Multiple Canons (Bad Subject Line, I Know)

[ManofTheAtom]

If I understand correctly, Q2: The Return of Quantum & Woody (I only read one or two issues, I don't remember) took place in VH 2 canon.

Is that correct?

If so, and with that in mind, what other stories would you like to see set in either VH 1, VH 2, or even VH 3 (i.e. the unpublished Doctor Mirage and Bloodshot reboots) canons?

For instance, would it be at all possible to finally, once and for all, do the 1999 VH 1 event WITHOUT the involvement of Solar?

Not Unity 2000 redux, but a true version of what would have been the '99 event as hinted during the original run of VALIANT comics, with the death of Shadowman at the end?

Such an event would not require Turok, while Magnus is not an issue since he exists in the future. Solar need not be addressed at all.

That aside, what other previous incarnations of the VALIANT heroes would be cool to revisit the way Q2 did Quantum & Woody, and what could those stories be?

In the case of VH 1 it should be stories that one, respect and address the ending of their original volumes (i.e. X-O Manowar #68) and don't contradict Rai #0.

There are three proverbial wolves Alien Books must feed:

The laxed VALIANT fans who stopped buying the comics.
The existing VALIANT fans who are still supporting the comics.
And the people that have never read the comics.

Stories like this feed two of those wolves.

[slack]

The audience for that is limited. The Q&W thing happened when they were doing well, and they didn't do it again... probably for a reason.

Some Legacy fans will buy.

Far less Modern Valiant fans will.

Likely close to none will sell to people who don't know Valiant characters.

Without Solar, VH1 and VH2 wouldn't exist... writing around those Gold Key characters would water down any of those stories, and make them feel like a replacement, not a continuation.

My 2¢.

[ManofTheAtom]

The audience for that is limited. The Q&W thing happened when they were doing well, and they didn't do it again... probably for a reason.

Some Legacy fans will buy.

Far less Modern Valiant fans will.

Likely close to none will sell to people who don't know Valiant characters.

Without Solar, VH1 and VH2 wouldn't exist... writing around those Gold Key characters would water down any of those stories, and make them feel like a replacement, not a continuation.

My 2¢.

Well, Magnus would not organically fit into the 99 event, while Turok could be off in the Lost Land.

The only question mark is Solar. And, to be honest, his involvement would make it unnecessary for Shadowman to sacrifice himself to rid the world of the Darque power.

So, logically, the '99 event can be told without those three characters.

As for the target audience, yes, of course. It would be done for a percentage of a percentage, but if it can draw back readers who stopped reading and be used as a way to entice them into reading the new comics, it could be worth it.

[slack]

The audience for that is limited. The Q&W thing happened when they were doing well, and they didn't do it again... probably for a reason.

Some Legacy fans will buy.

Far less Modern Valiant fans will.

Likely close to none will sell to people who don't know Valiant characters.

Without Solar, VH1 and VH2 wouldn't exist... writing around those Gold Key characters would water down any of those stories, and make them feel like a replacement, not a continuation.

My 2¢.

Well, Magnus would not organically fit into the 99 event, while Turok could be off in the Lost Land.

The only question mark is Solar. And, to be honest, his involvement would make it unnecessary for Shadowman to sacrifice himself to rid the world of the Darque power.

So, logically, the '99 event can be told without those three characters.

As for the target audience, yes, of course. It would be done for a percentage of a percentage, but if it can draw back readers who stopped reading and be used as a way to entice them into reading the new comics, it could be worth it.

That percentage of a percentage you mention...
it gets much smaller as soon as those people find out the GK3 were left out.

[ManofTheAtom]

The audience for that is limited. The Q&W thing happened when they were doing well, and they didn't do it again... probably for a reason.

Some Legacy fans will buy.

Far less Modern Valiant fans will.

Likely close to none will sell to people who don't know Valiant characters.

Without Solar, VH1 and VH2 wouldn't exist... writing around those Gold Key characters would water down any of those stories, and make them feel like a replacement, not a continuation.

My 2¢.

Well, Magnus would not organically fit into the 99 event, while Turok could be off in the Lost Land.

The only question mark is Solar. And, to be honest, his involvement would make it unnecessary for Shadowman to sacrifice himself to rid the world of the Darque power.

So, logically, the '99 event can be told without those three characters.

