Dead ISN'T Dead anymore?

[cray_ws]

When you gotta use the dictionary to defend the plausibility of a fictional story....something is wrong. I fear this is the beginning of Valiant's marketing taking over the editorial common sense. I don't know how long I can sustain being entertained by Valiant's incomprehensible theatricals.

[jeremycoe]

When you gotta use the dictionary to defend the plausibility of a fictional story....something is wrong. I fear this is the beginning of Valiant's marketing taking over the editorial common sense. I don't know how long I can sustain being entertained by Valiant's incomprehensible theatricals.

I'm not defending the plausibility of anything. Comic books as a whole are pretty much the opposite of plausible. If I really thought there was a nanite-infused military weapon wandering around in Colorado I wouldn't be reading comic books, I'd be hiding.

[Keith]

Thought I'd contribute to the discussion with Dino's tweets on the matter:

Dead is Dead is not about making sure someone stays dead. It's about keeping a promise to the reader to preserve consequence. Without going into spoilers on Dead Drop I can say that what happened is no different than Ray Garrison dying and being brought back as Bloodshot or Gilad dying several times in Unity & returning. It is, however, very different than say a certain member of the Harbinger Renegades returning post Death of a Renegade. Hope that helps.

[X-O HoboJoe]

Thought I'd contribute to the discussion with Dino's tweets on the matter:

Dead is Dead is not about making sure someone stays dead. It's about keeping a promise to the reader to preserve consequence. Without going into spoilers on Dead Drop I can say that what happened is no different than Ray Garrison dying and being brought back as Bloodshot or Gilad dying several times in Unity & returning. It is, however, very different than say a certain member of the Harbinger Renegades returning post Death of a Renegade. Hope that helps.

There it is. Start taking things too literally and you kill a ton of creative possibilities.

[Dallow Spicer1]

Thought I'd contribute to the discussion with Dino's tweets on the matter:

Dead is Dead is not about making sure someone stays dead. It's about keeping a promise to the reader to preserve consequence. Without going into spoilers on Dead Drop I can say that what happened is no different than Ray Garrison dying and being brought back as Bloodshot or Gilad dying several times in Unity & returning. It is, however, very different than say a certain member of the Harbinger Renegades returning post Death of a Renegade. Hope that helps.

There it is. Start taking things too literally and you kill a ton of creative possibilities.

What Dinesh says makes total sense. However, as of yet there's no explanation offered as to how Beta Max a) can exist or b) came back to life.

We all know that comic characters are make believe, but there still has to be an explanation of some sorts which the reader can 'buy into', whether that be pseudo science (Bloodshot), genetic mutation (harbingers), sci fi (XO) or magic (Shadowman). Beta Max appears to be a throwaway concept which doesn't follow any 'comic book logic' that the reader can accept (unless a writer would care to explain his origin and the miracle which allows him to be brought back up life!). If they simply said he was all machine then I could go with that (sort of) but not half human!

I guess some readers will accept anything and don't need logic to enjoy the books. Each to his own!

[Donovan]

Focus Group Guy: [after showing the kids some Itchy & Scratchy cartoons]: Okay, how many of the kids would like Itchy & Scratchy to deal with real life problems like the ones you face every day?

[the kids cheer]

Focus Group Guy: And who would like to see them do just the opposite, getting into far-out situations involving robots and magic powers.

[the kid kids cheer again]

Focus Group Guy: So you want a realistic down-to-earth show that's completely off the wall and swarming with magic robots?

[lorddunlow]

When you gotta use the dictionary to defend the plausibility of a fictional story....something is wrong. I fear this is the beginning of Valiant's marketing taking over the editorial common sense. I don't know how long I can sustain being entertained by Valiant's incomprehensible theatricals.

While we're discounting the viability of definitions from a dictionary, let's just throw the whole English language out as well. That makes sense...


Let's not be silly.

