To all those saying they are thinking of quitting Valiant...

[paradise]

Dude, stop attacking people that are making purchases that suit their desires/needs

NOBODY should read a book they do not like. I would never attempt to say that. I just get upset, considering the events that just transpired, by people talking about not buying the books because the numbering format has changed or the covers were too many for some type of an OCD habit to be picked over the love of their favorite characters. And there are people buying extra copies just to turn others onto Valiant, while someone complains about mini-series over ongoing, such trivial *SQUEE* which has nothing to do with Valiant but the current marketplace.

Also, it was a reply to an equally ignorant statement about Dinesh taking a payout from a guy who admitted he has not bought VEI books in a couple of years.

I am not attacking a person, I am attacking ideas that have led to this situation. Honestly, I could trace you an outline that shows you how that all added up to NU-VEI and no Dinesh at the helm.

[paradise]

All this Valiant news aside, I've never been a fan of how you address people on this board, like you know what's best. You can be very self righteous and condescending. And you dangle your "connections" in front of people like a carrot on a stick. I'm not trying to be rude, it's just very tiresome and dramatic at times.

1. I don't dangle connections, but sometimes it needs to be pointed out that a statement is made based on a direct relationship, not something that is learned on facebook. My relationships are from roughtly 25 years in the BUSINESS of comics (not collecting, but selling) and working directly with every publisher because of our size as opposed to just doing Diamond order forms and selling books.

2. I address people based on how they address me and others. If you are reasonable I will be your best friend. If you say that Dinesh sold out or paid out or got a sweet deal when reality is that it's closer to losing a child (I am not being over-dramatic here, you all know how he feels about VEI) I am going to call your *SQUEE* and not be nice about it, either.

3. Some people find my perspective on things pretty valuable, and if you don't I recommend the block feature on this site

[Zhuge1]

However, I basically stopped buying Valiant months a couple years back when initial titles began getting cancelled. I just can't support the mini-series nor constant reboot method of publishing anymore. I still buy the Deluxe editions though, because the uniformity helps keep my interest.

And THAT right there is the reason DMG was involved with VEI. All the people who quit collecting the books because they could not just enjoy the books, they had made up excuses (interrupted runs, multiple covers, ratio variants....) that it put VEI into a situation where they needed that investment to operate. The wait for the trade, or HC trends have not helped either. What happened later was a different story, but it all started with the fickle fans that did not care to support the publisher that they were all waiting for to come back.

Sorry if I am a bit blunt, but I am in no mood to mince words right now. Just imagine if Dinesh actually sees this post. It's wrong.

But if the guy is buying the deluxe editions (despite skipping the monthly floppies), isn't that still supporting VEI?

[FormerReader]

Nice post Ed! I hope in time DMG sees how important Dinesh is to Valiant and maybe bring him in as the face of the company.

LOL not likely

One can hope right.

I know we're not likely to get all the answers for some time, but I can't understand the decision to not keep the person who is your biggest fan and the face of the company.

[paradise]

But if the guy is buying the deluxe editions (despite skipping the monthly floppies), isn't that still supporting VEI?

Deluxe editions are fantastic, love them. They only come out for sucessful series, without single issue support, there are no DLX editions. Also, most of them are produced at break-even point or below so there is no profit there for VEI from those books.

[nonplayer]

But if the guy is buying the deluxe editions (despite skipping the monthly floppies), isn't that still supporting VEI?

Deluxe editions are fantastic, love them. They only come out for sucessful series, without single issue support, there are no DLX editions. Also, most of them are produced at break-even point or below so there is no profit there for VEI from those books.

I love my armor hunters

[tell]

However, I basically stopped buying Valiant months a couple years back when initial titles began getting cancelled. I just can't support the mini-series nor constant reboot method of publishing anymore. I still buy the Deluxe editions though, because the uniformity helps keep my interest.

It drives me insane that people refer to renumbering as reboots.

And THAT right there is the reason DMG was involved with VEI. All the people who quit collecting the books because they could not just enjoy the books, they had made up excuses (interrupted runs, multiple covers, ratio variants....) that it put VEI into a situation where they needed that investment to operate. The wait for the trade, or HC trends have not helped either. What happened later was a different story, but it all started with the fickle fans that did not care to support the publisher that they were all waiting for to come back.

