BoD #1 was the 1st appearance of *NEW* Female Hero

[FormerReader]

I think for a lot of Valiant fans we get very passionate. Sometimes we all get carried away. I know I do. We argue about speculating versus not speculating, we complain about too many variants, we complain there are too few issues released each month, we complain when they don't create titles for new characters, we complain when they don't use old characters enough, we complain when artists draw potato cars. I think what it all comes down to is we are all very passionate about Valiant and hold them to a very high standard because that is what we have come to expect.

They have spoiled us with high quality so this is all their fault.

[agent_graves]

They have spoiled us with high quality so this is all their fault.

+1

On a serious note, gotta take the good, with the bad, Facts of Life!!

Dead Drop was an out of continuity, mini. Case Closed.

[Ramses818]

Before I start to echo everyone else here, I have to say DBS is the Devil! Yes the devil I say! *SQUEE* outed Bloodshot 10 before I could buy more! .

You know I might just have an extra copy (or three) that I would be willing to sell...

My wallet is already crying . We will talk, after WonderCon...lol

[Shadowman99]

I think for a lot of Valiant fans we get very passionate. Sometimes we all get carried away. I know I do. We argue about speculating versus not speculating, we complain about too many variants, we complain there are too few issues released each month, we complain when they don't create titles for new characters, we complain when they don't use old characters enough, we complain when artists draw potato cars. I think what it all comes down to is we are all very passionate about Valiant and hold them to a very high standard because that is what we have come to expect.

They have spoiled us with high quality so this is all their fault.

Yeah, in fairness I think VEI have spoiled us a bit with consistently quality comics since they started up as a company.

I think the main thing to keep in mind in relation to most of your comments on things that we complain about (which are all absolutely true! ) is that we're a gathering of people on this board, and that in no situation in life will ALL people within a gathering be pleased by EVERYTHING concerning any given situation: I'm sure VEI aim for maximum success in as many aspects as they can, but ultimately the unanimous majority will never feel 100% satisfaction with *anything* the company does, and that just needs to be accepted

[DirtbagSailor]

...we're a gathering of people on this board, and that in no situation in life will ALL people within a gathering be pleased by EVERYTHING concerning any given situation: I'm sure VEI aim for maximum success in as many aspects as they can, but ultimately the unanimous majority will never feel 100% satisfaction with *anything* the company does, and that just needs to be accepted

What it also is, is that we (the Valiant Fan community) tend to desire and expect Valiant stories and art to be created within certain parameters. If all of the sudden Imperium became a silly story with "Grumpy Cat" and "My Little Pony" while featuring cartoony art, we would lose our damn minds and immediately grab pitchforks and flaming torches!

Oddly enough, that same creative move, would appeal to a very large demographic an possibly increase sales if you can believe it. I'm just as guilty. I like a certain type of art, a certain type of writing, and a certain type of characterization for the characters that exist. Mess with that, and I'm the first in line to publicly rant about it!

However...

Valiant has to experiment. It has to modify and play with the IP it has and has developed to grow and to reach a broader audience.

I did not like Dead Drop. I wrote a horrific fan-boy rant about it and published it. I spoke to Dinesh about it too over the phone.

And you know what I learned from it all?

That sometimes a publisher has to take a risk. They have to try new creative talent, and reach out to new audiences. They have to succeed.

Looking back at it all, it's important to note that out of the ashes of Dead Drop, came Adam Gorham, and artist who is now creating some impressive covers for Divinity II (and I suspect additional titles as well in the near future...).

[Dallow Spicer1]

...we're a gathering of people on this board, and that in no situation in life will ALL people within a gathering be pleased by EVERYTHING concerning any given situation: I'm sure VEI aim for maximum success in as many aspects as they can, but ultimately the unanimous majority will never feel 100% satisfaction with *anything* the company does, and that just needs to be accepted

What it also is, is that we (the Valiant Fan community) tend to desire and expect Valiant stories and art to be created within certain parameters. If all of the sudden Imperium became a silly story with "Grumpy Cat" and "My Little Pony" while featuring cartoony art, we would lose our damn minds and immediately grab pitchforks and flaming torches!