As for the target audience, yes, of course. It would be done for a percentage of a percentage, but if it can draw back readers who stopped reading and be used as a way to entice them into reading the new comics, it could be worth it.

That percentage of a percentage you mention...
it gets much smaller as soon as those people find out the GK3 were left out.

Come on. If those characters were really that important in terms of an audience, Dynamite would have made them work.

Do they even still publish them today?

[syzhang28]

If I understand correctly, Q2: The Return of Quantum & Woody (I only read one or two issues, I don't remember) took place in VH 2 canon.

Is that correct?

If so, and with that in mind, what other stories would you like to see set in either VH 1, VH 2, or even VH 3 (i.e. the unpublished Doctor Mirage and Bloodshot reboots) canons?

For instance, would it be at all possible to finally, once and for all, do the 1999 VH 1 event WITHOUT the involvement of Solar?

Not Unity 2000 redux, but a true version of what would have been the '99 event as hinted during the original run of VALIANT comics, with the death of Shadowman at the end?

Such an event would not require Turok, while Magnus is not an issue since he exists in the future. Solar need not be addressed at all.

That aside, what other previous incarnations of the VALIANT heroes would be cool to revisit the way Q2 did Quantum & Woody, and what could those stories be?

In the case of VH 1 it should be stories that one, respect and address the ending of their original volumes (i.e. X-O Manowar #68) and don't contradict Rai #0.

There are three proverbial wolves Alien Books must feed:

The laxed VALIANT fans who stopped buying the comics.
The existing VALIANT fans who are still supporting the comics.
And the people that have never read the comics.

Stories like this feed two of those wolves.

VH1 had many bright moments but for me it's a completed universe. Leave it in the past I say. I'd like them to focus on making what they have work better. VEI had some incredibly high highs. Some of the best modern comic book storytelling. It's fallen quite a way from the 2012-2017 era. Focus on getting back to that quality is my wish.

[slack]

The audience for that is limited. The Q&W thing happened when they were doing well, and they didn't do it again... probably for a reason.

Some Legacy fans will buy.

Far less Modern Valiant fans will.

Likely close to none will sell to people who don't know Valiant characters.

Without Solar, VH1 and VH2 wouldn't exist... writing around those Gold Key characters would water down any of those stories, and make them feel like a replacement, not a continuation.

My 2¢.

Well, Magnus would not organically fit into the 99 event, while Turok could be off in the Lost Land.

The only question mark is Solar. And, to be honest, his involvement would make it unnecessary for Shadowman to sacrifice himself to rid the world of the Darque power.

So, logically, the '99 event can be told without those three characters.

As for the target audience, yes, of course. It would be done for a percentage of a percentage, but if it can draw back readers who stopped reading and be used as a way to entice them into reading the new comics, it could be worth it.

That percentage of a percentage you mention...
it gets much smaller as soon as those people find out the GK3 were left out.

Come on. If those characters were really that important in terms of an audience, Dynamite would have made them work.

Do they even still publish them today?

they're important in terms of a VH1/VH2 audience.

On their own, not popular or well-handled.

In Valiant legacy continuity, they have at least a small but vocal audience.

Valiant is the only place those characters have seen success since the 60s. VH1 is tied fairly strongly with them.

At any rate... that percentage of a percentage you brought up is still the biggest nail in the coffin.

They need to revitalize what's current... and build back some interest before they ever bother with an altered version of legacy universe passion project that will currently draw less than 2500 sales(most likely).

[ManofTheAtom]

The audience for that is limited. The Q&W thing happened when they were doing well, and they didn't do it again... probably for a reason.

Some Legacy fans will buy.

Far less Modern Valiant fans will.

Likely close to none will sell to people who don't know Valiant characters.

Without Solar, VH1 and VH2 wouldn't exist... writing around those Gold Key characters would water down any of those stories, and make them feel like a replacement, not a continuation.

My 2¢.

Well, Magnus would not organically fit into the 99 event, while Turok could be off in the Lost Land.

The only question mark is Solar. And, to be honest, his involvement would make it unnecessary for Shadowman to sacrifice himself to rid the world of the Darque power.

So, logically, the '99 event can be told without those three characters.

As for the target audience, yes, of course. It would be done for a percentage of a percentage, but if it can draw back readers who stopped reading and be used as a way to entice them into reading the new comics, it could be worth it.

