Re-reading: Harbinger #25

[xoken]

I thought we could do a book a day (that way people can read one every day or catch up on weekends), talk about it on its own, in the context of whats next, in regards to what expectations it creates and vote on how good it is. I don't have to be the one that posts everyday. If I miss a day or if someone wants to take over please do

For voting think of your single favourite comic book (not just VALIANT) as the benchmark - thats a 10 - and grade according to that.

The voting (I'm hoping) will help new readers make more educated descisions. If this turkey files maybe we can even do a list of the books according to average voting grade.

Make sure to mention what you like'd about the book, what you didn't, what you wish they would have done, your favourite panels, lines of dialogue, little bits of trivia etc.

Harbinger #25

[ManofTheAtom]

Six. I liked it but I feel it missed something, like this wasn't the right story for this anniversary issue.

The confrontation between Sting and Harada should have happened down the road, not this soon.

This issue felt rushed in that it feels like what it is, a way to get rid of the old characters to introduce new ones.

I guess what must have happened is that without Shooter they didn't know in what direction to take the title, so they decided to get rid of Sting and all the others and replace them with new characters.

[magnusr]

I guess what must have happened is that without Shooter they didn't know in what direction to take the title, so they decided to get rid of Sting and all the others and replace them with new characters.

It's been mentioned that Shooter before Valiant made a movie treatment with the kids, and that because of that it just might have been legally better to change the direction.

/Magnus

[ManofTheAtom]

I read something like that, that Harbinger started as movie idea.

Harbinger after 25 just wasn't the same, it tried too hard to be more like the X-Men by giving it a school setting.

[Todd Luck]

Harbinger 25. Groan.

Let's get the good out of the way first. There's some great use of psychic powers here. There's grand epic uses telekinses. Some very good fight scenes (though one wonders why Sting hadn't been able to do that to the Eggbreakers before). Simpson's art holds up very well.

Okay end of the good stuff.

Now to one of the most horrible moments in Valiant history. We find out that the last 24 issues were a joke. Harada was controling them the enitre time, giving Pete what he wanted. So all those times when friendship and loyality seemed to conquer the team's differences weren't real, it was really mind control. And, of course, since Harada was keeping Pete happy, he had Kris and Torque have an affair because that's exactly what would please Pete. What bull *SQUEE*!

And what was all this for? Because Harada wanted them to gather Harbingers for him. Oh yeah, so all this was so he could get a whole three new Harbingers, two of which he already had on file. Give me a break .

It takes everything that made the original concept work and destroys it. Everyone's mind wiped or powerless at the end.

I wanted to say the bad balances the good here because their are some pretty awesome battles but then I remember this is the issue that destroyed this series and *SQUEE* on everything Shooter did with these characters. A 4.

[Todd Luck]

I guess what must have happened is that without Shooter they didn't know in what direction to take the title, so they decided to get rid of Sting and all the others and replace them with new characters.

It's been mentioned that Shooter before Valiant made a movie treatment with the kids, and that because of that it just might have been legally better to change the direction.

/Magnus

Just to clarify you're saying Shooter mentioned a movie treatment but you're inferring the legal thing right?

I've never seen the treatment so I don't know how close it was to the comic. But lets say it's spot on.

So here's the original concept: Sting, Zeplin, etc are Harbingers, the next step in human evolution who have psychic powers. They're renegades on the run from Toyo Harada, a powerful psychic who secretly controls the world through his seemingly benevolent Harbinger Foundation and uses it to recruit Harbingers to his cause.

New concept: Zeplin, etc are Harbingers, the next step in human evolution who get have psychic powers. They work for Toyo Harada, a powerful psychic who secretly controls the world through his seemingly benevolent Harbinger Foundation and uses it to recruit Harbingers to his cause. After awhile they rebel, go renegade, and are on the run from him.

Sorry, legally, changing it that little would offer them no protection. The change would've had to be as drastic as what happened in Secret Weapons to protect them from a copy right suit if one was threatened.

