbinger Foundation would have its Eggbreakers, Omen the H.A.R.D. Corps, Galloway & Galloway the Troublemakers, PRS its super soldiers, etc, but that's what the superheroes have to deal with.

The focus should be more on what the common folk have to deal with, like a Trump-esque loon running for POTUS, losing the election, and then using his pulpit to rile up the populace into trying to overthrow the government.

Look at the many ways in which corporations (which "are people too") oppress people and apply that to the VALIANT Universe in a way that reflects the world outside our window.

Ask yourself, what does a real corporate war look like? Is it HARD Corps fighting Troublemakers on Main Street, or is it the My Pillow guy going on national TV trying to convince people that the election was stolen, or corporations dictating people's health care? That sort of thing.

The fights are the distraction. In the VALIANT Universe, those conflicts are the wars in Ukraine and Gaza and the immigrants at the border. The real corporate conflict is fought in a different arena.

What are the corporations fighting for and how do they aim to achieve it?

[ManofTheAtom]

They lead to the Harbinger wars so it would be like a prequel. One that takes place right now since it says that the world of 2020 is torn by the warring corporations.

Well, they did in VH 1, but in VEI they've already had two Harbinger Wars.

Harada and HARD Corps are specifically mentioned. Also says that 2062 Orb Industries falls so they must have been allies of HARD Corps. And I guess pretty much any major corporate power.

/Magnus

Yeah. Like Project Rising Spirit, Gate, etc.

[magnusr]

In a Corporate Wars event, each different corporation involve in the conflict could be used to reflect a real-world corporation, like X, Meta, Amazon, Wal-Mart, the Trump Organization, etc.

Corporate states like in Rai 0 indicate corporations that can control governmental aspects of life. Traditionally it was strong local companies that managed to control peoples' lives. Like in the so called "company towns". Now we also have the international companies that affect lots of people, but I don't see them actually replacing governments.

The focus should be more on what the common folk have to deal with, like a Trump-esque loon running for POTUS, losing the election, and then using his pulpit to rile up the populace into trying to overthrow the government.

Look at the many ways in which corporations (which "are people too") oppress people and apply that to the VALIANT Universe in a way that reflects the world outside our window.

Ask yourself, what does a real corporate war look like? Is it HARD Corps fighting Troublemakers on Main Street, or is it the My Pillow guy going on national TV trying to convince people that the election was stolen, or corporations dictating people's health care? That sort of thing.

Yeah, that does make it more grounded.

the immigrants at the border

I see, you want Mexico to be the bad guy

/Magnus

[Ryan]

I'm on the record of not liking when a lot of current events are directly referenced in fiction. Of course in realism there needs to be some way to place the story in the real world. I generally think its better when current events are referenced indirectly and multiple levels of abstraction are used instead of referring directly to real life people and politics of the moment.

All I remember about VEI Harbinger Wars 2 was that Livewire killed the electric grid for the whole planet (I think). But to me the ramifications weren't realistically handled, so the story fell flat.

I think Corporate Wars could be cool in Valiant if different corporations create factions that have private armies (like Wagner irl) that are led by different groups of super powered people. Is that what you mean, or are you talking about something different?

[ManofTheAtom]

Corporate states like in Rai 0 indicate corporations that can control governmental aspects of life. Traditionally it was strong local companies that managed to control peoples' lives. Like in the so called "company towns". Now we also have the international companies that affect lots of people, but I don't see them actually replacing governments.

Well, Trump is someone that came from the corporate world who tried to overthrow the government.

It would be interesting to see corporations in the VALIANT Universe take over entire states and such.

Yeah, that does make it more grounded.

The ideal goal.

I see, you want Mexico to be the bad guy

I think that Mexico in VEI is like the penguins in VH 1; extinct, lol.

[ManofTheAtom]

I'm on the record of not liking when a lot of current events are directly referenced in fiction. Of course in realism there needs to be some way to place the story in the real world. I generally think its better when current events are referenced indirectly and multiple levels of abstraction are used instead of referring directly to real life people and politics of the moment.

Since Birthquake, VALIANT has gone through different permutations that dress it up as either a copy of DC or Marvel to get people that buy those comics to buy them, and it hasn't worked.

VALIANT needs to recapture the tone and identity of the Shooter era, by setting itself in the world outside our window and all that. So, get creators that can capture that, rather than ones that turn Ninjak into Spider-Man.

I think Corporate Wars could be cool in Valiant if different corporations create factions that have private armies (like Wagner irl) that are led by different groups of super powered people. Is that what you mean, or are you talking about something different?

Somewhat, sure. Omen has HARD Corps, G&G has Troublemakers, and the Harbinger Foundation has the Eggbreakers, but the stories themselves can't just be of these superheroes and villains fighting it out on the street. It needs to have a more grounded perspective that shows how a corporate war affects the regular people.

