Was Wizard a Necessary Evil?

shaxper · Post by **shaxper** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 9:09 pm

It seems clear to me that Wizard was largely responsible for the decline of Valiant, first over-hyping collectors into believing each issue was an instant collector's item, and then turning a blind eye to Valiant once collectors figured out otherwise, but was Wizard also good for Valiant?

From my own perspective, I never would have even thought to consider Valiant if Wizard hadn't made a big deal about them; first putting X-O on the cover and then talking up Valiant like there was no tomorrow. Is that also true for most fans and retailers? Would Unity have really caught anyone's attention without Wizard promoting it up the *SQUEE* (plus all the Valiant advertisements in Wizard)? Would Valiant have broken out of obscurity without Wizard to aid it?

Maybe this is really a two part question. I could see how someone would disagree with my first assumption too...

cjv · Post by **cjv** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 9:47 pm

Good question. I don't know if I blame Wizard per say. The whole "collecting" mentality, which led to over production, purchasing multiple copies, hyping story lines and (IMO) the decline of the story.

Wizard definitely played into the hype and helped promote the collectors attitude, but I don't know if I think they caused it. I think the industry was sort of heading in that direction prior to the publication of Wizard - Wizard may have just hastened it or helped it along.

But the question remains, would Valiant have become as big as they were without Wizard. Yeah, their storylines were great, but how many people would have given Valiant a chance without someone writing every month about this great new young company.

I think that Wizard probably partly responsible for the rise of Valiant, by turning many eyes of comic readers who otherwise might have missed out. The problem was when Wizard CONTINUED to hype Valiant, and brought too many eyes to them. Everyone then thought they could make a quick buck by buying (for example) Turok 1, and selling it 3 or 4 months later.

I would be interested to know how many people here gave Valiant a shot because of a article (or price guide?) in Wizard.

Chris

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 10:23 pm

Wizard made Valiant. Valiant made Wizard. Even if there was no 'official' connection between the two companies, Gareb and management at Valiant (not necessarily Shooter) definitely had a 'friendly' relationship.

Wizard almost didn't make it....they were in dire straights with the publication of #7....and then....put Venom on the cover of #8 and they were off. By the end of 1992, both Valiant and Wizard were top of the walk, so much so that by the middle of 1993, Overstreet couldn't compete, and ceased to put out the Bulletin...followed, lamentably, by 'Fan'....an attempt to duplicate Wizard's success, which failed miserably.

Wizard tapped into the thing that was missing in the industry: a connection to the fanboy that has proven, over and over, to be the entire foundation that drives it. Overstreet was for 'serious' collectors, the other price guides were dull, and woefully inaccurate...Wizard, however, was flashy, gossipy, and basically was CBG...for adolescents. News, features, previews...and a Hot Picks section that has DRIVEN the market for almost 13 years.

Valiant tapped into that same market, and since it came along at EXACTLY the same time as Wizard, the two companies shared a metaphysical kinship, and they had a wonderful symbiosis. Valiant was telling stories that people dug, without being 'adult', and without being 'gimmicky', at a time when Marvel was going nuts with glow in the darks, foil embossed, bagged, fried, parboiled, etc, and Wizard took note.

Wizard also noted that every single issue sold out, sometimes incredibly fast, and found a company they could relate to, a 'little fish in a big pond', and spent two years preaching the Valiant word to any and all.

To call Wizard biased towards Valiant at the expense of every other comic company might be a stretch. Suffice it to say, no other company has had more top ten books stay in the top ten longer than Valiant, to this day. Ultimate Spiderman #1 has come close, and may pass it, but that's one book versus the 7, 8, 9 books Valiant had in the top ten at one time.

Were they ACTUALLY the top ten books sought after in the US? Or was it a just a case of 'speaking it into existence', wherein people became convinced they were the 'hottest' books in the country BECAUSE Wizard told them, and because Wizard told them, it became a self fulfilling prophecy...?

My money's on the latter.

Without the other, neither Wizard NOR Valiant would have been anywhere near as revolutionary as they were.

That said....Wizard was the first to betray the company when things turned bad, and uses Valiant as a joke to this (almost) day. Wizard has the balls to talk about the 'downfall' of Valiant....and utterly ignores its own part in said downfall.

Businesswise, it's pretty smart....intellectual honestywise....it's pretty crappy.

Maybe someone at Wizard has grown up and seen the reality behind Valiant now.

lobo · Post by **lobo** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 10:24 pm

It was pretty much Wizard that made me go out and try Valiant in the first place. They were hyping Unity in a preview and I thought 'what the heck!'
I also bought and read wizard for the first 75 issues or so but NEVER put any stock in their price guide. There was usually some good articles and I always looked forward to the top ten lists with baited breath!

Today I don't even blink at Wizard on the shelf and only hear about it from what others have said about current issues.