If we're saying BetaMax is part of the VEI universe - get over, he is - then the way he's been described is he's essentially more machine than man anyway. He's essentially Frankenstein's monster made with cobbled together 80s electronics. It's silly, but it is canon. I don't see that he can really be killed in so much as rebooted to a new OS or something. They'd just rebuild him with whatever parts survived. Now, if he was vaporized in the sun, for instance, he'd be dead (unless they had a backup - but then he'd be all machine, so not really the exact same character anyway).

Just my

[lorddunlow]

After typing that, I see Dino has already addressed the issue more succinctly...

[Dallow Spicer1]

Focus Group Guy: [after showing the kids some Itchy & Scratchy cartoons]: Okay, how many of the kids would like Itchy & Scratchy to deal with real life problems like the ones you face every day?

[the kids cheer]

Focus Group Guy: And who would like to see them do just the opposite, getting into far-out situations involving robots and magic powers.

[the kid kids cheer again]

Focus Group Guy: So you want a realistic down-to-earth show that's completely off the wall and swarming with magic robots?

[Sven the Returned]

Beta Max is ridiculous as a character and shouldn't have even made it into the Valiant U in the first place! I wish Beta Max would take the Goat and Beast Brigade and take off to a separate universe where nonsense concepts live happily together!

But yeah, dead should mean dead. Editors becoming a bit sloppy that they allowed this to happen (and VERY cheaply too)!

what is wrong with having some diversity in a universe? if you don't like the non serious titles then don't read them

Because it's inconsistent to have them in the same universe. XO, Bloodshot, Rai etc are 'serious' properties yet they inhabit the same Universe as Beta Max, a very poorly designed throwaway character.

As for the Goat, I stopped reading Q&W but unfortunately VEI insist on dragging this joke out longer and having it appear in events such as Book of Death.

I'd prefer them to be contained in a separate imprint and give people the choice on whether they want that kind of character, rather than mixing XO and Beta Max (for example).

Like i said, Valiant should have a mainstreamverse, Occultverse (Shadowman, Mirrage) and weirdverse (Q&W, A&A).

I find that approach to be unrealistic. Real life has a variety of tones and a fleshed out shared fictional universe should have that too. It's not like the characters can't all be written in different ways depending on context.

You don't think the fact those goofy factions rule the world takes away from Bloodshot a bit? I think he would fit into an Alex Jonesian conspiracy world much better (Bilderburgers, Masons, Biggest Banks) opposed to one with killer nuns and tvhead bad guys.

[Brapbrap]

aside from PRS, The Vine and The 1% all of the sect factions don't really do anything except for be incompetent, pre-Omegas Harada seemed to have more sway in world affairs than any sect faction.

[ShadowTuga]

Ignore at will.
Don't want to beat a dead horse, but this was something on the level of Delinquents for me.
WTF Valiant????? X-O Manowar and Archer Omega Level-whatever-he-is both saved by a regular no-powers cop. And then, *SQUEE* logic- that dude's alive again and upgraded. Because he was sooooo fun to write? I dug the 3rd issue (mostly because of the "oh this is actually tragic" effect that a dorky character's death had on me) but this was terrible.

I have no clue on what was the selling point of this story. WTF was the story about anyway????

[hunter_peterson]

aside from PRS, The Vine and The 1% all of the sect factions don't really do anything except for be incompetent, pre-Omegas Harada seemed to have more sway in world affairs than any sect faction.

That's not entirely true, it's just that it's mostly behind the scenes. The turmoil caused by their infighting during Sect Civil War showed that the day to day running of the world is largely orchestrated by the Sect. Separately, they are silly and punchable, but as a conglomerate of conspiracy, they are very effective. Which works well, I think especially because the Sect factions themselves have a variety of tones- PRS and the Vine are members, after all.

[ChiptheRipper]

Focus Group Guy: [after showing the kids some Itchy & Scratchy cartoons]: Okay, how many of the kids would like Itchy & Scratchy to deal with real life problems like the ones you face every day?