[Ryan]

Since Birthquake, VALIANT has gone through different permutations that dress it up as either a copy of DC or Marvel to get people that buy those comics to buy them, and it hasn't worked.

VALIANT needs to recapture the tone and identity of the Shooter era, by setting itself in the world outside our window and all that. So, get creators that can capture that, rather than ones that turn Ninjak into Spider-Man.

I agree. I just don't think that means they should address current events directly. Early Valiant never mentioned the Gulf War, even though it was going on at the time.

Somewhat, sure. Omen has HARD Corps, G&G has Troublemakers, and the Harbinger Foundation has the Eggbreakers, but the stories themselves can't just be of these superheroes and villains fighting it out on the street. It needs to have a more grounded perspective that shows how a corporate war affects the regular people.

So you're saying the stars of the books should be regular people? Like in Busiek's Marvels?

[Ryan]

Or like Rick Jones and Kris Hathaway, regular people who hang out with super powered people?

[Juki]

This all sounds like a good read. I like the idea of having current corporations in the comics like “Amazon, X, Walmart, etc. with a Corporate Wars. I do think that would sell. But, I don’t think it is a good idea to put any emphasis on real Politicians and current polar political events. It is not a super big deal…. But, I just prefer not to read any plots that involve Trump or Biden… or any other current real politicians. I think that opens up a can of worms and allows writers to have a political agenda within the comic. However, I think vague mention of current events would be ok. I just don’t think current events should be the focus of any plot or story. Mentioning something else going on in the world here and there would reinforce that the comic is set in the present day.

[ManofTheAtom]

Since Birthquake, VALIANT has gone through different permutations that dress it up as either a copy of DC or Marvel to get people that buy those comics to buy them, and it hasn't worked.

VALIANT needs to recapture the tone and identity of the Shooter era, by setting itself in the world outside our window and all that. So, get creators that can capture that, rather than ones that turn Ninjak into Spider-Man.

I agree. I just don't think that means they should address current events directly. Early Valiant never mentioned the Gulf War, even though it was going on at the time.

They did include the first inauguration of Bill Clinton.

Somewhat, sure. Omen has HARD Corps, G&G has Troublemakers, and the Harbinger Foundation has the Eggbreakers, but the stories themselves can't just be of these superheroes and villains fighting it out on the street. It needs to have a more grounded perspective that shows how a corporate war affects the regular people.

So you're saying the stars of the books should be regular people? Like in Busiek's Marvels?

In a Corporate Wars mini series or the like, it couldn't hurt, for sure.

[ManofTheAtom]

Or like Rick Jones and Kris Hathaway, regular people who hang out with super powered people?

Exactly.

[ManofTheAtom]

This all sounds like a good read. I like the idea of having current corporations in the comics like “Amazon, X, Walmart, etc. with a Corporate Wars. I do think that would sell. But, I don’t think it is a good idea to put any emphasis on real Politicians and current polar political events. It is not a super big deal…. But, I just prefer not to read any plots that involve Trump or Biden… or any other current real politicians. I think that opens up a can of worms and allows writers to have a political agenda within the comic. However, I think vague mention of current events would be ok. I just don’t think current events should be the focus of any plot or story. Mentioning something else going on in the world here and there would reinforce that the comic is set in the present day.

It need not be those figures, though real-world figures like Cliton did appear in VALIANT comics.

In VH 1, Ken Clarkson was initially intended to become a politician, as shown in Rai #0 and Secret Weapons #1, a plot point that was abandoned after Shooter left.

Imagine that the VEI version of Ken was modeled after Donald Trump, the way DC models Lex Luthor after Trump. That would be Orb's entry into the Corporate Wars. Their agent, of a sort, would manipulate the populace to turn them against the government, like Trump has done. It would be up to his opponents to counter attack that. That would be, for instance, the faction that represents the media, maybe.

[Ryan]

In a Corporate Wars mini series or the like, it couldn't hurt, for sure.

I don't know, for me the realism bit can go too far. There was always a pulpy element to Vh1. Pulpy entertainment that just had more realism and consistency than Marvel/DC, but at the end of the day it was still enjoyable as pulp superhero action fun.

[ManofTheAtom]

In a Corporate Wars mini series or the like, it couldn't hurt, for sure.

I don't know, for me the realism bit can go too far. There was always a pulpy element to Vh1. Pulpy entertainment that just had more realism and consistency than Marvel/DC, but at the end of the day it was still enjoyable as pulp superhero action fun.

I mean, Rexo fought in Vietnam. The real world was always there.

[Ryan]

In a Corporate Wars mini series or the like, it couldn't hurt, for sure.

I don't know, for me the realism bit can go too far. There was always a pulpy element to Vh1. Pulpy entertainment that just had more realism and consistency than Marvel/DC, but at the end of the day it was still enjoyable as pulp superhero action fun.

