VH-2 Reprints?

[Ryan]

Dinesh did what Nicieza should have done from the start; infuse new ideas into the existing narrative.

Bloodshot: "I'm Angelo Mortalli, Mafia hitman who was sold out to a Japanese conglomerate after I testified against the Don to be experimented on -- holy crap, no I'm not! I'm actually Raymond Garrison, a US special forces soldier (or whatever the hell he is), and I was experimented on by an American weapons manufacturer to test out their new nanite technology!" or whatever the proper phrasing might be.

That's the kind of rug pulling Bloodshot needed (or, alternatively, the introduction of Raymond Garrison as a new Bloodshot after Angelo died at the end of issue #51).

With Shadowman, after Jack jumped off the building he could have awoken in Deadside, an afterlife he had no idea existed because neither Nettie nor Darque every brought it up until that moment. He wakes up there, finds out he's dead, and has to decide whether he wants to stay or return to life.

That is how it works when old comics grow stale. Whether it's the above examples, or someone like Johns introducing different versions of power rings and corps in the Green Lantern comic book.

That's one way Nicieza could have chosen to do it instead of a reboot.

What Dinesh chose to do was take what was there and introduce such things as Deadside and Raymond Garrison from the onset, and there was nothing wrong with it.

It just sounds like you have a grudge against Nicieza, while you give a pass to Dinesh for doing the same things.

[ManofTheAtom]

Dinesh did what Nicieza should have done from the start; infuse new ideas into the existing narrative.

Bloodshot: "I'm Angelo Mortalli, Mafia hitman who was sold out to a Japanese conglomerate after I testified against the Don to be experimented on -- holy crap, no I'm not! I'm actually Raymond Garrison, a US special forces soldier (or whatever the hell he is), and I was experimented on by an American weapons manufacturer to test out their new nanite technology!" or whatever the proper phrasing might be.

That's the kind of rug pulling Bloodshot needed (or, alternatively, the introduction of Raymond Garrison as a new Bloodshot after Angelo died at the end of issue #51).

With Shadowman, after Jack jumped off the building he could have awoken in Deadside, an afterlife he had no idea existed because neither Nettie nor Darque every brought it up until that moment. He wakes up there, finds out he's dead, and has to decide whether he wants to stay or return to life.

That is how it works when old comics grow stale. Whether it's the above examples, or someone like Johns introducing different versions of power rings and corps in the Green Lantern comic book.

That's one way Nicieza could have chosen to do it instead of a reboot.

What Dinesh chose to do was take what was there and introduce such things as Deadside and Raymond Garrison from the onset, and there was nothing wrong with it.

It just sounds like you have a grudge against Nicieza, while you give a pass to Dinesh for doing the same things.

Dinesh didn't do the same thing, though. He brought the original characters back, but kept what he determined worked from VH-2 that didn't disrupt what made VALIANT what it was. Had he kept the idiotic ideas like Busiek's video game villains then there'd be a problem, but he didn't.

What Nicieza did was toss out everything that made VALIANT what it was and replaced it with popular names in the credit boxes.

[ManofTheAtom]

The Boon in VEI is not the same as the origin of the immortals in VH-2.

Shadowman took Deadside from VH-2, but it is still overall the VH-1 version at its core. With Bloodshot, he merely replaced the Italian mafia stuff from VH-1 with the military/intelligence angle.

The origin of the Immortals in VEI is much more similar to VH2 than VH1.

There is no Deadside and very little pure fantasy in VH1 Shadowman. VH2 and VEI Shadowman both use Deadside and a much more Voodoo Fantasy. Visually VEI SM is also more similar to VH2 SM. VH1 SM is Creole, VH2 and VEI are not.

The origin of the immortals in VH-2 was a magic plant. In VEI it was advanced technology. Not the same.

Yeah, for Shadowman he retained the fantasy element and made it work without going overboard with it like VH-2 did.

[Ryan]

The origin of the immortals in VH-2 was a magic plant. In VEI it was advanced technology. Not the same.

Yeah, for Shadowman he retained the fantasy element and made it work without going overboard with it like VH-2 did.

But what if the magic plant was just 'technology so advanced that it seemed like magic'?

That's a matter of opinion, I would say VEI SM went overboard with fantasy and magic compared to Vh1 SM.

[Ryan]

Dinesh didn't do the same thing, though. He brought the original characters back, but kept what he determined worked from VH-2 that didn't disrupt what made VALIANT what it was. Had he kept the idiotic ideas like Busiek's video game villains then there'd be a problem, but he didn't.

What Nicieza did was toss out everything that made VALIANT what it was and replaced it with popular names in the credit boxes.