Oddly enough, that same creative move, would appeal to a very large demographic an possibly increase sales if you can believe it. I'm just as guilty. I like a certain type of art, a certain type of writing, and a certain type of characterization for the characters that exist. Mess with that, and I'm the first in line to publicly rant about it!

However...

Valiant has to experiment. It has to modify and play with the IP it has and has developed to grow and to reach a broader audience.

I did not like Dead Drop. I wrote a horrific fan-boy rant about it and published it. I spoke to Dinesh about it too over the phone.

And you know what I learned from it all?

That sometimes a publisher has to take a risk. They have to try new creative talent, and reach out to new audiences. They have to succeed.

Looking back at it all, it's important to note that out of the ashes of Dead Drop, came Adam Gorham, and artist who is now creating some impressive covers for Divinity II (and I suspect additional titles as well in the near future...).

+1 on all of that.

And yes, Adam Gorham was a great find...hope to see more of his interior work as well as covers!

[DirtbagSailor]

Just realized I'm almost at 3,000 posts...

[leonmallett]

So true, so true. The later issue variants are rare as heck.

Not every mini has lasting investment value. Dead Drop is a good example. But that year we also got The Valiant #4 and Divinity #1 & 3.

I am sure Alex Kot will become infamous for being borderline craszy therefore making Dead Drop a good investment.

I think Dead Drop is just best left to fade away.

That would be letting VEI off the hook to easily for what was a horrible misstep IMHO, and one that many of their core customers probably bought simply because it is a VALIANT book, myself included.

Bro, take this the right way please. And you can do whatever you like. But....

I think VEI has earned a bit of grace from us.

Dead Drop was not good. Yes. But "letting them off the hook to easily". ??????

Look at ALL the books VEI has put out. How many have been terrible? What %? How many have been GREAT? If a handful of books have been terrible, maybe some kinda bad, and the LARGE MAJORITY of the rest have been good to great to amazing (like the best ever)..... then what's the deal?

Are you really SO angry that you bought 4 books that sucked when you have bought like 100 (or more) that have been amazing (not good or even great, but amazing)????

It seems to me that Dead Drop got killed by most of us, so then..... let it go. Most of Shadowman was not good, I've said so, publicly, on the podcast. Then Let it go. I don't care for Q&W, I've said so, right to Dino's face, then Let it go.

I don't keep telling Dino every time I talk to him, "dude, most of Shadowman sucked". Over and over and over and over and over and over again. Why??????????? Why would I do that. Why?

I don't get the

That would be letting VEI off the hook to easily

Comment. I honestly don't.

Now I'm not saying we should only speak rainbows about everything VEI does, (listen to the podcast, I have no problem telling the truth about stuff I don't like) but state your opinion about how bad something is, the let it go.

Sometimes the negativity can be a bit overwhelming. This is a Valiant Fans site. We like Valiant. There is so much good to talk about, sometimes I think the moaning and complaining and the this sucks and all is too much.

I just don't get the idea of letting them off the hook comment. I don't. They don't owe you ANYTHING. You don't like what they are doing, then don't buy it. If you keep buying the books and they keep sucking, then stop buying. If you buy something and don't like it, but you have liked SO MUCH of what they have done. then hows about a touch of grace?


Again, you can post whatever you like. You did so for such a long time about how VEI was never gonna do it and how VEI was not going to be successful and all that stuff. It was like a monthly update from you, your monthly VEI is terrible posts.
Now....?????????

Again, post what you like. But, seriously bro, come on. Let it go.

Dead drop sucked (some of it, parts was actually ok, small parts). But just look at everything else they have done. Its been good to real good and some amazing. Does that count for anything?

Lastly, I DID buy all 4 issues of Dead Drop also. Do they owe me my $16?

Sorry to rant on you bro, really I am. But it seems to be a constant refrain sometimes, you know.

No problem with the rant, although actually quite a personal attack as I look more at it, but that £12 spent on Dead Drop felt like VEI did not earn it as for me it was not deserved, as it offered little creative value compared to the money spent. They 'owe' me quality for a significant investment in entertainment (around $18-20 USD), that is part of the consumer process.

