Someone explain the Shadowman hate to a noob

[ChiptheRipper]

Hi everyone, I just started reading Valiant with the new titles in 2012. I've read everything so far, and enjoyed most of it. But then I come on here and see pure vitriol for Shadowman, particularly End Times. Personally, I liked it. I thought it was an amazing twist to have the hero be pushed to his limits, cross the line (his dad), and then still fail and none of it was even justified. And with Operation Deadside I am beyond excited to see Jack's redemption.

So basically could someone explain the hate? The characterization doesn't seem off to me, Jack is clearly an unhinged individual, and who wouldn't be after the things he's seen? I thought the point of Valiant was the realism, and realistically I don't see how Shadowman could have a happy or even neutral ending. I'm not trying to argue or defend the comics, I am just a new reader who had absolutely no problem with them and was shocked to see how much everyone here dislikes it.

Thanks for reading, I've just always wondered this and finally felt like I'd been here long enough that people might actually reply to this if I posted it

[greg]

I would guess that the Shadowman disappointment is relative to Jack's characterization in Shadowman (1991-1996). He was conflicted, yes, but ultimately he was making the world a better place. It was a cleaner delineation of good and bad. Jack was good.

The concern that Valiant fans have is that they were on Jack's side in the 1990s. If Valiant wants to tell the story of an unhinged individual who can't handle the role of hero that comes from being the Shadowman, they didn't have to call him Jack.

[ChiptheRipper]

... So people are just upset that the reboot isn't exactly like the original version?

[greg]

... So people are just upset that the reboot isn't exactly like the original version?

The reboot claimed that it was keeping "the core of the characters"... updated, but keeping the core.
That's true of basically every rebooted Valiant character... and it has worked for fans.
Except for Jack. Fans don't feel this Jack keeps the core of Jack's character.

[cray_ws]

... So people are just upset that the reboot isn't exactly like the original version?

Pretty much. I liked End Times too.

[BugsySig]

I thought the bigger problem was inconsistency. When Zircher left, the book began to meander as Jordan tried to tie in too many story-lines. The art suffered as well, and with those factors came delays (as well as 2 of the best VEI issues to date in the "filler" Shadowman #0 and #10). Then Jordan was leaving the title and tried his best to tie up as much as possible, but in doing so lost a lot of the characterization he was going for. When Milligan took over it was a soft reboot that felt unnecessary and jumbled up even more of the plots and characters. Finally, End Times ended with a total destruction of Jack's character.

If you search hard enough, there's a thread that Justin Jordan actually replied in and gave some very insightful comments as to what he felt went wrong with the title. Its worth a read if you can find it. (The "Hi I'm Justin Jordan" thread, I think).

[ChiptheRipper]

... So people are just upset that the reboot isn't exactly like the original version?

The reboot claimed that it was keeping "the core of the characters"... updated, but keeping the core.
That's true of basically every rebooted Valiant character... and it has worked for fans.
Except for Jack. Fans don't feel this Jack keeps the core of Jack's character.

Okay, thanks for explaining Greg, I really appreciate it. I don't agree with it personally, but I understand where people are coming from now.

Pretty much. I liked End Times too.

I wish more superheros would totally and completely fail, it makes the stakes higher and I get more invested when there's no guarantee everything will work out and return to the status quo at the end of the arc.

[leonmallett]

I thought the bigger problem was inconsistency. When Zircher left, the book began to meander as Jordan tried to tie in too many story-lines. The art suffered as well, and with those factors came delays (as well as 2 of the best VEI issues to date in the "filler" Shadowman #0 and #10). Then Jordan was leaving the title and tried his best to tie up as much as possible, but in doing so lost a lot of the characterization he was going for. When Milligan took over it was a soft reboot that felt unnecessary and jumbled up even more of the plots and characters. Finally, End Times ended with a total destruction of Jack's character.

If you search hard enough, there's a thread that Justin Jordan actually replied in and gave some very insightful comments as to what he felt went wrong with the title. Its worth a read if you can find it. (The "Hi I'm Justin Jordan" thread, I think).