[the kids cheer]

Focus Group Guy: And who would like to see them do just the opposite, getting into far-out situations involving robots and magic powers.

[the kid kids cheer again]

Focus Group Guy: So you want a realistic down-to-earth show that's completely off the wall and swarming with magic robots?

That pretty much sums up this thread

Also, for a bunch of people who hate Dead Drop more than anything (except maybe Days of Steel), you guys sure care alot about what happened in Dead Drop
just saying dude...

[ShadowTuga]

Also, for a bunch of people who hate Dead Drop more than anything (except maybe Days of Steel), you guys sure care alot about what happened in Dead Drop
just saying dude...

Some of us do really care about the characters' treatment by other writers, specially A-list like Aric and Archer. And the consistency of a shared "playgroud"- this is what sold me on VEI as a comics' universe 3 years+ ago.

I would have no problems if we had 20+ titles every month and this appeared. As it is, it's more than 10% of the company's output. 10% that sucked big time, imho. Not the first time I feel cheated because my expectations were high, but the rest of the line makes up for stuff like this, thankfully. I buy all Valiant books and I expect them all to be a fun read. If the company was bigger and I wasn't all-in, I'd give this a pass, 'cept for the Dead Not Dead part. As it is, it's 10% of Valiant's books.
DD was just the laziest excuse for a comic I've seen in a while. I have no idea why the editors did not simply said "NO!"

[Sven the Returned]

aside from PRS, The Vine and The 1% all of the sect factions don't really do anything except for be incompetent, pre-Omegas Harada seemed to have more sway in world affairs than any sect faction.

That's not entirely true, it's just that it's mostly behind the scenes. The turmoil caused by their infighting during Sect Civil War showed that the day to day running of the world is largely orchestrated by the Sect. Separately, they are silly and punchable, but as a conglomerate of conspiracy, they are very effective. Which works well, I think especially because the Sect factions themselves have a variety of tones- PRS and the Vine are members, after all.

What does not work for me is the way they look, you could not put these baddies into a serious Bloodshot movie and not have people complaining about inconsistency of tones.

[lorddunlow]

The funny thing about saying the Section factions are having realistic is that they are actually based on real world whack jobs and secret societies. FVL drew it all from the real world.

[hunter_peterson]

aside from PRS, The Vine and The 1% all of the sect factions don't really do anything except for be incompetent, pre-Omegas Harada seemed to have more sway in world affairs than any sect faction.

That's not entirely true, it's just that it's mostly behind the scenes. The turmoil caused by their infighting during Sect Civil War showed that the day to day running of the world is largely orchestrated by the Sect. Separately, they are silly and punchable, but as a conglomerate of conspiracy, they are very effective. Which works well, I think especially because the Sect factions themselves have a variety of tones- PRS and the Vine are members, after all.

What does not work for me is the way they look, you could not put these baddies into a serious Bloodshot movie and not have people complaining about inconsistency of tones.

See, I think you could, but it would be a very different kind of Bloodshot movie. I could see them working if the tone was similar to Kingsman. But naturally, if you want a more comic-accurate approach to the character then you'd focus on his villains instead, who generally align in tone with him. So it's a moot point, really.

That said, people took Mad Max seriously despite the post Apocalyptic gimp-chic. So as long as everything is a bit ridiculous (which Bloodshot is) it's possible to have the audience suspend their disbelief for the weirder aspects of the VU.

The funny thing about saying the Section factions are having realistic is that they are actually based on real world whack jobs and secret societies. FVL drew it all from the real world.

I know, right? Reality is so ridiculous!

[jmatt]

I agree, there is nothing inconsistent about a universe full of all kinds of characters. It's not like the "serious" characters are necessarily more "realistic". Ridiculous things existing alongside serious things doesn't make the serious things less serious, it actually provides a useful contrast that makes the universe as a whole more three-dimensional. Diversity of tone, IMHO, enhances the aspects of different properties that make them distinct.