That percentage of a percentage you mention...
it gets much smaller as soon as those people find out the GK3 were left out.

Come on. If those characters were really that important in terms of an audience, Dynamite would have made them work.

Do they even still publish them today?

they're important in terms of a VH1/VH2 audience.

On their own, not popular or well-handled.

In Valiant legacy continuity, they have at least a small but vocal audience.

Valiant is the only place those characters have seen success since the 60s. VH1 is tied fairly strongly with them.

At any rate... that percentage of a percentage you brought up is still the biggest nail in the coffin.

They need to revitalize what's current... and build back some interest before they ever bother with an altered version of legacy universe passion project that will currently draw less than 2500 sales(most likely).

I recently saw some sales numbers for VALIANT, but I can't remember if it was here or on the Facebook fans page.

Where would those 2,500 copies fall in compared to what they've sold in the last year?

[ManofTheAtom]

If I understand correctly, Q2: The Return of Quantum & Woody (I only read one or two issues, I don't remember) took place in VH 2 canon.

Is that correct?

If so, and with that in mind, what other stories would you like to see set in either VH 1, VH 2, or even VH 3 (i.e. the unpublished Doctor Mirage and Bloodshot reboots) canons?

For instance, would it be at all possible to finally, once and for all, do the 1999 VH 1 event WITHOUT the involvement of Solar?

Not Unity 2000 redux, but a true version of what would have been the '99 event as hinted during the original run of VALIANT comics, with the death of Shadowman at the end?

Such an event would not require Turok, while Magnus is not an issue since he exists in the future. Solar need not be addressed at all.

That aside, what other previous incarnations of the VALIANT heroes would be cool to revisit the way Q2 did Quantum & Woody, and what could those stories be?

In the case of VH 1 it should be stories that one, respect and address the ending of their original volumes (i.e. X-O Manowar #68) and don't contradict Rai #0.

There are three proverbial wolves Alien Books must feed:

The laxed VALIANT fans who stopped buying the comics.
The existing VALIANT fans who are still supporting the comics.
And the people that have never read the comics.

Stories like this feed two of those wolves.

VH1 had many bright moments but for me it's a completed universe. Leave it in the past I say. I'd like them to focus on making what they have work better. VEI had some incredibly high highs. Some of the best modern comic book storytelling. It's fallen quite a way from the 2012-2017 era. Focus on getting back to that quality is my wish.

Well, Q2 opened the door for them to do anything without really needed to have to worry about continuity (though that is important and it should be resolved at some point, but without a multiverse).

[Chiclo]

The audience for that is limited. The Q&W thing happened when they were doing well, and they didn't do it again... probably for a reason.

Some Legacy fans will buy.

Far less Modern Valiant fans will.

Likely close to none will sell to people who don't know Valiant characters.

Without Solar, VH1 and VH2 wouldn't exist... writing around those Gold Key characters would water down any of those stories, and make them feel like a replacement, not a continuation.

My 2¢.

Well, Magnus would not organically fit into the 99 event, while Turok could be off in the Lost Land.

The only question mark is Solar. And, to be honest, his involvement would make it unnecessary for Shadowman to sacrifice himself to rid the world of the Darque power.

So, logically, the '99 event can be told without those three characters.

As for the target audience, yes, of course. It would be done for a percentage of a percentage, but if it can draw back readers who stopped reading and be used as a way to entice them into reading the new comics, it could be worth it.

That percentage of a percentage you mention...
it gets much smaller as soon as those people find out the GK3 were left out.

Come on. If those characters were really that important in terms of an audience, Dynamite would have made them work.

Do they even still publish them today?

Dynamite does not publish them today because Valiant, as it is now, is not worth ripping off.

Turok probably has the best name recognition of any property associated with any iteration of Valiant, discounting licensed properties like Mario, WWF or even Magic the Gathering. For that matter, Cheeseasaurus Rex might have wider awareness than X-O Manowar.

[ManofTheAtom]

The audience for that is limited. The Q&W thing happened when they were doing well, and they didn't do it again... probably for a reason.

Some Legacy fans will buy.

Far less Modern Valiant fans will.

Likely close to none will sell to people who don't know Valiant characters.