[myron]

dreck, absolute dreck...what a comic book way to destroy something..."lets just mind-wipe everyone in the comic! Then we can do what we want...you'd need to mind wipe the readers too...bleck.

[ManofTheAtom]

Well, in that regard VALIANT was a step ahead of DC, lol.

Mind wipes have become all the rage now, lol.

[magnusr]

Just to clarify you're saying Shooter mentioned a movie treatment but you're inferring the legal thing right?

Kind of, I'm saying my memory was so sketchy that I needed to be unclear in my post. It is definately something inferred. The words "I think" are notable in the quote below, that I have now pulled out of my reference library. The quote is btw in response to the interviewer telling Jim that the series is revamped. The quote is not based on any comparison between the old and the new concept. That was my inferral. I'm glad you are here to focus on what needs clarification, or what is just plain wrong and needs fixing. Thanks.

Basically, Harbinger was created because I wrote a screen treatment in 1988, which is a year before Voyager even started and Harbinger was created basically as a screen treatment. That treatment was copyright Jim Shooter. No documents exist and nothing ever said that I contributed Harbinger to Voyager. So basically, you could make the case that Voyager was using it, what you'd call "at will," because I allowed them to. Since I left there, the guy who runs it is a lawyer and I don't think it's lost on him that he has a shaky legal position on Harbinger. So I think that they're going to make a very determined effort to try to get it as far away from what I created as possible to therefore limit their exposure in case I should ever decide to assert my rights.

/Magnus

[ManofTheAtom]

He should have sued them for it anyway, if for nothing more than to stop them from screwing it up.

Maybe this is why it took so long for there to be a Harbinger in VH 2 and why Faith had an Extreme Makeover, Pete was paid a visit by the Queer guys, and Harada was so drastically changed both in his apperances in Eternal Warriors, Troublemakers, and Quantum & Woody.

[Unblessed]

Well, in that regard VALIANT was a step ahead of DC, lol.

Mind wipes have become all the rage now, lol.

Dr. Light's going to get you. Then Batman will be after you, too. Mind wipes are no laughing matter.

~The Unblessed Soul

[ManofTheAtom]

It does give a new meaning to the term "brain washing"

[Todd Luck]

Just to clarify you're saying Shooter mentioned a movie treatment but you're inferring the legal thing right?

Kind of, I'm saying my memory was so sketchy that I needed to be unclear in my post. It is definately something inferred. The words "I think" are notable in the quote below, that I have now pulled out of my reference library. The quote is btw in response to the interviewer telling Jim that the series is revamped. The quote is not based on any comparison between the old and the new concept. That was my inferral. I'm glad you are here to focus on what needs clarification, or what is just plain wrong and needs fixing. Thanks.

Basically, Harbinger was created because I wrote a screen treatment in 1988, which is a year before Voyager even started and Harbinger was created basically as a screen treatment. That treatment was copyright Jim Shooter. No documents exist and nothing ever said that I contributed Harbinger to Voyager. So basically, you could make the case that Voyager was using it, what you'd call "at will," because I allowed them to. Since I left there, the guy who runs it is a lawyer and I don't think it's lost on him that he has a shaky legal position on Harbinger. So I think that they're going to make a very determined effort to try to get it as far away from what I created as possible to therefore limit their exposure in case I should ever decide to assert my rights.

/Magnus

Ah, thank you . So that's probably where DF1 got that theory. Of course I doubt Shooter would have have known at the time the changes were mainly in the characters and not in the overall concept (there's still Harbngers, the Foundation, Harada, ect). He also probably wouldn't know most of the other books went through similar radical make-overs. In a few interviews, Shooter said he didn't read most of the Valaints published after he left (though he did bone up on them when he was hired to do U2000).

[kalmank]

harbinger #25 is one of my favorites. i loved it when sting takes on like 30 harbingers and says "you're not even in my league"

[Todd Luck]

He should have sued them for it anyway, if for nothing more than to stop them from screwing it up.