You just seem to really have a grudge against Nicieza and Busiek. VEI leaned a lot more toward fantasy than Vh1, and had plenty of goofball stuff like in Q&W that wouldn't be too far off from Busiek's Ninjak, which was obviously trying to capture a younger readership.

I get it though, most of the people on this board were either insiders during the VEI era and are good friends of Dino, or like yourself were hired by him for some tasks 14 years ago, so you all see it as a personal affront if anyone criticizes VEI. Fine. I've never made it personal about any of the creators, just sought to have a realistic assessment (post-mortem) of VEI now that its over and the fandom has shrunk instead of grown over the course of the era.

[ManofTheAtom]

The origin of the immortals in VH-2 was a magic plant. In VEI it was advanced technology. Not the same.

Yeah, for Shadowman he retained the fantasy element and made it work without going overboard with it like VH-2 did.

But what if the magic plant was just 'technology so advanced that it seemed like magic'?

That's a matter of opinion, I would say VEI SM went overboard with fantasy and magic compared to Vh1 SM.

https://valiant.fandom.com/wiki/The_Bloom

Technology had nothing to do with it.

[Ryan]

https://valiant.fandom.com/wiki/The_Bloom

Technology had nothing to do with it.

Ok, now do Resurgence. Where's the technology there.

[ManofTheAtom]

https://valiant.fandom.com/wiki/The_Bloom

Technology had nothing to do with it.

Ok, now do Resurgence. Where's the technology there.

It was already shown in The VALIANTS that Silk is using another version of the Boon.

[Ryan]

https://valiant.fandom.com/wiki/The_Bloom

Technology had nothing to do with it.

Ok, now do Resurgence. Where's the technology there.

It was already shown in The VALIANTS that Silk is using another version of the Boon.

And in the pages you show, the plant comes from a meteor, alien seeds, thus just advanced technology.

The Boon is not hard science. Magic with science jargon is still fantasy.

[ManofTheAtom]

https://valiant.fandom.com/wiki/The_Bloom

Technology had nothing to do with it.

Ok, now do Resurgence. Where's the technology there.

It was already shown in The VALIANTS that Silk is using another version of the Boon.

And in the pages you show, the plant comes from a meteor, alien seeds, thus just advanced technology.

The Boon is not hard science. Magic with science jargon is still fantasy.

Seeds are not technology. They are a natural occurrence.

[Ryan]

https://valiant.fandom.com/wiki/The_Bloom

Technology had nothing to do with it.

Ok, now do Resurgence. Where's the technology there.

It was already shown in The VALIANTS that Silk is using another version of the Boon.

And in the pages you show, the plant comes from a meteor, alien seeds, thus just advanced technology.

The Boon is not hard science. Magic with science jargon is still fantasy.

Seeds are not technology. They are a natural occurrence.

Advanced alien biology then. Still science. Advanced alien societies could also have highly developed bio-engineering technology so that they can create things like plants, seeds, etc. Exactly like how the X-O armor was created.

[ManofTheAtom]

https://valiant.fandom.com/wiki/The_Bloom

Technology had nothing to do with it.

Ok, now do Resurgence. Where's the technology there.

It was already shown in The VALIANTS that Silk is using another version of the Boon.

And in the pages you show, the plant comes from a meteor, alien seeds, thus just advanced technology.

The Boon is not hard science. Magic with science jargon is still fantasy.

Seeds are not technology. They are a natural occurrence.

Advanced alien biology then. Still science. Advanced alien societies could also have highly developed bio-engineering technology so that they can create things like plants, seeds, etc. Exactly like how the X-O armor was created.

No, it was a rock that fell from the sky and changed a plant. That's fantasy, not science.

[Ryan]

Ok, now do Resurgence. Where's the technology there.

It was already shown in The VALIANTS that Silk is using another version of the Boon.

And in the pages you show, the plant comes from a meteor, alien seeds, thus just advanced technology.

The Boon is not hard science. Magic with science jargon is still fantasy.

Seeds are not technology. They are a natural occurrence.

Advanced alien biology then. Still science. Advanced alien societies could also have highly developed bio-engineering technology so that they can create things like plants, seeds, etc. Exactly like how the X-O armor was created.

No, it was a rock that fell from the sky and changed a plant. That's fantasy, not science.

It's an "alien plant", thus just a form of science that's so advanced it seems like magic to us. It's Science fiction, not fantasy. I don't see any orcs or elves.

[ManofTheAtom]

It was already shown in The VALIANTS that Silk is using another version of the Boon.

And in the pages you show, the plant comes from a meteor, alien seeds, thus just advanced technology.

The Boon is not hard science. Magic with science jargon is still fantasy.

Seeds are not technology. They are a natural occurrence.