The issue about calling them out on publishing was that they were doing everything other than actually publish for a long while, and I was proven wrong and observed the same more than once:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=38032&p=813575&hili ... ng#p813575" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=46630&p=1004920&hil ... g#p1004920" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=11502&p=857024&hil ... ng#p857024" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If my sometimes negativity is too much (and hey, where I find positives I *do* cite them) consider that I applaud them Imperium (reads my posts); I applaud them Dr. Mirage; I applauded the first volume of Archer and Armstrong; same Ivar. And other books and arcs too; read my posts if you doubt that. But when they are poor, I will cite that too - for my money: Dead Drop, interminable Qunatum and Woody under Asmus, the excremental 'comedy' bits in the #25's. Don't like that? Put me on ignore or ask me to leave - I may do the latter, seriously, if that would make you feel better.

They have earned credit? That has been squandered for me through a number of asinine decisions they have made which are not felt in the same way in the USA as outside it (non-USA distribution of Plus Editions, LotG, now seemingly Bloodshot Reborn Directors Cut....), plus some really sub-par stories along the way. So right now they are about even, sorry to say, and while I continue to post for as long as that may be (referring to my offer above), I will praise where I feel it is worthwhile, and condemn where I feel they should have done much better. All is not roses, all is not *SQUEE*, but we should ignore the latter where it appears?


EDIT: after all that considered, maybe time to leave the board after all.

[sonicdan]

And yes, Adam Gorham was a great find...hope to see more of his interior work as well as covers!

[Elveen]

LeonM, no where did I say you should leave the board or stop posting. Read what I wrote.
I also did not say that you or I or we or anyone should not post negative comments. I gave many examples where I talked about my displeasure with some of their books in a very public way, much more public than this message board (our OTV listenership was really getting up there).

What I was saying is: state your displeasure, say how bad something is, say you don't like something but then, let it go. (This applies to all of us). I think bringing it up all the time can get to be counterproductive.

If a new comic fan or Valiant fan came to these boards to read about Valiant comics and which ones to try. And they see tons of constant negitive comments about how bad this is and how this was a bad decision and how this sucked...... Then what are we doing. This is a Valiant fans site. Not a Valiant bashing site. There are millions of places on the inter webs where negativity and Internet muscles reign. This should not be one of them.

Everyone should be able to say their opinions. If they think something sucks or that it was a waist of money or that they think VEI screwed them over, then whatever. Post it.

But then , it's done. Let it go.
This is a Valiant FANS site. We should be doing all we can to HELP Valiant. ..... Not hurt. Again, im not saying be fake and only roses, but get if off your chest and then move on.

As to you feeling that they have wasted their grace with you and are about even, then that is your perspective. Have it. Mine is different. I think most of what they have done is at least good. THats my perspective. I'm a Valiant fan. I try to help grow the company. I try to spread the word. I talk to peeps about the books whenever I can. I have NEVER told anyone to read Q&W, I don't like it. Harby , XO, divinity, A&A (parts), Harby wars, armor Hunters , the fall of books, and more. Heck yeah I have.

I'm a Valiant fan.

Lastly, to the maybe I should leave comment..... I never said you should. But... It does bother me when anyone in any situation says things like that. Its like the, I'm taking my ball and going home trick. If you r going to go. Then go. If you are going to stay. Then fine. If you are going to post how much stuff sucks and how Valiant owes you something .... Then maybe a Valiant fans place is not for you. There are tons of places where those kinds of comments are the norm and seem to be welcome. And honestly, maybe this place is turning into that it or will turn into that. We have had a heck of a run here on This site. Maybe change is a coming here.

I stand by everything I posted. I never said leave, I never said you can't post what you want. All I said is that there is a time to let it go. We have to understand that Valiant is trying to really do something that has only been done twice in history. They are trying to create a true third comic book universe. I want to be a part of it. I want to help in any way I can. I am always REAL. I'm never fake bro.

I say my piece and move on the the next one.
That is all I said. Maybe there is a time to let it go. Go re-read Harby. It will make you feel better.

[Elveen]

+1 on the Elveen perspective above, VEI's output has overwhelmingly been excellent. But there has been some rubbish too (less editing errors over the last year though) and I guess sometimes we get that invested in VEI as a company we take the failed experiments badly.