Maybe this is why it took so long for there to be a Harbinger in VH 2 and why Faith had an Extreme Makeover, Pete was paid a visit by the Queer guys, and Harada was so drastically changed both in his apperances in Eternal Warriors, Troublemakers, and Quantum & Woody.

Was there any VH-2 that even resembled their VH-1 counterpart visually? Bloodshot had the same albino skin and a crew cut but he was an ugly giant. That's about close as they came.

I would think Harbinger would've taken longer to show up because of the low sales of the original series (once the collector's bubble burst). That's probably the reason why VH-2 didn't start with books like Geomancer, Rai, Archer & Armstrong, ect. Not that it did them much good sales-wise...

[ManofTheAtom]

Was there any VH-2 that even resembled their VH-1 counterpart visually? Bloodshot had the same albino skin and a crew cut but he was an ugly giant. That's about close as they came.

I would think Harbinger would've taken longer to show up because of the low sales of the original series (once the collector's bubble burst). That's probably the reason why VH-2 didn't start with books like Geomancer, Rai, Archer & Armstrong, ect. Not that it did them much good sales-wise...

VH 2 Archer came close to resembling the VH 1 version, and VH 2 Aram wore the VH 1's clothes in an issue of Eternal Warriors.

[Brother J]

Since I just read this again last night and enjoyed it, I thought I would dig up this thread. Boy, did you guys trash this book or what?

Now to one of the most horrible moments in Valiant history. We find out that the last 24 issues were a joke. Harada was controling them the enitre time, giving Pete what he wanted. So all those times when friendship and loyality seemed to conquer the team's differences weren't real, it was really mind control. And, of course, since Harada was keeping Pete happy, he had Kris and Torque have an affair because that's exactly what would please Pete. What bull *SQUEE*!

And what was all this for? Because Harada wanted them to gather Harbingers for him. Oh yeah, so all this was so he could get a whole three new Harbingers, two of which he already had on file. Give me a break .

It takes everything that made the original concept work and destroys it. Everyone's mind wiped or powerless at the end.

I wanted to say the bad balances the good here because their are some pretty awesome battles but then I remember this is the issue that destroyed this series and *SQUEE* on everything Shooter did with these characters. A 4.

I'm curious, why do we assume everything Harada said is gospel? The guy is trying to destroy Sting. Wouldn't a good way to hurt him be to tell him that all of his struggles have been for nothing and that he has been working for Harbinger unknowingly all this time? I always took it to be Harada trying to mind-*SQUEE* Sting while he was also pounding on his brain with his psionic assault.

Todd, maybe you can explain why you feel so certain that Harada is telling the truth. Considering Harada had so many other things going on with his Harbinger Foundation, I find it unlikely that he constantly kept control over Kris and the other renegades for the entire time they were with Pete. The affair with Torque would seem to confirm that, since I'm sure that wasn't something Toyo had in mind.

[user1463]

To me, this issue marked the end of the Valiant Comics I loved and the beginning of something, different. I also remember waiting for this issue to come out with baited breath because my teenage mind knew that whatever happened, nothing would be the same ever again. And I was right.

To be fair, this comic contains one of my favorite moments. The only comic villain death I enjoyed and looked forward to more than Rock's was probably Jody's in Preacher and even then its a toss-up between the two. I hated Rock. "Burn in Hell" indeed.

The ending and what came after struck me (and still does) as a cop out. Harada's later recovery and Peter's return as his thrall only served to strengthen that belief and further turned me off to what Valiant Comics were becoming until I finally stopped reading. Harbinger #25 marked the end of "real" Valiant Comics for me.

[The Harbinger]

Same here, it really sucked that he was able to kill Screen

[xodacia81]

Harada should've been either DEAD or in a coma forever.

[magnusr]

Harada should've been either DEAD or in a coma forever.

There's always the issue of Rai 0.

/Magnus

[xodacia81]

Harada should've been either DEAD or in a coma forever.

There's always the issue of Rai 0.

/Magnus

DANG IT! I knew I was forgetting something...and how could I forget THE BIBLE