I mean, Rexo fought in Vietnam. The real world was always there.

Yeah there should definitely be some realism.

Going back to your original question,

Who would be the factions in this conflict?

Orb? Omen? the Harbinger Foundation? Who else?

Was the Weaponeer organization something that could become one of the factions? I never read all the Ninjaks and I don't remember many of the details. I have no idea what the VEI Weaponeer thing was.

What about a corporation that is run by the Spider aliens, like what Orb used to be before Aric took over. Let's say they've regrouped and now control a faction.

The Archies foundation.

A mega Tech corporation controlled by Ax (he could be a Musk-type).

A Necromantic corporation run by Darque or one of his underlings.

Project Rising Spirit, or a new offshoot that controls the technology that created Bloodshot.

Muskogee Nuclear Energy

Again if we're talking about VEI disregard my ideas, I don't remember much about how VEI played out.

[ManofTheAtom]

In a Corporate Wars mini series or the like, it couldn't hurt, for sure.

I don't know, for me the realism bit can go too far. There was always a pulpy element to Vh1. Pulpy entertainment that just had more realism and consistency than Marvel/DC, but at the end of the day it was still enjoyable as pulp superhero action fun.

I mean, Rexo fought in Vietnam. The real world was always there.

Yeah there should definitely be some realism.

Going back to your original question,

Who would be the factions in this conflict?

Orb? Omen? the Harbinger Foundation? Who else?

Was the Weaponeer organization something that could become one of the factions? I never read all the Ninjaks and I don't remember many of the details. I have no idea what the VEI Weaponeer thing was.

What about a corporation that is run by the Spider aliens, like what Orb used to be before Aric took over. Let's say they've regrouped and now control a faction.

The Archies foundation.

A mega Tech corporation controlled by Ax (he could be a Musk-type).

A Necromantic corporation run by Darque or one of his underlings.

Project Rising Spirit, or a new offshoot that controls the technology that created Bloodshot.

Muskogee Nuclear Energy

Again if we're talking about VEI disregard my ideas, I don't remember much about how VEI played out.

Much of what you say applies to VEI. Not sure about Darque or the Vine having a corporation, though, heh.

As for the Weaponeer, I don't remember much about the VEI version to comment.

[Ryan]

Much of what you say applies to VEI. Not sure about Darque or the Vine having a corporation, though, heh.

As for the Weaponeer, I don't remember much about the VEI version to comment.

Maybe not an actual corporation, but if there's a battle for supremacy in the Valiant universe, I would imagine that Darque or other Necromantic forces would get involved.

But I don't know much about the VEI Darque or how the whole Deadside thing would be involved.

[ManofTheAtom]

Much of what you say applies to VEI. Not sure about Darque or the Vine having a corporation, though, heh.

As for the Weaponeer, I don't remember much about the VEI version to comment.

Maybe not an actual corporation, but if there's a battle for supremacy in the Valiant universe, I would imagine that Darque or other Necromantic forces would get involved.

But I don't know much about the VEI Darque or how the whole Deadside thing would be involved.

Remember that in VH 1 Darque died in 1999 and the corporate wars didn't happen until 20 years later give or take.

As for VEI Darque being a faction in a corporate war, that's just a bit too comic booky for my taste. He's not the type to run a corporation, particularly not in the world outside our window.

He might manipulate existing corporations. Hell, he might even be the one that pits them against each other, but not have one of his own.

As for the Gulf War in VH 1, HARD Corps was composed primarily of veterans. You sure none of them fought in it? I can't recall offhand.

[Ryan]

Remember that in VH 1 Darque died in 1999 and the corporate wars didn't happen until 20 years later give or take.

As for VEI Darque being a faction in a corporate war, that's just a bit too comic booky for my taste. He's not the type to run a corporation, particularly not in the world outside our window.

He might manipulate existing corporations. Hell, he might even be the one that pits them against each other, but not have one of his own.

Darque is too comic booky but Troublemakers isn't . K.

So the idea is to bring VH1 Rai 0 into VEI continuity? Didn't VEI already do their own version of Rai 0?

Anyway I'm really only interested in VH1 so I'm probably the wrong person to be brainstorming on this topic. You seem to have it figured out though

As for the Gulf War in VH 1, HARD Corps was composed primarily of veterans. You sure none of them fought in it? I can't recall offhand.

Characters having back stories that reference real-life events is not the same thing as having the stories be based around current events. It would be like if EW and Bloodshot were fighting in the Gulf war as it was actually happening or the Harbinger kids intervening in the Rodney King riots.

But yeah we definitely had this discussion before so I'll just stand by what I said. You think good comics should be dealing with current events directly and I don't. Difference of opinion.