The Spider · Post by **The Spider** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 10:38 pm

ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:Wizard made Valiant. Valiant made Wizard. Even if there was no 'official' connection between the two companies, Gareb and management at Valiant (not necessarily Shooter) definitely had a 'friendly' relationship.

Wizard almost didn't make it....they were in dire straights with the publication of #7....and then....put Venom on the cover of #8 and they were off.

Actually, Bishop was on the cover of #8. I think Venom was on #9's.

By the end of 1992, both Valiant and Wizard were top of the walk, so much so that by the middle of 1993, Overstreet couldn't compete, and ceased to put out the Bulletin...followed, lamentably, by 'Fan'....an attempt to duplicate Wizard's success, which failed miserably.

Wizard tapped into the thing that was missing in the industry: a connection to the fanboy that has proven, over and over, to be the entire foundation that drives it. Overstreet was for 'serious' collectors, the other price guides were dull, and woefully inaccurate...Wizard, however, was flashy, gossipy, and basically was CBG...for adolescents. News, features, previews...and a Hot Picks section that has DRIVEN the market for almost 13 years.

Valiant tapped into that same market, and since it came along at EXACTLY the same time as Wizard, the two companies shared a metaphysical kinship, and they had a wonderful symbiosis. Valiant was telling stories that people dug, without being 'adult', and without being 'gimmicky', at a time when Marvel was going nuts with glow in the darks, foil embossed, bagged, fried, parboiled, etc, and Wizard took note.

Wizard also noted that every single issue sold out, sometimes incredibly fast, and found a company they could relate to, a 'little fish in a big pond', and spent two years preaching the Valiant word to any and all.

To call Wizard biased towards Valiant at the expense of every other comic company might be a stretch. Suffice it to say, no other company has had more top ten books stay in the top ten longer than Valiant, to this day. Ultimate Spiderman #1 has come close, and may pass it, but that's one book versus the 7, 8, 9 books Valiant had in the top ten at one time.

Were they ACTUALLY the top ten books sought after in the US? Or was it a just a case of 'speaking it into existence', wherein people became convinced they were the 'hottest' books in the country BECAUSE Wizard told them, and because Wizard told them, it became a self fulfilling prophecy...?

My money's on the latter.

Without the other, neither Wizard NOR Valiant would have been anywhere near as revolutionary as they were.

That said....Wizard was the first to betray the company when things turned bad, and uses Valiant as a joke to this (almost) day. Wizard has the balls to talk about the 'downfall' of Valiant....and utterly ignores its own part in said downfall.

Businesswise, it's pretty smart....intellectual honestywise....it's pretty crappy.

Maybe someone at Wizard has grown up and seen the reality behind Valiant now.

What about Image? Wasn't that as important as Valiant in making Wizard a success? Especially since Gareb Shamus admitted that he and his family were friends with Todd McFarlane, Rob Liefeld, and Jim Lee around the time Wizard was still in its early stage.

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 10:56 pm

The Spider wrote: Actually, Bishop was on the cover of #8. I think Venom was on #9's.

You may be right....but whatever the first cover with X-O was, whether 7 or 8, was the first time Wizard had a 'direct' cover and a 'newstand' cover. I'd have to pull out my copies to be sure.

What about Image? Wasn't that as important as Valiant in making Wizard a success? Especially since Gareb Shamus admitted that he and his family were friends with Todd McFarlane, Rob Liefeld, and Jim Lee around the time Wizard was still in its early stage.

Nope. While incredibly hyped, it was that hype that did Image in. The initial books had print runs in the millions, they were DISASTERS, and there wasn't a single on time Image book until two YEARS after Image came into being.

Wizard would have LOVED to hype Image....but Image was done in by it's own crapulence. Millions of copies = no scarcity = no back issue market = nothing to hype as 'collectible' = no fuel for the fire.

The Spider · Post by **The Spider** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:02 pm

It was #7 that had the X-O cover (and the Flash for newsstand). Now that I think of it, #9 was Venom, all right. #8 was Bishop (I checked Mile High), and I have #10, which had the Shaft/Cable cover Liefeld did that got Wizard into some trouble with Marvel.

greg · Post by **greg** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:03 pm

ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:Wizard would have LOVED to hype Image....but Image was done in by it's own crapulence. Millions of copies = no scarcity = no back issue market = nothing to hype as 'collectible' = no fuel for the fire.

They tried, though...

I remember Wizard Top Tens with...
Spawn #1
Spawn #4 (with coupon)
WildCats #2 Prism Cover
Prophet #4A Stephen Platt Variant
Youngblood #4 (first Wetworks)
...and probably a few others that I'm forgetting...

The Spider · Post by **The Spider** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:07 pm

ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:
What about Image? Wasn't that as important as Valiant in making Wizard a success? Especially since Gareb Shamus admitted that he and his family were friends with Todd McFarlane, Rob Liefeld, and Jim Lee around the time Wizard was still in its early stage.
Nope. While incredibly hyped, it was that hype that did Image in. The initial books had print runs in the millions, they were DISASTERS, and there wasn't a single on time Image book until two YEARS after Image came into being.

