Best Case Scenario...

[slack]

So question for you then, what would you consider the definitive Valiant to be?

That's gonna be slightly different for everyone.
but for me:
VH1 was garbage by Birthquake
VH2 never held my attention (Solar did feel like a bad continuation of VH1 Solar, if that's "good")
VEI was high quality for longer than either previous iteration.

[Ryan]

So question for you then, what would you consider the definitive Valiant to be?

That's gonna be slightly different for everyone.
but for me:
VH1 was garbage by Birthquake
VH2 never held my attention (Solar did feel like a bad continuation of VH1 Solar, if that's "good")
VEI was high quality for longer than either previous iteration.

Right on. What storylines or characters do you think could be used to get back to the good VEI stuff? Or is it just a matter of liking the VEI creators?

[Ryan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, it seems the definitive VEI comics are Dysart's Harbinger and Venditti's X-O.

Those stories might be finished (I don't know, I've only read the first year or so), but what things from those worlds could be expanded on by Alien? What unanswered questions, characters, or situations could be explored deeper?

What about stylistically? What is it about those comics that VEI should try to emulate or build on? Art style, tone of the stories, etc?

What other books are considered the high water marks for VEI? Kindt's Ninjak? The Valiant? I'm genuinely curious what is the one VEI TPB or the one comic people would give someone who was curious about sampling the best of VEI.

[ManofTheAtom]

Correct me if I'm wrong, it seems the definitive VEI comics are Dysart's Harbinger and Venditti's X-O.

Those stories might be finished (I don't know, I've only read the first year or so), but what things from those worlds could be expanded on by Alien? What unanswered questions, characters, or situations could be explored deeper?

What about stylistically? What is it about those comics that VEI should try to emulate or build on? Art style, tone of the stories, etc?

What other books are considered the high water marks for VEI? Kindt's Ninjak? The Valiant? I'm genuinely curious what is the one VEI TPB or the one comic people would give someone who was curious about sampling the best of VEI.

Maybe those, and Van Lente's A&A, were the highlights for the Shamdasani era, and Alien should be given the chance to create their own. Maybe find new voices, like Dinesh did, rather than bring back the ones that already had their say.

I wouldn't mind a more serious version of A&A. And I'd like to see runs that focus more on the original character arcs from the VH 1 era, like Aric as the man out of time, the fight between the foundation and resistance, etc. Even Ivar trying to get back to ancient Egypt. Or, entirely new arcs too.

[Ryan]

Maybe those, and Van Lente's A&A, were the highlights for the Shamdasani era, and Alien should be given the chance to create their own. Maybe find new voices, like Dinesh did, rather than bring back the ones that already had their say.

Yeah, I wouldn't be suggesting bringing back those creators. I'm more asking for the people that love those comics, what was it specifically about them that is worth building from?

I wouldn't mind a more serious version of A&A. And I'd like to see runs that focus more on the original character arcs from the VH 1 era, like Aric as the man out of time, the fight between the foundation and resistance, etc. Even Ivar trying to get back to ancient Egypt. Or, entirely new arcs too.

Definitely. One thing that the best of VH1 and the best of VEI (at least Dysart and Venditti) share is that they are serious stories meant for adults. That seems to be the tone that the type of fans who come to this board respond to. Both VEI and DMG have done books with a variety of tones (comedic, silly, aimed at younger audiences, aimed at casual audiences, etc.), but those aren't the ones that people seem to think of as the classics.

[ManofTheAtom]

Maybe those, and Van Lente's A&A, were the highlights for the Shamdasani era, and Alien should be given the chance to create their own. Maybe find new voices, like Dinesh did, rather than bring back the ones that already had their say.

Yeah, I wouldn't be suggesting bringing back those creators. I'm more asking for the people that love those comics, what was it specifically about them that is worth building from?

I wouldn't mind a more serious version of A&A. And I'd like to see runs that focus more on the original character arcs from the VH 1 era, like Aric as the man out of time, the fight between the foundation and resistance, etc. Even Ivar trying to get back to ancient Egypt. Or, entirely new arcs too.

Definitely. One thing that the best of VH1 and the best of VEI (at least Dysart and Venditti) share is that they are serious stories meant for adults. That seems to be the tone that the type of fans who come to this board respond to. Both VEI and DMG have done books with a variety of tones (comedic, silly, aimed at younger audiences, aimed at casual audiences, etc.), but those aren't the ones that people seem to think of as the classics.