Out of interest Elveen, what did Dino say when you told him you didn't like Q&W? He seems open to feedback from fans (or that's how he seems)?

Dino loves feedback. We talk often and he searches it out.
I can't say exactly what he said. But I've told him to his grill that I didn't like something. He asked for specifics and that was it.

Atom on the other hand. I think he called me a jack donkey. On. many occasions. Ha!

Dino's favorite thing to say to me is how they plan to kill Cronos in the most disgusting and shameful ways.

[leonmallett]

LeonM, no where did I say you should leave the board or stop posting. Read what I wrote.
I also did not say that you or I or we or anyone should not post negative comments. I gave many examples where I talked about my displeasure with some of their books in a very public way, much more public than this message board (our OTV listenership was really getting up there).

What I was saying is: state your displeasure, say how bad something is, say you don't like something but then, let it go. (This applies to all of us). I think bringing it up all the time can get to be counterproductive.

If a new comic fan or Valiant fan came to these boards to read about Valiant comics and which ones to try. And they see tons of constant negitive comments about how bad this is and how this was a bad decision and how this sucked...... Then what are we doing. This is a Valiant fans site. Not a Valiant bashing site. There are millions of places on the inter webs where negativity and Internet muscles reign. This should not be one of them.

Everyone should be able to say their opinions. If they think something sucks or that it was a waist of money or that they think VEI screwed them over, then whatever. Post it.

But then , it's done. Let it go.
This is a Valiant FANS site. We should be doing all we can to HELP Valiant. ..... Not hurt. Again, im not saying be fake and only roses, but get if off your chest and then move on.

As to you feeling that they have wasted their grace with you and are about even, then that is your perspective. Have it. Mine is different. I think most of what they have done is at least good. THats my perspective. I'm a Valiant fan. I try to help grow the company. I try to spread the word. I talk to peeps about the books whenever I can. I have NEVER told anyone to read Q&W, I don't like it. Harby , XO, divinity, A&A (parts), Harby wars, armor Hunters , the fall of books, and more. Heck yeah I have.

I'm a Valiant fan.

Lastly, to the maybe I should leave comment..... I never said you should. But... It does bother me when anyone in any situation says things like that. Its like the, I'm taking my ball and going home trick. If you r going to go. Then go. If you are going to stay. Then fine. If you are going to post how much stuff sucks and how Valiant owes you something .... Then maybe a Valiant fans place is not for you. There are tons of places where those kinds of comments are the norm and seem to be welcome. And honestly, maybe this place is turning into that it or will turn into that. We have had a heck of a run here on This site. Maybe change is a coming here.

I stand by everything I posted. I never said leave, I never said you can't post what you want. All I said is that there is a time to let it go. We have to understand that Valiant is trying to really do something that has only been done twice in history. They are trying to create a true third comic book universe. I want to be a part of it. I want to help in any way I can. I am always REAL. I'm never fake bro.

I say my piece and move on the the next one.
That is all I said. Maybe there is a time to let it go. Go re-read Harby. It will make you feel better.

Well we will agree to disagree on many things.

I think your post was a personal attack, even if you don't view it as such. I think part of your rebuttal is also a personal attack; I could reply in kind but won't.

As for my leaving, I think that may be a better option, even if only for a while. I never said you stated I should (hey read my post), nor do I infer you suggest it, I suggested it as a means to reduce your exposure to comments you don't want to read.

As for my VEI book of choice to 'feel better'. That would be Imperium, Archer and Armstrong, Dr. Mirage, the Jordan Shadowman issues, Ivar, early Unity, later Harbinger and others, books I have been complimentary about.

But against that quality VEI have taken steps to disenfranchise non-North American readers at times through their marketing gimmicks, even if unintentionally - is that anything you have explored in your podcast? They have produced stuff I think was sub-par by their own standards, and in relation to the cost of the medium - - and credit to you that you identify such examples (which will always be in the eye of the beholder); not mentioning their missteps may serve to help them forget and repeat similar mistakes.

[Elveen]

I can appreciate your posts and your choice of Valiant books.

We have never talked about what it is like to be a non-north American fan, how could we? We have no reference point.