Advanced alien biology then. Still science. Advanced alien societies could also have highly developed bio-engineering technology so that they can create things like plants, seeds, etc. Exactly like how the X-O armor was created.

No, it was a rock that fell from the sky and changed a plant. That's fantasy, not science.

It's an "alien plant", thus just a form of science that's so advanced it seems like magic to us. It's Science fiction, not fantasy. I don't see any orcs or elves.

Technology is man-made, this was not man-made.

[Ryan]

And in the pages you show, the plant comes from a meteor, alien seeds, thus just advanced technology.

The Boon is not hard science. Magic with science jargon is still fantasy.

Seeds are not technology. They are a natural occurrence.

Advanced alien biology then. Still science. Advanced alien societies could also have highly developed bio-engineering technology so that they can create things like plants, seeds, etc. Exactly like how the X-O armor was created.

No, it was a rock that fell from the sky and changed a plant. That's fantasy, not science.

It's an "alien plant", thus just a form of science that's so advanced it seems like magic to us. It's Science fiction, not fantasy. I don't see any orcs or elves.

Technology is man-made, this was not man-made.

So then the X-O armor isn't technology then? Bio-engineering is not a form or technology to you?

[ManofTheAtom]

Seeds are not technology. They are a natural occurrence.

Advanced alien biology then. Still science. Advanced alien societies could also have highly developed bio-engineering technology so that they can create things like plants, seeds, etc. Exactly like how the X-O armor was created.

No, it was a rock that fell from the sky and changed a plant. That's fantasy, not science.

It's an "alien plant", thus just a form of science that's so advanced it seems like magic to us. It's Science fiction, not fantasy. I don't see any orcs or elves.

Technology is man-made, this was not man-made.

So then the X-O armor isn't technology then? Bio-engineering is not a form or technology to you?

The X-O Manowar is technology. The Bloom was not. It was just a meteor that either affected existing flora or carried "alien seeds" to Earth. That's nature, not technology.

Both origins of the X-O Manowar involve the use of technology.

[Ryan]

Advanced alien biology then. Still science. Advanced alien societies could also have highly developed bio-engineering technology so that they can create things like plants, seeds, etc. Exactly like how the X-O armor was created.

No, it was a rock that fell from the sky and changed a plant. That's fantasy, not science.

It's an "alien plant", thus just a form of science that's so advanced it seems like magic to us. It's Science fiction, not fantasy. I don't see any orcs or elves.

Technology is man-made, this was not man-made.

So then the X-O armor isn't technology then? Bio-engineering is not a form or technology to you?

The X-O Manowar is technology. The Bloom was not. It was just a meteor that either affected existing flora or carried "alien seeds" to Earth. That's nature, not technology.

Both origins of the X-O Manowar involve the use of technology.

"Nature" is just a technology that's beyond our current understanding. Perhaps even a technology so advanced that it seems like magic to us. Clarke's third law even.

[Chiclo]

The origin of the immortals in VH-2 was a magic plant. In VEI it was advanced technology. Not the same.

Yeah, for Shadowman he retained the fantasy element and made it work without going overboard with it like VH-2 did.

But what if the magic plant was just 'technology so advanced that it seemed like magic'?

That's a matter of opinion, I would say VEI SM went overboard with fantasy and magic compared to Vh1 SM.

https://valiant.fandom.com/wiki/The_Bloom

Technology had nothing to do with it.

Not technology but the explanation is still naturalistic and without supernatural (albeit alien) cause, at least not as shown on these two pages. The claims made by Mog that these plants were sent by a god could just as easily be coming from some kind of drug-fueled dementia from that same plant.

Is this excerpt from the Eternal Warriors Mog issue? I think I last read that somewhere around 2007. My memory of that issue has faded.

[Chiclo]

Advanced alien biology then. Still science. Advanced alien societies could also have highly developed bio-engineering technology so that they can create things like plants, seeds, etc. Exactly like how the X-O armor was created.

No, it was a rock that fell from the sky and changed a plant. That's fantasy, not science.

It's an "alien plant", thus just a form of science that's so advanced it seems like magic to us. It's Science fiction, not fantasy. I don't see any orcs or elves.

Technology is man-made, this was not man-made.

So then the X-O armor isn't technology then? Bio-engineering is not a form or technology to you?

The X-O Manowar is technology. The Bloom was not. It was just a meteor that either affected existing flora or carried "alien seeds" to Earth. That's nature, not technology.

Both origins of the X-O Manowar involve the use of technology.

Wait, I am agreeing with MotA on this one?

What have you done, Ryan?

[Ryan]

Not technology but the explanation is still naturalistic and without supernatural (albeit alien) cause, at least not as shown on these two pages. The claims made by Mog that these plants were sent by a god could just as easily be coming from some kind of drug-fueled dementia from that same plant.