For sure. What made VEI better than VH 2 is that VEI told stories about the VALIANT characters while VH 2 turned them into copies of DC and Marvel characters. We need more writers like that.

[Ryan]

Maybe those, and Van Lente's A&A, were the highlights for the Shamdasani era, and Alien should be given the chance to create their own. Maybe find new voices, like Dinesh did, rather than bring back the ones that already had their say.

Yeah, I wouldn't be suggesting bringing back those creators. I'm more asking for the people that love those comics, what was it specifically about them that is worth building from?

I wouldn't mind a more serious version of A&A. And I'd like to see runs that focus more on the original character arcs from the VH 1 era, like Aric as the man out of time, the fight between the foundation and resistance, etc. Even Ivar trying to get back to ancient Egypt. Or, entirely new arcs too.

Definitely. One thing that the best of VH1 and the best of VEI (at least Dysart and Venditti) share is that they are serious stories meant for adults. That seems to be the tone that the type of fans who come to this board respond to. Both VEI and DMG have done books with a variety of tones (comedic, silly, aimed at younger audiences, aimed at casual audiences, etc.), but those aren't the ones that people seem to think of as the classics.

For sure. What made VEI better than VH 2 is that VEI told stories about the VALIANT characters while VH 2 turned them into copies of DC and Marvel characters. We need more writers like that.

Agreed

[leonmallett]

...creators like Layton, Hall, etc. should be given the chance to wrap up the stories of the VH 1 iterations of X-O Manowar and Shadowman (as detailed in Rai #0) in either mini-series form (like Q2) or graphic novels.

The true death of Shadowman need not be a massive line-wide crossover. It can be contained within the boundaries of a Shadowman-centric series.

Ideally, this should be done sooner rather than later. I do wish VEI had allowed Hall to do that rather than done Q2.

Why is that the best case scenario? Other than personal preferences what is the compelling case for looking backwards?

[ManofTheAtom]

...creators like Layton, Hall, etc. should be given the chance to wrap up the stories of the VH 1 iterations of X-O Manowar and Shadowman (as detailed in Rai #0) in either mini-series form (like Q2) or graphic novels.

The true death of Shadowman need not be a massive line-wide crossover. It can be contained within the boundaries of a Shadowman-centric series.

Ideally, this should be done sooner rather than later. I do wish VEI had allowed Hall to do that rather than done Q2.

Why is that the best case scenario? Other than personal preferences what is the compelling case for looking backwards?

It's not looking backwards, it's putting a pin on VH 1 and ending it the way that it should be ended; not by turning it into a knock-off of Silver Age DC like Nicieza did, but by telling the stories previewed in Rai #0.

[Ryan]

Why is that the best case scenario? Other than personal preferences what is the compelling case for looking backwards?

My opinion - VH1, despite its many flaws, has better worldbuilding and overall better characters. VEI has better overall quality and is more modern and has high quality individual writer runs. But the worldbuilding doesn't seem to connect in a lasting way.

Best case scenario - both universes would get a chance to continue and let the reader/fan interest decide what people want to see more of.

Realistic scenario - It's much more logical to continue the VEI universe and hope to recapture some of the magic from early VEI, while going in the new direction that Alien and their creators have planned. If their attempt is successful, who knows what other types of books could be possible in the future? If their attempt doesn't work, it's hard to imagine there will any kind of Valiant comics coming in the future.

[ManofTheAtom]

Why is that the best case scenario? Other than personal preferences what is the compelling case for looking backwards?

My opinion - VH1, despite its many flaws, has better worldbuilding and overall better characters. VEI has better overall quality and is more modern and has high quality individual writer runs. But the worldbuilding doesn't seem to connect in a lasting way.

Best case scenario - both universes would get a chance to continue and let the reader/fan interest decide what people want to see more of.

Realistic scenario - It's much more logical to continue the VEI universe and hope to recapture some of the magic from early VEI, while going in the new direction that Alien and their creators have planned. If their attempt is successful, who knows what other types of books could be possible in the future? If their attempt doesn't work, it's hard to imagine there will any kind of Valiant comics coming in the future.