This sums it up for me; it is not that Jack was not a hero or not able to live up the heroic mantle, it was the car crash of heavy-handed changes and character ret-cons that Milligan added over 8 issues that wrecked the viability of the character IMHO.

[ChiptheRipper]

I thought the bigger problem was inconsistency. When Zircher left, the book began to meander as Jordan tried to tie in too many story-lines. The art suffered as well, and with those factors came delays (as well as 2 of the best VEI issues to date in the "filler" Shadowman #0 and #10). Then Jordan was leaving the title and tried his best to tie up as much as possible, but in doing so lost a lot of the characterization he was going for. When Milligan took over it was a soft reboot that felt unnecessary and jumbled up even more of the plots and characters. Finally, End Times ended with a total destruction of Jack's character.

If you search hard enough, there's a thread that Justin Jordan actually replied in and gave some very insightful comments as to what he felt went wrong with the title. Its worth a read if you can find it. (The "Hi I'm Justin Jordan" thread, I think).

This sums it up for me; it is not that Jack was not a hero or not able to live up the heroic mantle, it was the car crash of heavy-handed changes and character ret-cons that Milligan added over 8 issues that wrecked the viability of the character IMHO.

That's part of what was confusing me. I disliked pretty much most of the second half of Shadowman's run, and thought End Times was a decent attempt at salvaging it and leaving a set-up for someone else to come fix. But then I come on here and people say End Times was the worst part of it Thanks for explaining guys, I'll try to read through that thread when I find some time.

[sonicdan]

...plus the new Jack didn't play Saxophone.

[dornwolf]

For me it's always going to be how it was handled. A lot of what happened felt just grafted on and forced.

[leonmallett]

...plus the new Jack didn't play Saxophone.

Some of us were okay with that. It felt like an Englehart obsession/fixation more than anything to me.*


*Given that at around the same time, Night Man also played sax....

[sonicdan]

...plus the new Jack didn't play Saxophone.

Some of us were okay with that. It felt like an Englehart obsession/fixation more than anything to me.*


*Given that at around the same time, Night Man also played sax....

Yeah that's understandable. I do like how jazz music would influence Shadowman's fighting style.

[greg]

...plus the new Jack didn't play Saxophone.

Some of us were okay with that. It felt like an Englehart obsession/fixation more than anything to me.*


*Given that at around the same time, Night Man also played sax....

Yeah that's understandable. I do like how jazz music would influence Shadowman's fighting style.

It's important to note that Night Man came out a year after Shadowman.

[Ricomortis]

<---------- don't know if you can tell, but I like Shadowman!


Ohhhh, and down below as well. V

[jmatt]

I agree, End Times wasn't so bad. I'm sure I could go back and find a nitpick or two that I posted but I don't recalling hating it.

The title was struggling and they needed a way to wind it down for a while.

[Tony_H]

I wish more superheros would totally and completely fail, it makes the stakes higher and I get more invested when there's no guarantee everything will work out and return to the status quo at the end of the arc.

That's an interesting observation to make about Milligan's end run.
Like you, I came to VEI's Shadowman fresh, never having read the V1 or Acclaim iterations. I liked the Zircher and Jordan stories quite a bit, and when Milligan's monthlies were coming out, it seemed to me that he handled the character clumsily after the editorial staff mismanaged the transition into his term. However, reading your comments, Chip, as well as some of the others above, I'm going to re-read those issues this year. First impressions aren't always accurate...the older I get, I trust those less and less.

[agent_graves]

To each's own, my opinion isn't based on any stories prior to VEI, for me, editorial, has to fall on the sword, there wasn't a clear vision for Shadowman. Like how Lemire came in with two years worth of stories already mapped out for Bloodshot. Jordan & Zircher, co-writing, was a bad idea, (obviously, Zircher, ran back to Dc, were he's no longer writing) but Jordan really flexed hard when he was riding solo, imho, Shadowman #0 & #10, are two of the Best issues VEI has published since 2012, you'd be hard pressed to find two better issues, along with Bleeding Monk #0, those issues were Amazing...