Again, as for you leaving, don't lay it on me bro. Don't do it for me. If I'm the reason you choose to leave, that's a bummer. But that's on you , not me. You don't have to leave to save me from reading your posts. Like I always have said, post what you want to. But I do think that sometimes you can be a bit negitive and a bit repeating, as evidence from your post that started this and the other posts I referenced. Maybe I'm worng, maybe I'm being a bully. I hope not.

We might not all agree or always get along. That's ok.

[nycjadie]

It's not easy finding VEI books here in San Francisco and Oakland. Don't even get me started on high grade copies. If a store here does order a book, they usually only get 1-2 copies, and not the entire line, either. The copies are usually bent to hell - (VF- at best). I got lucky at looking through 5 copies of Faith 2. With the black back cover and spine splits, I couldn't find a NM copy. I can't imagine what it's like from an international perspective.

[Elveen]

It's not easy finding VEI books here in San Francisco and Oakland. Don't even get me started on high grade copies. If a store here does order a book, they usually only get 1-2 copies, and not the entire line, either. The copies are usually bent to hell - (VF- at best). I got lucky at looking through 5 copies of Faith 2. With the black back cover and spine splits, I couldn't find a NM copy. I can't imagine what it's like from an international perspective.

I wonder, Do you think that is an industry wide issue or something specific to Valiant?
I wonder if it is hard to get high grade copies of any book internationally?

[nycjadie]

In my experience, VEI books are very condition sensitive, and I believe because the print runs are lower, and need to be man-handled a bit more in distribution, they receive more dings and bangs than others. I get every book and cover, from multiple sources often, and it's the same issue across the board. I see this as a VEI issue. I can find V1 stock in better condition than VEI new books.

[Dallow Spicer1]

+1 on the Elveen perspective above, VEI's output has overwhelmingly been excellent. But there has been some rubbish too (less editing errors over the last year though) and I guess sometimes we get that invested in VEI as a company we take the failed experiments badly.

Out of interest Elveen, what did Dino say when you told him you didn't like Q&W? He seems open to feedback from fans (or that's how he seems)?

Dino loves feedback. We talk often and he searches it out.
I can't say exactly what he said. But I've told him to his grill that I didn't like something. He asked for specifics and that was it.

Atom on the other hand. I think he called me a jack donkey. On. many occasions. Ha!

Dino's favorite thing to say to me is how they plan to kill Cronos in the most disgusting and shameful ways.

[Dallow Spicer1]

It's not easy finding VEI books here in San Francisco and Oakland. Don't even get me started on high grade copies. If a store here does order a book, they usually only get 1-2 copies, and not the entire line, either. The copies are usually bent to hell - (VF- at best). I got lucky at looking through 5 copies of Faith 2. With the black back cover and spine splits, I couldn't find a NM copy. I can't imagine what it's like from an international perspective.

I wonder, Do you think that is an industry wide issue or something specific to Valiant?
I wonder if it is hard to get high grade copies of any book internationally?

In the main it's fine getting books internationally. I get my books via the mail from online retailers, you get the occasional dinged copy but they're always happy to replace them.

Not sure about 9.6/9.8 copies, but to be honest I don't think I'd know the difference as I'm not sure what the differentiators are.

The only downer about international (or UK at least) is that variants such 1:50, 1:100 etc are rarer than rocking horse *SQUEE* so if they ever do surface the prices are ridiculous!!

[Shadowman99]

...we're a gathering of people on this board, and that in no situation in life will ALL people within a gathering be pleased by EVERYTHING concerning any given situation: I'm sure VEI aim for maximum success in as many aspects as they can, but ultimately the unanimous majority will never feel 100% satisfaction with *anything* the company does, and that just needs to be accepted

What it also is, is that we (the Valiant Fan community) tend to desire and expect Valiant stories and art to be created within certain parameters. If all of the sudden Imperium became a silly story with "Grumpy Cat" and "My Little Pony" while featuring cartoony art, we would lose our damn minds and immediately grab pitchforks and flaming torches!

Oddly enough, that same creative move, would appeal to a very large demographic an possibly increase sales if you can believe it. I'm just as guilty. I like a certain type of art, a certain type of writing, and a certain type of characterization for the characters that exist. Mess with that, and I'm the first in line to publicly rant about it!