Hopefully they'll find what they need to do to make it thrive.

[Ryan]

Why is that the best case scenario? Other than personal preferences what is the compelling case for looking backwards?

My opinion - VH1, despite its many flaws, has better worldbuilding and overall better characters. VEI has better overall quality and is more modern and has high quality individual writer runs. But the worldbuilding doesn't seem to connect in a lasting way.

Best case scenario - both universes would get a chance to continue and let the reader/fan interest decide what people want to see more of.

Realistic scenario - It's much more logical to continue the VEI universe and hope to recapture some of the magic from early VEI, while going in the new direction that Alien and their creators have planned. If their attempt is successful, who knows what other types of books could be possible in the future? If their attempt doesn't work, it's hard to imagine there will any kind of Valiant comics coming in the future.

Hopefully they'll find what they need to do to make it thrive.

Definitely. The people here helped VEI become a success, hopefully Alien can find that same connection with the fanbase.

[ManofTheAtom]

Why is that the best case scenario? Other than personal preferences what is the compelling case for looking backwards?

My opinion - VH1, despite its many flaws, has better worldbuilding and overall better characters. VEI has better overall quality and is more modern and has high quality individual writer runs. But the worldbuilding doesn't seem to connect in a lasting way.

Best case scenario - both universes would get a chance to continue and let the reader/fan interest decide what people want to see more of.

Realistic scenario - It's much more logical to continue the VEI universe and hope to recapture some of the magic from early VEI, while going in the new direction that Alien and their creators have planned. If their attempt is successful, who knows what other types of books could be possible in the future? If their attempt doesn't work, it's hard to imagine there will any kind of Valiant comics coming in the future.

Hopefully they'll find what they need to do to make it thrive.

Definitely. The people here helped VEI become a success, hopefully Alien can find that same connection with the fanbase.

If they ever come back.

[Ryan]

Why is that the best case scenario? Other than personal preferences what is the compelling case for looking backwards?

My opinion - VH1, despite its many flaws, has better worldbuilding and overall better characters. VEI has better overall quality and is more modern and has high quality individual writer runs. But the worldbuilding doesn't seem to connect in a lasting way.

Best case scenario - both universes would get a chance to continue and let the reader/fan interest decide what people want to see more of.

Realistic scenario - It's much more logical to continue the VEI universe and hope to recapture some of the magic from early VEI, while going in the new direction that Alien and their creators have planned. If their attempt is successful, who knows what other types of books could be possible in the future? If their attempt doesn't work, it's hard to imagine there will any kind of Valiant comics coming in the future.

Hopefully they'll find what they need to do to make it thrive.

Definitely. The people here helped VEI become a success, hopefully Alien can find that same connection with the fanbase.

If they ever come back.

Either they come back or they need to create new ones (preferably both heh). I would think these things need a fanbase to exist.

[ManofTheAtom]

Why is that the best case scenario? Other than personal preferences what is the compelling case for looking backwards?

My opinion - VH1, despite its many flaws, has better worldbuilding and overall better characters. VEI has better overall quality and is more modern and has high quality individual writer runs. But the worldbuilding doesn't seem to connect in a lasting way.

Best case scenario - both universes would get a chance to continue and let the reader/fan interest decide what people want to see more of.

Realistic scenario - It's much more logical to continue the VEI universe and hope to recapture some of the magic from early VEI, while going in the new direction that Alien and their creators have planned. If their attempt is successful, who knows what other types of books could be possible in the future? If their attempt doesn't work, it's hard to imagine there will any kind of Valiant comics coming in the future.

Hopefully they'll find what they need to do to make it thrive.

Definitely. The people here helped VEI become a success, hopefully Alien can find that same connection with the fanbase.

If they ever come back.

Either they come back or they need to create new ones (preferably both heh). I would think these things need a fanbase to exist.

I mean, to the board. It could be great if Ward and MartinAlien came back, but who knows if they will after the way they keep being harassed.

[Ryan]

I mean, to the board. It could be great if Ward and MartinAlien came back, but who knows if they will after the way they keep being harassed.

Harrassed is a pretty strong word. Anybody is always welcome to post here, but this has been a fan board since 2001, it should remain that way.

[lorddunlow]

VH1 isn't exactly a darling of "hardcore" comic fans... it's the darling of around 2500ish VH1 fans (mainly guys in their late 40s/early 50s).