[BugsySig]

To each's own, my opinion isn't based on any stories prior to VEI, for me, editorial, has to fall on the sword, there wasn't a clear vision for Shadowman. Like how Lemire came in with two years worth of stories already mapped out for Bloodshot. Jordan & Zircher, co-writing, was a bad idea, (obviously, Zircher, ran back to Dc, were he's no longer writing) but Jordan really flexed hard when he was riding solo, imho, Shadowman #0 & #10, are two of the Best issues VEI has published since 2012, you'd be hard pressed to find two better issues, along with Bleeding Monk #0, those issues were Amazing...

I'd agree with all of that. The co-writing thing rarely works unless the writers have a history together (like Abnett and Lanning, Pak and FVL, or even Kindt and Lemire). One of the comments from both Jordan and Zircher was that there were "too many cooks in the kitchen" on Shadowman. While I thought the initial arc was pretty good, that fact seemed apparent over the next 8 issues or so, and that definitely falls on editorial.

Shadowman was VEI's biggest blunder to date, followed by the original EW series (I'm not even counting Dead Drop as I like to pretend that never happened). They definitely seem to have learned from those mistakes, however, with the long-term planning of books like Wrath, Bloodshot Reborn, etc. I also hope Justin Jordan returns to VEI some day.

[Keith]

To each's own, my opinion isn't based on any stories prior to VEI, for me, editorial, has to fall on the sword, there wasn't a clear vision for Shadowman. Like how Lemire came in with two years worth of stories already mapped out for Bloodshot. Jordan & Zircher, co-writing, was a bad idea, (obviously, Zircher, ran back to Dc, were he's no longer writing) but Jordan really flexed hard when he was riding solo, imho, Shadowman #0 & #10, are two of the Best issues VEI has published since 2012, you'd be hard pressed to find two better issues, along with Bleeding Monk #0, those issues were Amazing...

Agreed. I don't think we ever got a solid explanation as to just what Shadowman's abilities are in this version. They also seemed to flip flop between if Jack was in control, or if he became something else when he was Shadowman.

I would also argue that Milligans arc, and End Times, would have been better served by extending the number of issues in the arc to flesh out the story. Tremor was advertised as this big bad, but we barely saw him. And the resolution Shadowman just suddenly figures out to leave him in the Deadside came out of nowhere. I'd put that on editorial and the publisher.

[slack]

0 and 10, I agree, make the best valiant story so far. The first two arcs were good, the last arc seemed to veer in a jarring, unexpected direction, that I didn't care for. It didn't feel like the same Jack.
End Times, I need to read again. I remember not being impressed, and confused about the ending, and a little angry about the bad turn this character made since the third arc.

[leonmallett]

...plus the new Jack didn't play Saxophone.

Some of us were okay with that. It felt like an Englehart obsession/fixation more than anything to me.*


*Given that at around the same time, Night Man also played sax....

Yeah that's understandable. I do like how jazz music would influence Shadowman's fighting style.

It's important to note that Night Man came out a year after Shadowman.

Indeed, and good point. Same creator involved in both, which was my point about the use of the saxophone motif.

Same way that in Grant Morrison's DC and Zenith work there are similar concepts in use re: multi-versal structure.

Just saying that the sax stuff seemed to be something thrown in by Englehart, that it was a 'thing' of his, and therefore may not have been so much about the Jack Boniface character as Engelhart inserting his own preferences into the characters.

[jmatt]

One of the comments from both Jordan and Zircher was that there were "too many cooks in the kitchen" on Shadowman.

That. The book had too many different writers for such a short run.

[dornwolf]

One of the comments from both Jordan and Zircher was that there were "too many cooks in the kitchen" on Shadowman.

That. The book had too many different writers for such a short run.

With this in mind and using the #0 and #10 as an example does any wish Justin could come back and give it a go again and just see what he could do even if it was just a mini.

[BugsySig]

One of the comments from both Jordan and Zircher was that there were "too many cooks in the kitchen" on Shadowman.

That. The book had too many different writers for such a short run.

With this in mind and using the #0 and #10 as an example does any wish Justin could come back and give it a go again and just see what he could do even if it was just a mini.

Yes. I'd love a JJ "Darque Passages" mini.