It is absolute *SQUEE* to blame readers of trades and deluxe editions for the company's trouble. Nobody has any obligation to want floppies, frankly floppys suck, they only appeal to a small segment of the audience and depend on fanboyism and collector culture to thrive. I get it, thats the hand modern comics have been dealt but that doesnt mean its a good thing. But to pretend that every fan should be buying every floppy is *SQUEE*.

DMG didn't happen because people trade wait, or because the fans didn't blindly spend enough. It happened because the audience isn't growing and profit margins are tiny for comics. Which is also why DMG doesnt care about us or Dinesh, or frankly even comic books, they care about movies, TV, making new fans, and higher profits.

I know you're upset but you are just being a self righteous dick. Dont blame this on the fans, blame it on the lack of fans.

But if the guy is buying the deluxe editions (despite skipping the monthly floppies), isn't that still supporting VEI?

Yes it is.

[possumgrease]

[greg]

I know you're upset but you are just being a self righteous dick.

I know you're upset but you are violating the rules of this board.

Be passionate, be angry even... but not age 12 recess angry.

[Blood of Heroes]

I know you're upset but you are just being a self righteous dick.

I know you're upset but you are violating the rules of this board.

Be passionate, be angry even... but not age 12 recess angry.

I know you are but what am I?

[IMJ]

Every organization has to evolve, although I would definitely guess that Dinesh took the payout because the house he built was at it's pinnacle before needing a reinvention beyond his first revitalization. I don't resent that.

THAT right there is what I am talking about when I mention selling out. This statement (obviously from lack of understanding) makes it seem like he was offered money and decided to take it. The reality of the situation is SOOOOOOO Far from that, it's not even the opposite. I won't discuss the details but most people have been able to read between the lines and see that it's not the case. The house he built did not need reinvention, it was doing just fine. 2017 was by FAR the biggest year for VEI's sales and so much of their stuff got signed to media projects. Sorry but stuff like that really puts salt on already a giant wound that a lot of people who know what's up have.

However, I basically stopped buying Valiant months a couple years back when initial titles began getting cancelled. I just can't support the mini-series nor constant reboot method of publishing anymore. I still buy the Deluxe editions though, because the uniformity helps keep my interest.

And THAT right there is the reason DMG was involved with VEI. All the people who quit collecting the books because they could not just enjoy the books, they had made up excuses (interrupted runs, multiple covers, ratio variants....) that it put VEI into a situation where they needed that investment to operate. The wait for the trade, or HC trends have not helped either. What happened later was a different story, but it all started with the fickle fans that did not care to support the publisher that they were all waiting for to come back.

Sorry if I am a bit blunt, but I am in no mood to mince words right now. Just imagine if Dinesh actually sees this post. It's wrong.

I understand what you are saying, but you're a bit too vitriolic. For example, saying collectors "quit collecting the books because they could not just enjoy the books, they had made up excuses...". Given your involvement in the hobby, I can only say that your words are coming off as very disingenuous. As if you are selling your own emotional perspective rather than what you should know of the industry as a whole. As if people are wrong for dropping the books for any of your cited reasons. Look, the publishing model of relaunches, reboots and mini-series sucks. The end. Those practices are a pandemic sweeping the hobby, and every publisher who embraced has been paying for it. Sure, there are examples of progressive moves at Valiant under Dinesh through which the company tried new things or anticipated trends. But the examples you've used? No way man, that blame is on the publisher, not the "fickle" fans. The way you tell it, people should just keep buying what they are unhappy with, and that's your B.S. right there.

As for my comment about the payout? I see your points - these deals always come with closed-door negotiations that people aren't privy to. However, let's play this out about a pay out just for a moment. With that said, an organizational leader taking a payout can mean a lot of things. Sometimes it's actually a good move for the organization, other times it's a function of someone's planning all along. But here, you've assigned some negativity to this, and that wasn't in the spirit I intended it. I'm not some mouth-breather saying that his favorite band 'sold-out' by writing a pop song and cutting their hair, here. The truth is that, regardless of nearly any conceivable circumstances, Dinesh took the payout. And that's most likely okay. Even if down the road it's revealed that Dinesh needed an opportunity to bow out for unknown health reasons or something, this is still true (I made up that example, I hope it is not accurate). But I think it's pretty clear to the clear minded that Valiant needs a remodification or a reinvention, if you will. Bare with me here because it's also clear that you have more emotional vestment in this publisher than I do.