Hey now... I'm early 40s, thank you very much...



Sent from my Pixel Fold using Tapatalk

[slack]

Hey now... I'm early 40s, thank you very much...



Sent from my Pixel Fold using Tapatalk

Outsider!

[grendeljd]

I meant that doing new Vh1 stories by new writers who never read them would be a massive undertaking and not worth the effort.

I agree with you on that point.

BUT… I’m also thinking that there’s gotta be someone out there who was either a fan in the 90’s and is a pro creator now, or one of the original creators still working today who would be good choices to go to for some sort of stories set in/picking up the original VH1 continuity. I’ll give a couple of modern examples of Marvel comics I’ve picked up that did that really well. Peter David recently did some Maestro mini-series and one Joe Fixit mini-series that fit into older continuity there and they were really great. Howard Mackie wrote some new stories of Danny Ketch’s Ghost Rider set in the 90’s era and they were also a blast to read in 2023. It can be done… it just might be hard to pull off, and I think the best we could hope for is a few mini-series set in the VH1 90’s era for a couple of the more popular characters.

I personally think that despite the heights of popularity Valiant achieved in the 90’s, we the remaining fans are only a niche audience at best now, and will only get a niche audience treatment at best.

I would rather the original universe just be left alone at this point rather than merged with VEI or given a half-hearted reboot. The VEI continuity is more current and updated, much smoother to just continue that and build on it.

I also agree with this sentiment in general, no merging. It is its own era of Valiant history now, not a thing to merge with VEI continuity. But I stand by my earlier point where it would be cool to see some new mini-series made just for those of us who want to see a classic 90’s continuity VALIANT story again.

I can’t see VAlienT trying to do anything other than rolling with the current VEI continuity, and I’m in support of that.

[grendeljd]

So question for you then, what would you consider the definitive Valiant to be?

That's gonna be slightly different for everyone.
but for me:
VH1 was garbage by Birthquake

Agreed. I gave up on what few VALIANT comics I was still reading by the time that era came around.

VH2 never held my attention (Solar did feel like a bad continuation of VH1 Solar, if that's "good")

Same here. I tried out Bloodshot & XO during that era but only an issue or two of each. Wasn’t into it.

VEI was high quality for longer than either previous iteration.

I mostly agree with you here too. It doesn’t quite have the same degree of planned interconnection that early VH1 had, as that seems to be a thing that all comic companies fear to some degree in recent decades, but the stories are often great and the modern spins on the characters were also mostly pretty great.

I loved Van Lentes A&A run but I am still a stickler for BWS’s take as the definitive way to do those two characters. Nothing else has come close to that.

I think I prefer the modern Shadowman over VH1 despite many hiccups in VEI stories about him. I like all the modern supernatural deadside stuff more than the classic street level vigilante vibe. I also remain a big fan of the original though - it’s one of few, if not the only VH1 title that I still have a complete run of.

Dysarts Harbinger & Imperium absolutely trump classic Harbinger for me, though once again I do *very much* enjoy the VH1 run. But then only particularly the pre-Unity issues (man I was so into that comic early on when it first came out back then!!!), and no further than #25.

I could get into more comparisons but I need to take a break from all this rambling, lol!

[Ryan]

I agree with you on that point.

BUT… I’m also thinking that there’s gotta be someone out there who was either a fan in the 90’s and is a pro creator now, or one of the original creators still working today who would be good choices to go to for some sort of stories set in/picking up the original VH1 continuity. I’ll give a couple of modern examples of Marvel comics I’ve picked up that did that really well. Peter David recently did some Maestro mini-series and one Joe Fixit mini-series that fit into older continuity there and they were really great. Howard Mackie wrote some new stories of Danny Ketch’s Ghost Rider set in the 90’s era and they were also a blast to read in 2023. It can be done… it just might be hard to pull off, and I think the best we could hope for is a few mini-series set in the VH1 90’s era for a couple of the more popular characters.

Most definitely. I didn't know about those series, but I remember Claremont once did something similar continuing his X-Men run from the 90's. And isn't there a new animated series that's continuing the 90's X-men cartoon? The precedent is clearly there.

I personally think that despite the heights of popularity Valiant achieved in the 90’s, we the remaining fans are only a niche audience at best now, and will only get a niche audience treatment at best.