[ManofTheAtom]

Darque is too comic booky but Troublemakers isn't . K.

Darque having his own corporation would be too comic booky. He's not that kind of villain.

So the idea is to bring VH1 Rai 0 into VEI continuity? Didn't VEI already do their own version of Rai 0?

I forget about that. Need to check what it says, if anything, about corporate wars.

Anyway I'm really only interested in VH1 so I'm probably the wrong person to be brainstorming on this topic. You seem to have it figured out though

Characters having back stories that reference real-life events is not the same thing as having the stories be based around current events. It would be like if EW and Bloodshot were fighting in the Gulf war as it was actually happening or the Harbinger kids intervening in the Rodney King riots.

But yeah we definitely had this discussion before so I'll just stand by what I said. You think good comics should be dealing with current events directly and I don't. Difference of opinion.

Good VALIANT comics, yeah.

[ManofTheAtom]

Well, the VEI version of Rai #0 skips from Harbinger Wars 2 to New Japan, with nothing in between. So, corporate wars would be possible in that continuity too.

[grendeljd]

No one has done a corporate war/ dystopian future setting quite like Rucka & Lark in the image series Lazarus. It’s one of my top 3 all time favourite modern comics out there. Very intelligent, relatively grounded sci-fi that tries to forward-think current technology and Geo-political trends into a plausible but dark world.

Essentially set about 65 years after an event which saw the total collapse of traditional global government systems, after which the top 15 most wealthy of corporate “families” took over stewardship of various regions of earth, running things under a more feudal-state system but with agreed upon accords to keep things relatively stable among them. They are literally families who had the most successful business empires of the past. North America is almost entirely divided between only 2-3 families, for example. In this world, you are either family (the 1%), serf (what’s left of “middle class” skilled workforce), or “waste” (aka poor). 99% of the population is in this category.

Each of these families has a “Lazarus” - a single person who represents them as a military deterrent figure. They are all different, but each one is essentially a bit of a super-soldier, depending on the particular technology their corporate families have access to. They can command military forces if required, or if there are disagreements between two families, they are sometimes resolved simply by a “trial-by-combat” event that everyone collectively agrees upon. It’s more complex than that, but I won’t ramble on any further.

Point being, it’s an interesting framework for a world run by corporations and unchecked capitalism instead of governments - and to some extent this is a grim and fatalistic possible vision of how things could go in the real world. Governments already seem to barely have any real control over corporate capitalist interests at times.

I like MOTA’s thoughts on not having “superhero battles on the streets” as a significant resolution to part of any sort of corporate war storyline in the Valiant U - but it would make some sense for corporations who may end up with their own privately funded armies (aka “security forces”) to also try and gain access to superhuman security forces too (the Eggbreakers are already just that very thing), and use them where justified.

[ManofTheAtom]

No one has done a corporate war/ dystopian future setting quite like Rucka & Lark in the image series Lazarus. It’s one of my top 3 all time favourite modern comics out there. Very intelligent, relatively grounded sci-fi that tries to forward-think current technology and Geo-political trends into a plausible but dark world.

Essentially set about 65 years after an event which saw the total collapse of traditional global government systems, after which the top 15 most wealthy of corporate “families” took over stewardship of various regions of earth, running things under a more feudal-state system but with agreed upon accords to keep things relatively stable among them. They are literally families who had the most successful business empires of the past. North America is almost entirely divided between only 2-3 families, for example. In this world, you are either family (the 1%), serf (what’s left of “middle class” skilled workforce), or “waste” (aka poor). 99% of the population is in this category.

Each of these families has a “Lazarus” - a single person who represents them as a military deterrent figure. They are all different, but each one is essentially a bit of a super-soldier, depending on the particular technology their corporate families have access to. They can command military forces if required, or if there are disagreements between two families, they are sometimes resolved simply by a “trial-by-combat” event that everyone collectively agrees upon. It’s more complex than that, but I won’t ramble on any further.

Point being, it’s an interesting framework for a world run by corporations and unchecked capitalism instead of governments - and to some extent this is a grim and fatalistic possible vision of how things could go in the real world. Governments already seem to barely have any real control over corporate capitalist interests at times.

I like MOTA’s thoughts on not having “superhero battles on the streets” as a significant resolution to part of any sort of corporate war storyline in the Valiant U - but it would make some sense for corporations who may end up with their own privately funded armies (aka “security forces”) to also try and gain access to superhuman security forces too (the Eggbreakers are already just that very thing), and use them where justified.

Certainly. I think HARD Corps fighting Eggbreakers, and Harbinger resistance fighting Troublemakers for example should be part of it, but the narrative focus should be on how it affects the regular people. Very Astro City-esque, mainly because it involves corporations and when those fight it is the people that suffer.

Focusing on the superheroes, it might as well be a traditional comic book story.