Without Solar, VH1 and VH2 wouldn't exist... writing around those Gold Key characters would water down any of those stories, and make them feel like a replacement, not a continuation.

My 2¢.

Well, Magnus would not organically fit into the 99 event, while Turok could be off in the Lost Land.

The only question mark is Solar. And, to be honest, his involvement would make it unnecessary for Shadowman to sacrifice himself to rid the world of the Darque power.

So, logically, the '99 event can be told without those three characters.

As for the target audience, yes, of course. It would be done for a percentage of a percentage, but if it can draw back readers who stopped reading and be used as a way to entice them into reading the new comics, it could be worth it.

That percentage of a percentage you mention...
it gets much smaller as soon as those people find out the GK3 were left out.

Come on. If those characters were really that important in terms of an audience, Dynamite would have made them work.

Do they even still publish them today?

Dynamite does not publish them today because Valiant, as it is now, is not worth ripping off.

Turok probably has the best name recognition of any property associated with any iteration of Valiant, discounting licensed properties like Mario, WWF or even Magic the Gathering. For that matter, Cheeseasaurus Rex might have wider awareness than X-O Manowar.

Well, hopefully they'll lose the license and Alien will get it.

[Ryan]

If I understand correctly, Q2: The Return of Quantum & Woody (I only read one or two issues, I don't remember) took place in VH 2 canon.

Is that correct?

If so, and with that in mind, what other stories would you like to see set in either VH 1, VH 2, or even VH 3 (i.e. the unpublished Doctor Mirage and Bloodshot reboots) canons?

For instance, would it be at all possible to finally, once and for all, do the 1999 VH 1 event WITHOUT the involvement of Solar?

Not Unity 2000 redux, but a true version of what would have been the '99 event as hinted during the original run of VALIANT comics, with the death of Shadowman at the end?

Such an event would not require Turok, while Magnus is not an issue since he exists in the future. Solar need not be addressed at all.

That aside, what other previous incarnations of the VALIANT heroes would be cool to revisit the way Q2 did Quantum & Woody, and what could those stories be?

In the case of VH 1 it should be stories that one, respect and address the ending of their original volumes (i.e. X-O Manowar #68) and don't contradict Rai #0.

There are three proverbial wolves Alien Books must feed:

The laxed VALIANT fans who stopped buying the comics.
The existing VALIANT fans who are still supporting the comics.
And the people that have never read the comics.

Stories like this feed two of those wolves.

It's so hard to do that without acknowledging a multiverse. I agree with you though, multiverses are played out and an easy button for writers, I'd prefer not to have stories about it.

I think there could be, for example, a Shadowman book that is set in VH1 (like Q2) that exists on its own, not tied to the current continuity. That would be cool, but it would only do well if it was a good book on its own, beyond just the ties to old continuity.

I don't think DMG-Alien would do that though. They have enough of an uphill battle to establish the present versions of the characters in the market. Having more versions and more continuities at this point would only confuse that.

Also, except for Dino obviously, VEI and DMG both have had a serious lack of VALIANT nerds that would actually care about things like Rai 0 and the 1999 event.

I think if this kind thing were to ever happen again, it would be after they had a successful line of current comics going. Marvel and DC have both done projects like it in the past.

[ManofTheAtom]

If I understand correctly, Q2: The Return of Quantum & Woody (I only read one or two issues, I don't remember) took place in VH 2 canon.

Is that correct?

If so, and with that in mind, what other stories would you like to see set in either VH 1, VH 2, or even VH 3 (i.e. the unpublished Doctor Mirage and Bloodshot reboots) canons?

For instance, would it be at all possible to finally, once and for all, do the 1999 VH 1 event WITHOUT the involvement of Solar?

Not Unity 2000 redux, but a true version of what would have been the '99 event as hinted during the original run of VALIANT comics, with the death of Shadowman at the end?

Such an event would not require Turok, while Magnus is not an issue since he exists in the future. Solar need not be addressed at all.

That aside, what other previous incarnations of the VALIANT heroes would be cool to revisit the way Q2 did Quantum & Woody, and what could those stories be?

In the case of VH 1 it should be stories that one, respect and address the ending of their original volumes (i.e. X-O Manowar #68) and don't contradict Rai #0.

There are three proverbial wolves Alien Books must feed:

The laxed VALIANT fans who stopped buying the comics.
The existing VALIANT fans who are still supporting the comics.
And the people that have never read the comics.