Let's say that Valiant, as you tell it, was doing just fine (and actually you've created a contradiction because first it's "The house he built did not need reinvention, it was doing just fine." followed by "they had made up excuses that it put VEI into a situation where they needed that investment to operate". Okay, guess what? Needing infusion capital does not mean a company is doing "just fine"). But again, let's just say it was doing fine. With that said, sometimes organizations need a reinvention or a transition to hit their goals. Maybe leadership wanted to move towards a greater multimedia-centered approach, and for whatever reason Dinesh wasn't the guy to get that done. He does other things maybe, but maybe not that.

And so, you and I are mincing words, but from a macro-perspective this Valiant had two core problems. Their publishing model began to suck, and there wasn't much wide-appeal content - its been either above average stuff, or it was something that only die hards would want to buy (and in those cases likely due to brand loyalty, which by the way is a buying pattern - not a virtue). Combine this with the fact that movie deals were optioned, but stagnating for some time (I would almost guess that the Power Rangers looking Ninjak thing was possibly done as a proof of concept to help get those movies moving forward). Clearly they needed a reinvention, man. It's no big deal. The creators at the company are still top notch, and Dinesh pulled off his out-of-college business endeavor with a grand slam - I respect the guy.

But with that said, definitely don't place fault on me for making what's likely a fairly cogent analysis, nor label my buying habits as "finicky" when new comic books are four, five bucks a pop, have diminished good will, contain inequitable divisive politics, and have a neo-publishing culture that is opportunistic as hell (variants, new #1's, etc is opportunistic as hell).

I'm done editing my reply here. It'll have to stand as it is, if you guys can stomach it.

[eschnit]

Just some thought on this. What Dinesh did for Valiant is make them relevant again. The game was never going to be exclusively the books. There's simply not enough money in publishing. Many folks in the know can speak more to what's real, but here's how I took it in. Dinesh and crew were able to hire good talent and have creative freedom because they had money to play with. It was a necessary evil. Jim Shooter and Bob Layton's Valiant were selling a lot more books back in the day. Dinesh's legacy circa 2012-2017 is golden for the fans though. If he leaves, he leaves Valiant in a good place. We have had exceptional artists pour themselves into the VEI books. I'm sure they are frustrated. This was a dream situation. But how much money can be made when you are selling 200,000 issues a month as a publisher? If they take in a few million dollars revenue in a year and the intellectual properties are worth a multiple of that, how could publishing exist without other media? The answer is, it could, with strings attached. The strings were the shareholders with control were always going to do this, it was just a question of when.

I want to see a Bloodshot and Harbinger movie, Quantum and Woody and Faith series, Shadowman mini-series. With Netflix spending $8 billion/yr on content, Amazon $6 billion/yr, and competitors trying to trump them, it's time. With every mid-level Marvel character getting a show, Spawn, Punisher, The End of the F***ing World, it's time.

Those that pulled Valiant up to where it is today vs where it was 6 or 7 years ago, thank you. And hopefully they will all win in the end. They gave us great stories and artwork, stuff that would be more likely used in multimedia than the 90s version. And hopefully their careers are helped from having worked in VEI.

[jmatt]

The game was never going to be exclusively the books. There's simply not enough money in publishing. ...But how much money can be made when you are selling 200,000 issues a month as a publisher? ... The strings were the shareholders with control were always going to do this, it was just a question of when.

Very true. It was fait accompli as soon as Cuneo came on board. And this is not a bad thing, a media empire of sorts was always the goal; I'm sure Dinesh would not disagree.

Back in 2015 when DMG infused all that money, people were over the moon at the prospects. And now they have even more money invested. That's great.

So what's all the commotion about? Well, Dinesh getting pushed out, obviously. It's sad for those of us that know him, and much has been said in that regard. But why?

Pure speculation on possible reasons. Please don't read anything into my wording, I'm just trying to view things through the lens of DMG:

1) Perhaps he wanted more control over the movie/media decisions than DMG was comfortable with. They wanted to move aggressively, he wanted to move more cautiously and have a say in what was greenlighted. They're a billion dollar freight train, he's the college kid that restarted a defunct comic book line. Their visions and timetables don't align, and he's getting in the way.