However...

Valiant has to experiment. It has to modify and play with the IP it has and has developed to grow and to reach a broader audience. Sometimes a publisher has to take a risk. They have to try new creative talent, and reach out to new audiences. They have to succeed.

I think that's actually a really good observation, and now I think about it I'd have to guess that if any company didn't try to reach new audiences they'd only ever make revenue capped at whatever their current audience was providing (whatever that may be pre-modification).

I guess a good analogy for that is that a gathering of people create a settlement on one side of a hill where resources are good and a living can be earned. The people could sustain at that level indefinitely let's say. However, if a handful of them travel over the hill one day in search of something new, they're likely to find:
- A more beneficial circumstance (better soil to grow better/more crops)
- An identical circumstance, or (similar soil to grow an equal amount of crops)
- A detrimental circumstance (Worse soil that grows poorer crops)

However, without travelling over the hill in the first place it'll never be known what effect the new area could have on the current settlement and people and whether or not there's any benefit to be gained from it.

So, in short: gotta take these risks from time to time!

[Funcha]

In my experience, VEI books are very condition sensitive, and I believe because the print runs are lower, and need to be man-handled a bit more in distribution, they receive more dings and bangs than others. I get every book and cover, from multiple sources often, and it's the same issue across the board. I see this as a VEI issue. I can find V1 stock in better condition than VEI new books.

This has been a sore subject for me with Valiant's titles since the relaunch. Whether from production related issues (spidery creases on some covers) or mishandling, I would often have to travel between 3 - 5 different shops around Las Vegas to find copies of issues that were in what I consider solid Near Mint condition. Of course, since switching over to DCBS mail order, the percentage of copies of Valiant issues that I would consider to be in rougher shape (Very Fine) have gone way up in my collection. Even my 2 copies of Divinty #1, which I assumed would be easy 9.8s, have what appear to be some "speckling" on the covers (best way I can describe it) that would likely get the grade knocked down. I love Valiant's books, but their printing standards may need to be improved a bit.

[paradise]

[quote="Dallow Spicer1Atom on the other hand. I think he called me a jack donkey. On. many occasions. Ha!
[/quote]

I have both called and been called by Atom a lot worse in the last 15 years or so that I have known him

[Elveen]

[quote="Dallow Spicer1Atom on the other hand. I think he called me a jack donkey. On. many occasions. Ha!

I have both called and been called by Atom a lot worse in the last 15 years or so that I have known him [/quote]

I have a feeling it's not that unique if a club my friend.

But it is hard to get mad at Atom when he has his "con shoes" on.
They are like a +6 charisma D&D magical item.

[Shadowman99]

[quote="Dallow Spicer1Atom on the other hand. I think he called me a jack donkey. On. many occasions. Ha!

I have both called and been called by Atom a lot worse in the last 15 years or so that I have known him

I have a feeling it's not that unique if a club my friend.

But it is hard to get mad at Atom when he has his "con shoes" on.
They are like a +6 charisma D&D magical item.[/quote]

[DirtbagSailor]

[quote="Elveen"[quote="paradise"[quote="Dallow Spicer1Atom on the other hand. I think he called me a jack donkey. On. many occasions. Ha!

I have both called and been called by Atom a lot worse in the last 15 years or so that I have known him [/quote]

I have a feeling it's not that unique if a club my friend.

But it is hard to get mad at Atom when he has his "con shoes" on.
They are like a +6 charisma D&D magical item.[/quote]
[/quote]

The OCD in me is exploding right now looking at these broken BBCodes...

[depluto]

[quote="Elveen"[quote="paradise"[quote="Dallow Spicer1Atom on the other hand. I think he called me a jack donkey. On. many occasions. Ha!

I have both called and been called by Atom a lot worse in the last 15 years or so that I have known him

I have a feeling it's not that unique if a club my friend.

But it is hard to get mad at Atom when he has his "con shoes" on.
They are like a +6 charisma D&D magical item.[/quote]
[/quote]

The OCD in me is exploding right now looking at these broken BBCodes... [/quote]