Stories like this feed two of those wolves.

It's so hard to do that without acknowledging a multiverse. I agree with you though, multiverses are played out and an easy button for writers, I'd prefer not to have stories about it.

I think there could be, for example, a Shadowman book that is set in VH1 (like Q2) that exists on its own, not tied to the current continuity. That would be cool, but it would only do well if it was a good book on its own, beyond just the ties to old continuity.

I don't think DMG-Alien would do that though. They have enough of an uphill battle to establish the present versions of the characters in the market. Having more versions and more continuities at this point would only confuse that.

Certainly.

Also, except for Dino obviously, VEI and DMG both have had a serious lack of VALIANT nerds that would actually care about things like Rai 0 and the 1999 event.

I think if this kind thing were to ever happen again, it would be after they had a successful line of current comics going. Marvel and DC have both done projects like it in the past.

Yeah.

[Ryan]

Also, except for Dino obviously, VEI and DMG both have had a serious lack of VALIANT nerds that would actually care about things like Rai 0 and the 1999 event.

Yeah it is strange that a company as small as Valiant in an industry as tiny and niche as comics has so few actual nerds working there. I guess that's what speculative movie money gets you.

It does seem to me that after the Shooter fiasco Dino wanted to intentionally hire people who weren't Valiant fans. I get the thinking behind that, people without that long term fandom might have a 'fresher' take on the characters. There is something that's lost though as well.

[ManofTheAtom]

Also, except for Dino obviously, VEI and DMG both have had a serious lack of VALIANT nerds that would actually care about things like Rai 0 and the 1999 event.

Yeah it is strange that a company as small as Valiant in an industry as tiny and niche as comics has so few actual nerds working there. I guess that's what speculative movie money gets you.

It does seem to me that after the Shooter fiasco Dino wanted to intentionally hire people who weren't Valiant fans. I get the thinking behind that, people without that long term fandom might have a 'fresher' take on the characters. There is something that's lost though as well.

You do need the objectivity, but you also need the passion for the characters.

[Ryan]

Also, except for Dino obviously, VEI and DMG both have had a serious lack of VALIANT nerds that would actually care about things like Rai 0 and the 1999 event.

Yeah it is strange that a company as small as Valiant in an industry as tiny and niche as comics has so few actual nerds working there. I guess that's what speculative movie money gets you.

It does seem to me that after the Shooter fiasco Dino wanted to intentionally hire people who weren't Valiant fans. I get the thinking behind that, people without that long term fandom might have a 'fresher' take on the characters. There is something that's lost though as well.

You do need the objectivity, but you also need the passion for the characters.

Exactly

[Ryan]

they're important in terms of a VH1/VH2 audience.

On their own, not popular or well-handled.

So true

[Ryan]

Dynamite does not publish them today because Valiant, as it is now, is not worth ripping off.

Also true, it seemed their plan was to ride the wave that VEI was creating. Along with the VIP shenanigans, they come off as really scummy.

Their GK licensed stuff kept getting farther from the source and worse in quality. Why even call it Turok or Magnus if there's no resemblance? I guess for the 'name' brand but really what's the point.

[Hotwire]

There was this dude at Raiford with multiple cannons. Honestly, we left him alone.

[ManofTheAtom]

There was this dude at Raiford with multiple cannons. Honestly, we left him alone.

Heh.

[Ryan]

For instance, would it be at all possible to finally, once and for all, do the 1999 VH 1 event WITHOUT the involvement of Solar?

Not Unity 2000 redux, but a true version of what would have been the '99 event as hinted during the original run of VALIANT comics, with the death of Shadowman at the end?

Was thinking about the 1999 event again. It could definitely be done without Solar. In some ways it actually negates Solar.

Darque Power (Necromantic Energy) and many of the supernatural aspects of the Valiant universe were created when Solar created the black hole, destroying his world (or universe), causing an influx of 'death energy' into the new world (the Valiant universe).

Ridding the world of the Darque Power in 1999 would pretty much wrap up the major story arc that was begun in Solar #0.

Screenshot 2024-02-03 175451.png

This is the only panel from Rai #0 that's relevant to the 1999 event. It leaves a lot open to interpretation. "The dark vested hero called Shadowman gave up his life to rid humanity of the Darque Power."