Case in point, this little thing called Guardians of the Galaxy with a talking raccoon and his tree buddy. How many billions did that make?

Persoanlly, I'm glad Max didn't DROP DEAD.

[bygranddesign]

I think Dinesh and VEI realized when they were re-launching that as much as they love what Jim Shooter was trying to accomplish with a more realistic take on a Superhero universe with consistency across the line in tone and style ... that VEI had to work differently if they were to make this universe work.

For better or worse, they don't have that person with a singular vision that Jim Shooter had ... its much more collaborative effort and much more in trusting the writers and giving them the freedom to create the best stories possible with these characters.

There have been some continuity issues ... but overall the universe has been a great success. And although i'm more partial to the idea that the universe be more grounded and realistic in tone and style ... if a story works ... then I can adjust.

From a publishing standpoint -- it makes sense to be more diversified. It makes better business sense.

You have some corners of the universe in which you have to suspend disbelief a little more ... but if I LOL a couple of times its worth it.

Overall, the line right now is hitting on all cylinders -- so I'll keep enjoying the ride

[Spylocke]

What if Laurel and Hardy appeared in the Walking Dead, would that work well?

Then I would watch The Walking Dead again. If Ollie hits Rick with his hat every time he's a *SQUEE* the show would win me back. Might as well throw in Groucho leading around a chained zombie Harpo.

"Last night I shot a walker in my pajamas. How he got in my pajamas, I'll never know."

[geocarr]

I have no problems with the various VEI characters sharing the same universe despite their differences. Alcoholics Anonymous has a saying, "Take what you need and leave the rest." that seems to also apply beautifully to this discussion.

[cray_ws]

That pretty much sums up this thread

Also, for a bunch of people who hate Dead Drop more than anything (except maybe Days of Steel), you guys sure care alot about what happened in Dead Drop
just saying dude...

It's really not about caring or being loyal to whatever Valiant puts out (the latter seems very evident in this forum). But whether we actively allow our intelligence to be insulted by poorly conceived stories. I say that subjectively because some people really enjoyed the illogical conception of Dead Drop. I think Valiant had good intentions with Dead Drop, but for me personally I thought it was insulting my common sense. Thing is I have no issues with the process of suspending my beliefs for science fiction genre. I just like my fiction rooted in some plausibility or at the very least a believable rationale. Otherwise it's all just moronic silliness, which is not what I expect from Valiant when it comes to comedy. I realize Archer & Armstrong and Delinquents were filled with silliness, but I didn't expect X-O to be part of that vein of writing. For that, I'm turned off by it.

[Dallow Spicer1]

That pretty much sums up this thread

Also, for a bunch of people who hate Dead Drop more than anything (except maybe Days of Steel), you guys sure care alot about what happened in Dead Drop
just saying dude...

It's really not about caring or being loyal to whatever Valiant puts out (the latter seems very evident in this forum). But whether we actively allow our intelligence to be insulted by poorly conceived stories. I say that subjectively because some people really enjoyed the illogical conception of Dead Drop. I think Valiant had good intentions with Dead Drop, but for me personally I thought it was insulting my common sense. Thing is I have no issues with the process of suspending my beliefs for science fiction genre. I just like my fiction rooted in some plausibility or at the very least a believable rationale. Otherwise it's all just moronic silliness, which is not what I expect from Valiant when it comes to comedy. I realize Archer & Armstrong and Delinquents were filled with silliness, but I didn't expect X-O to be part of that vein of writing. For that, I'm turned off by it.

+1 well articulated!

[Sven the Returned]

aside from PRS, The Vine and The 1% all of the sect factions don't really do anything except for be incompetent, pre-Omegas Harada seemed to have more sway in world affairs than any sect faction.

Wasn't there a panel that stated they caused world wide financial panic and social unrest with their sect war?