That's true. But Valiant 2012 (VEI) is also a tiny niche audience. That's what Valiant is, a tiny niche audience within a tiny industry. They should embrace that, embrace their history, embrace their fans that love them. Stop doing predatory publishing practices that exploit their biggest supporters and stop acting like they're as big as Marvel.

I also agree with this sentiment in general, no merging. It is its own era of Valiant history now, not a thing to merge with VEI continuity. But I stand by my earlier point where it would be cool to see some new mini-series made just for those of us who want to see a classic 90’s continuity VALIANT story again.

I can’t see VAlienT trying to do anything other than rolling with the current VEI continuity, and I’m in support of that.

100% agree. They should just focus on making the current books as good as possible and try to build the fanbase back.

However it would be a huge treat for the old fans (and maybe bring some lapsed fans back) if they did a side imprint (Valiant Classic) or at least some minis set in Vh1. Shooter on Harbinger, Hall on Shadowman, Vanhook on Bloodshot. It wouldn't have to interfere with the current universe, in fact it might bring in different readers who would then want to check out the current universe books (cross promotion) and would help sell more of the Vh1 reprint collections.

[leonmallett]

...creators like Layton, Hall, etc. should be given the chance to wrap up the stories of the VH 1 iterations of X-O Manowar and Shadowman (as detailed in Rai #0) in either mini-series form (like Q2) or graphic novels.

The true death of Shadowman need not be a massive line-wide crossover. It can be contained within the boundaries of a Shadowman-centric series.

Ideally, this should be done sooner rather than later. I do wish VEI had allowed Hall to do that rather than done Q2.

Why is that the best case scenario? Other than personal preferences what is the compelling case for looking backwards?

It's not looking backwards, it's putting a pin on VH 1 and ending it the way that it should be ended; not by turning it into a knock-off of Silver Age DC like Nicieza did, but by telling the stories previewed in Rai #0.

Returning to a milieu defunct for over 25 years to give it a capstone ending is the definition of looking backwards.

[leonmallett]

I mean, to the board. It could be great if Ward and MartinAlien came back, but who knows if they will after the way they keep being harassed.

Harrassed is a pretty strong word. Anybody is always welcome to post here, but this has been a fan board since 2001, it should remain that way.

Objectively, it appeared toi me that they were subject to harassment here.

[ManofTheAtom]

...creators like Layton, Hall, etc. should be given the chance to wrap up the stories of the VH 1 iterations of X-O Manowar and Shadowman (as detailed in Rai #0) in either mini-series form (like Q2) or graphic novels.

The true death of Shadowman need not be a massive line-wide crossover. It can be contained within the boundaries of a Shadowman-centric series.

Ideally, this should be done sooner rather than later. I do wish VEI had allowed Hall to do that rather than done Q2.

Why is that the best case scenario? Other than personal preferences what is the compelling case for looking backwards?

It's not looking backwards, it's putting a pin on VH 1 and ending it the way that it should be ended; not by turning it into a knock-off of Silver Age DC like Nicieza did, but by telling the stories previewed in Rai #0.

Returning to a milieu defunct for over 25 years to give it a capstone ending is the definition of looking backwards.

Meh. I'd argue that it's really not. We've seen that sort of closure in other mediums. Look at Picard.

[Ryan]

I mean, to the board. It could be great if Ward and MartinAlien came back, but who knows if they will after the way they keep being harassed.

Harrassed is a pretty strong word. Anybody is always welcome to post here, but this has been a fan board since 2001, it should remain that way.

Objectively, it appeared toi me that they were subject to harassment here.

Harassment is a serious allegation to throw around. To make an accusation that serious, you should have to show a specific example.

This is a fan message board, so there's plenty of examples of people saying rude things or trolling each other, but being rude does not equal harassment.

Claiming people were harassed on this board without showing any proof is reckless and harmful to this community. If you can't back it up, then don't say sh!t like that.

Wow. Really, really bad anatomy. Every head is too small. Livewire's boobs are bigger than her head. The forearms are too short. X-O's right arm doesn't make any sense and what's up with his green face? Glass? Okay, but why? This looks so C grade. Remember when Lewis LaRosa used to draw these characters...

Is this harassment to you? If so you need to check your dictionary.