All we see is a generic shot of Geoff talking to a gathering of heroes on what seems to be a spaceship. No bodies, no Shadowman, no Darque. The fact that Solar is in the group of heroes on the spaceship doesn't mean he was involved with the event.

The text says that Geoff is 'recruiting help against the Darque Power', so there's nothing definitively said that any of the characters pictured actually participated in the event.

[slack]

... blah blah, what if they, blah blah, ignore the GK3... yadda

The people who would be interested, are very few.
Of those few, most acknowledge the need for the GK3.
Why put something out that will pizz off most of the tiny audience it could have?

Does someone at Valiant ask you to test these bad ideas for them?

[Ryan]

To further this conversation, I'm quoting some posts from this thread Story idea for VEI comic launch from 2010:

You could always put in a story that Jack traveled back in time to complete some task knowing that he would die but would sacrifice himself to stop an evil of some sort, maybe Darque trying to mess with the time stream to keep the heroes from coming pack in 2010... or have it to do with Darque and the changing of the millennium?

The paradox of Jack showing up in 2010 instead of dying in 1999 could be used as the event that causes the change in continuity. If the Darque Power was supposed to not exist after 1999, then it shows up 11 years after it's gone . . .

Interesting

How about this...

What if Jack DOES die in 1999, but he first lived until, say, 2030 or something? He goes back in time and his "future" self dies in 1999.


(Ok, ok, I'm gonna go lay down now.)

Interesting x2

In all seriousness, the first thing I'd do is ask Bob Hall how he planned the 1999 bit and see if that could be worked in. If not, cool; them's the breaks, but if so . . .

Check out this recent interview (4 months ago) with Bob where he talks about these very things. https://youtu.be/9IuVMnCCXjQ?si=MtA8eBhmu9gMfgGq&t=5770 Shadowman stuff starts around 1hr36min mark

Although I like a lot of the ideas here, I think there's an easier way. Just rewrite the epilogue of Deathmate so that Solar and Void hook up, two universes die, and Darque absorbs all that necromantic energy so he can create his own universe. Since it's doubtful that he would create a universe containing someone as powerful as him, Solar wouldn't exist.

But then I doubt a lot of the other characters would exist either.

Burrito Boy with another interesting zinger

[Ryan]

... blah blah, what if they, blah blah, ignore the GK3... yadda

The people who would be interested, are very few.
Of those few, most acknowledge the need for the GK3.
Why put something out that will pizz off most of the tiny audience it could have?

Does someone at Valiant ask you to test these bad ideas for them?

Dude we're just talking about comic books that we like, VH1, the 1999 event, etc. We're not submitting proposals to DMG or Alien on what to make. Who cares if it's 'marketable'? Plenty of other threads to talk about VEI and marketability.

[ManofTheAtom]

For instance, would it be at all possible to finally, once and for all, do the 1999 VH 1 event WITHOUT the involvement of Solar?

Not Unity 2000 redux, but a true version of what would have been the '99 event as hinted during the original run of VALIANT comics, with the death of Shadowman at the end?

Was thinking about the 1999 event again. It could definitely be done without Solar. In some ways it actually negates Solar.

Darque Power (Necromantic Energy) and many of the supernatural aspects of the Valiant universe were created when Solar created the black hole, destroying his world (or universe), causing an influx of 'death energy' into the new world (the Valiant universe).

Ridding the world of the Darque Power in 1999 would pretty much wrap up the major story arc that was begun in Solar #0.


Screenshot 2024-02-03 175451.png


This is the only panel from Rai #0 that's relevant to the 1999 event. It leaves a lot open to interpretation. "The dark vested hero called Shadowman gave up his life to rid humanity of the Darque Power."

All we see is a generic shot of Geoff talking to a gathering of heroes on what seems to be a spaceship. No bodies, no Shadowman, no Darque. The fact that Solar is in the group of heroes on the spaceship doesn't mean he was involved with the event.

The text says that Geoff is 'recruiting help against the Darque Power', so there's nothing definitively said that any of the characters pictured actually participated in the event.

We know Solar exiles himself after he splits into the Explorer, but that doesn't happen until the 2060s I think.

That seems to be his only active contribution to Rai #0. He isn't really connected to any other event mentioned in it, is he?