Or

2) Perhaps they simply wanted to establish dominance over the company. They want to be able to move with the authority of a big corporation, and he's got a personal relationship with everyone and everything that exists at VEI. Maybe they worried that he had too much personal power and that he could poison the well if they didn't see eye to eye. Sending the former management packing is standard when new management moves in.

From a corporate perspective, I can't think of another reason. There were good reasons to keep him (fan devotion, etc) but they were outweighed by other considerations in their eyes.

As to the quality and output of the comics line, I'm not worried. They are not going to put all this money and effort into media ventures and have the word on the street be that their comic line is floundering.

In fact, it may be the opposite. When you have $150 million invested in a company (a guess), the cost of producing good comics is lunch money. A rounding error. Inconsequential.

The cost of not having a growing comic line could be disastrous for your expensive movies.

As I have expressed elsewhere, like you, I am saddened to see Dinesh leave. But I am not worried that they will allow the comic book foundation take a nosedive.

[chadpdodge]

Well said. I'll continue to support Valiant and have their titles at the front of my pull list. I dug Dinesh, but the reality is I enjoy the Valiant product, art, storytelling and the fandom. I'm excited to see how everything plays out in these new platforms.

[IMJ]

The game was never going to be exclusively the books. There's simply not enough money in publishing. ...But how much money can be made when you are selling 200,000 issues a month as a publisher? ... The strings were the shareholders with control were always going to do this, it was just a question of when.

Very true. It was fait accompli as soon as Cuneo came on board. And this is not a bad thing, a media empire of sorts was always the goal; I'm sure Dinesh would not disagree.

Back in 2015 when DMG infused all that money, people were over the moon at the prospects. And now they have even more money invested. That's great.

So what's all the commotion about? Well, Dinesh getting pushed out, obviously. It's sad for those of us that know him, and much has been said in that regard. But why?

Pure speculation on possible reasons. Please don't read anything into my wording, I'm just trying to view things through the lens of DMG:

1) Perhaps he wanted more control over the movie/media decisions than DMG was comfortable with. They wanted to move aggressively, he wanted to move more cautiously and have a say in what was greenlighted. They're a billion dollar freight train, he's the college kid that restarted a defunct comic book line. Their visions and timetables don't align, and he's getting in the way.

Or

2) Perhaps they simply wanted to establish dominance over the company. They want to be able to move with the authority of a big corporation, and he's got a personal relationship with everyone and everything that exists at VEI. Maybe they worried that he had too much personal power and that he could poison the well if they didn't see eye to eye. Sending the former management packing is standard when new management moves in.

From a corporate perspective, I can't think of another reason. There were good reasons to keep him (fan devotion, etc) but they were outweighed by other considerations in their eyes.

As to the quality and output of the comics line, I'm not worried. They are not going to put all this money and effort into media ventures and have the word on the street be that their comic line is floundering.

In fact, it may be the opposite. When you have $150 million invested in a company (a guess), the cost of producing good comics is lunch money. A rounding error. Inconsequential.

The cost of not having a growing comic line could be disastrous for your expensive movies.

As I have expressed elsewhere, like you, I am saddened to see Dinesh leave. But I am not worried that they will allow the comic book foundation take a nosedive.

Yup. It's very, very common in these situations to include stipulations that a buyout comes with removal of pre-buyout management. Basically if I made an investment and that investment is now under my ownership I wouldn't want the existing or continued influence of older management to create loyalty or direction conflict with what I was going to do with what was now mine.

We tend to act shocked when we hear this, but the truth is that it's nearly part and parcel with an organizational buyout. And old leadership would be crazy to not take the payout because they'll basically be removed either way.

[paradise]

Yup. It's very, very common in these situations to include stipulations that a buyout comes with removal of pre-buyout management. Basically if I made an investment and that investment is now under my ownership I wouldn't want the existing or continued influence of older management to create loyalty or direction conflict with what I was going to do with what was now mine.

We tend to act shocked when we hear this, but the truth is that it's nearly part and parcel with an organizational buyout. And old leadership would be crazy to not take the payout because they'll basically be removed either way.

EXCEPT, it was not anything like that.

[jmatt]

EXCEPT, it was not anything like that.

Well, then I guess there's a third reason I haven't thought of. And I know you can't say anything. Maybe someday we'll all learn the real story. There were good reasons to keep Dinesh on board.

[Savant]

I don't have high hopes for DMG's take-over, and what they did to Dinesh was slimy, to put it mildly, but as long as there's quality in the Valiant line I'll continue supporting the product.