Is this excerpt from the Eternal Warriors Mog issue? I think I last read that somewhere around 2007. My memory of that issue has faded.

"Gods" in this context could very well just be advanced alien beings.

Wait, I am agreeing with MotA on this one?

What have you done, Ryan?

I agree with Mota on plenty of things. Just not the inconsistency of his arguments.

I've never even read these pages before yesterday. I'm just pointing out how things like "Clarke's Third Law" and "science so advanced it seems like magic" can be applied to anything after the fact to turn 'fantasy' into 'science fiction', making those explanations virtually meaningless. Especially when they aren't used in the actual text, just applied after the fact.

[Chiclo]

Not technology but the explanation is still naturalistic and without supernatural (albeit alien) cause, at least not as shown on these two pages. The claims made by Mog that these plants were sent by a god could just as easily be coming from some kind of drug-fueled dementia from that same plant.

Is this excerpt from the Eternal Warriors Mog issue? I think I last read that somewhere around 2007. My memory of that issue has faded.

"Gods" in this context could very well just be advanced alien beings.

Wait, I am agreeing with MotA on this one?

What have you done, Ryan?

I agree with Mota on plenty of things. Just not the inconsistency of his arguments.

I've never even read these pages before yesterday. I'm just pointing out how things like "Clarke's Third Law" and "science so advanced it seems like magic" can be applied to anything after the fact to turn 'fantasy' into 'science fiction', making those explanations virtually meaningless. Especially when they aren't used in the actual text, just applied after the fact.

What he thinks are gods could just as easily be voices in his head. Or aliens. Or personal embodiments of elemental forces.

I started a thread a year or so ago about the logical assumptions behind Clarke’s Third Law. The law does not rule out magic or say that it cannot exist, only offer a possible alternative. It also assumes a common understanding of what magic is and what it looks like, that we might have something to compare the advanced technology against - if anything, Clarke’s third law suggests that magic would have to exist for us to have such a common understanding of what it might look like.

[Ryan]

What he thinks are gods could just as easily be voices in his head. Or aliens. Or personal embodiments of elemental forces.

I started a thread a year or so ago about the logical assumptions behind Clarke’s Third Law. The law does not rule out magic or say that it cannot exist, only offer a possible alternative. It also assumes a common understanding of what magic is and what it looks like, that we might have something to compare the advanced technology against - if anything, Clarke’s third law suggests that magic would have to exist for us to have such a common understanding of what it might look like.

I don't disagree with any of that. My only objection is to using "Clarke's third law" as a way to explain fantasy elements in comics that its never mentioned in. Like Resurgence for example.

[ManofTheAtom]

Not technology but the explanation is still naturalistic and without supernatural (albeit alien) cause, at least not as shown on these two pages. The claims made by Mog that these plants were sent by a god could just as easily be coming from some kind of drug-fueled dementia from that same plant.

Is this excerpt from the Eternal Warriors Mog issue? I think I last read that somewhere around 2007. My memory of that issue has faded.

He was a Viking. I just finished watching that series, and in it they thought everything came from the Gods. That was just his perspective on it.

Yes, it's from that issue.

Edit: Sorry, it's not from Mog, it's from Immortal Enemy.

[ManofTheAtom]

What he thinks are gods could just as easily be voices in his head. Or aliens. Or personal embodiments of elemental forces.

I started a thread a year or so ago about the logical assumptions behind Clarke’s Third Law. The law does not rule out magic or say that it cannot exist, only offer a possible alternative. It also assumes a common understanding of what magic is and what it looks like, that we might have something to compare the advanced technology against - if anything, Clarke’s third law suggests that magic would have to exist for us to have such a common understanding of what it might look like.

I don't disagree with any of that. My only objection is to using "Clarke's third law" as a way to explain fantasy elements in comics that its never mentioned in. Like Resurgence for example.

Once again, The VALIANTS already established that Silk is using another Boon to stop people from dying. That's technology.

[Ryan]

What he thinks are gods could just as easily be voices in his head. Or aliens. Or personal embodiments of elemental forces.

I started a thread a year or so ago about the logical assumptions behind Clarke’s Third Law. The law does not rule out magic or say that it cannot exist, only offer a possible alternative. It also assumes a common understanding of what magic is and what it looks like, that we might have something to compare the advanced technology against - if anything, Clarke’s third law suggests that magic would have to exist for us to have such a common understanding of what it might look like.

I don't disagree with any of that. My only objection is to using "Clarke's third law" as a way to explain fantasy elements in comics that its never mentioned in. Like Resurgence for example.

Once again, The VALIANTS already established that Silk is using another Boon to stop people from dying. That's technology.

Yup, just like the Cosmic Cube is technology as well.