I'm not a blindly loyal consumer. I like the persona Dinesh has (never met him), as well as his passion for the company...But if I like a comic, I'll buy it. If not, I won't waste money on it.

VEI's line has been a mixed bag for me, but I will say the two companies I buy the most comics from are Valiant & Image. My favorite Valiant writers are Dysart & Van Lente. If they continue writing for Valiant, I'll continue collecting their work.

I do hope some things with Valiant remain the same, such as the publication of Rai. What I don't want is a few issues containing Crain's art, then 3-5 fill-in issues while Crain's taking time on his subsequent issues. Unfortunately, I can't see a corporate entity allowing what weve seen of Rai's publication schedule.

https://thechicocomicspage.com/2018/01/ ... ua-dysart/

Great article, thank you for the link. Gives us a deeper perspective on both Dinesh & Dysart.

[jmatt]

https://thechicocomicspage.com/2018/01/ ... ua-dysart/

Wow, I missed that. Great read. That's Dinesh in a nutshell: a man with a dream that worked in the trenches all day alongside his Valiant compatriots. Crap, now I'm depressed.

[TheFerg714]

I do hope some things with Valiant remain the same, such as the publication of Rai. What I don't want is a few issues containing Crain's art, then 3-5 fill-in issues while Crain's taking time on his subsequent issues. Unfortunately, I can't see a corporate entity allowing what weve seen of Rai's publication schedule.

I'm glad VEI gave Crain the time he needed to do all 16 issues of Rai, but after seeing CAFU on the 4001 tie-in issues, I'm actually for different artists to take over Rai. Clayton Crain is great, but his style can get a little old imo.

[nonplayer]

Do you think Will we see a bunch of Valiant stuff up for sale as people decide now is the best time to sell due to speculation on the fate of Valiant?

[greg]

Do you think Will we see a bunch of Valiant stuff up for sale as people decide now is the best time to sell due to speculation on the fate of Valiant?

I hope so. Collecting Valiant is always about buying your favorite books. If DMG doesn't keep the quality at Valiant levels, then the quality books will be Valiant back issues. More focus on back issues will lead to a bigger shortage next year (or whenever), so a few months of "liquidation sales" would be nice.

VEI has been splitting collector dollars between back issues and new issues. If buying dollars shift to only the Valiant keys, there will be a bit of a problem, since someone will need to be selling.

Think about how many Valiant prices from 2004 would be great to see again or having a second chance at VEI key issues with several buying options.

[agent_graves]

https://thechicocomicspage.com/2018/01/ ... ua-dysart/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Awesome read. I don't normally tear up, but when Dysart pours out a bit of his soul...(how come there's no single tear emoticon?)Respect for both men.

Seriously. I fcking love Dysart.

+1

[FormerReader]

Do you think Will we see a bunch of Valiant stuff up for sale as people decide now is the best time to sell due to speculation on the fate of Valiant?

I hope so. Collecting Valiant is always about buying your favorite books. If DMG doesn't keep the quality at Valiant levels, then the quality books will be Valiant back issues. More focus on back issues will lead to a bigger shortage next year (or whenever), so a few months of "liquidation sales" would be nice.

VEI has been splitting collector dollars between back issues and new issues. If buying dollars shift to only the Valiant keys, there will be a bit of a problem, since someone will need to be selling.

Think about how many Valiant prices from 2004 would be great to see again or having a second chance at VEI key issues with several buying options.

I would be picking up a lot of back issues if that happens. While this is a challenging time for us Valiant fans, it would be a terrible time to sell. We now have a multi billion dollar corporation backing multimedia plans for these characters. If people are in this for the money, I would buy in now, were in our dip in the market.

[IMJ]

EXCEPT, it was not anything like that.

Well, then I guess there's a third reason I haven't thought of. And I know you can't say anything. Maybe someday we'll all learn the real story. There were good reasons to keep Dinesh on board.

Same here.
And this is all fine. At this point it's all just conversation anyway. But the way you've really leaned on this, there's got to be some incredibly crazy one-off story that happened here. And given the build-up, secrecy and then defense of this publicly unknown, I certainly hope for the sake of the reputations of everyone involved that it's not anti-climatic nor fits the mold of what some of us have discussed here in any way when it comes out someday.

Either way, I'm eager to see what Dinesh's next move is.