Wizard would have LOVED to hype Image....but Image was done in by it's own crapulence. Millions of copies = no scarcity = no back issue market = nothing to hype as 'collectible' = no fuel for the fire.

But I think Wizard DID hype Image quite a lot, from what I remember. Despite Image's lateness, the company was brought up often in the magazine. Weren't there more Image covers than Valiant covers, anyway?

The Spider · Post by **The Spider** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:10 pm

greg wrote:
ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:Wizard would have LOVED to hype Image....but Image was done in by it's own crapulence. Millions of copies = no scarcity = no back issue market = nothing to hype as 'collectible' = no fuel for the fire.
They tried, though...

I remember Wizard Top Tens with...
Spawn #1
Spawn #4 (with coupon)
WildCats #2 Prism Cover
Prophet #4A Stephen Platt Variant
Youngblood #4 (first Wetworks)
...and probably a few others that I'm forgetting...

Spawn #2 and 3 showed up as well around 1993. Gen 13 #1 and 2 also, in 1994.

DJSpecter · Post by **DJSpecter** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:13 pm

without being 'gimmicky', at a time when Marvel was going nuts with glow in the darks, foil embossed, bagged, fried, parboiled, etc, and Wizard took note.

hmm, I thought that Bloodshot 1 was the first comic cover to feature a foil, and X-O 0 the first with a wrap-around.

(am I wrong?)

-Dave

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:25 pm

greg wrote:
ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:Wizard would have LOVED to hype Image....but Image was done in by it's own crapulence. Millions of copies = no scarcity = no back issue market = nothing to hype as 'collectible' = no fuel for the fire.
They tried, though...

I remember Wizard Top Tens with...
Spawn #1
Spawn #4 (with coupon)
WildCats #2 Prism Cover
Prophet #4A Stephen Platt Variant
Youngblood #4 (first Wetworks)
...and probably a few others that I'm forgetting...

They tried indeed....it says something when none of those books last more than 4 months in the top ten, with the (possible; I'm too lazy to check it out) exception of Spawn #1.

greg · Post by **greg** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:32 pm

DJSpecter wrote:hmm, I thought that Bloodshot 1 was the first comic cover to feature a foil, and X-O 0 the first with a wrap-around.

(am I wrong?)

-Dave

Those books were the first for "chromium" specifically.

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:38 pm

The Spider wrote:But I think Wizard DID hype Image quite a lot, from what I remember. Despite Image's lateness, the company was brought up often in the magazine. Weren't there more Image covers than Valiant covers, anyway?

The thing you have to remember about Image was that it was a FORCE in the industry, a huge hurricane shaking up the status quo. Image was ALL the news in the Winter of 1991-1992, all anyone talked about. At the same time, Valiant was quietly publishing some GREAT stuff, and making it DAMN rare.

I'm not saying Wizard DIDN'T hype Image....and yes, there were several Image books in the Wizard top 10...but NONE of them stayed there anywhere near the year+ of Harb #1, Magnus #12, Solar #10. It's simply that there were far too MANY Image books in existence for them to be a back issue force to be reckoned with. The fans just weren't buying it, and rightly so....

If you don't believe that...how many of the HOTTEST Image books sold for more than $10, ever over 1992-1993? 3? 4?

How many of Valiant did...?

And that's not to discount Image's contribution to the industry; on the contrary, they sit it on its ear, doing what had never been done before, opening a LOT of doors for other independent publishers, and improving the rights and benefits of thousands of work for hire creators in the industry.

But create collectible comics, they did NOT.

Image came in with an explosion, fizzled to a whimper, and developed into a relatively diverse umbrella publisher, which has proven to be moderately succesful.

Valiant came in with a whisper, became a firestorm, and ended in ashes.

Totally different.

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:41 pm

DJSpecter wrote:
hmm, I thought that Bloodshot 1 was the first comic cover to feature a foil, and X-O 0 the first with a wrap-around.

(am I wrong?)

-Dave

Yes, Bloodshot was the first chromium cover (not first foil, though), but this was over a year and a half after the launches of Magnus and Solar, long after Unity. Still...in the Golden Age of Gimmicks (1991-1993), Marvel produced more gimmick covers in one year than Valiant did in its entire history.

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:45 pm

Knightt_333 wrote:Remember the cool cards that came in the Wizard ? I have them to this day... all Image characters to start then they changed a bit later, Dark Horse, DC, Marvel... but was there a single Valiant character on a card ? Nope...

Unless I'm totally high, Wizard #17 was an All Valiant, All the Time issue, with a gold and platinum version, with Valiant cards.

Am I totally high?

The Spider · Post by **The Spider** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:50 pm

That is true about how Valiants lasted longer on the Top 10 than Image... I remember WIZARD #50 listed the comics that stayed the longest on their Top 10 list.... I think there were MAGNUS #12, RAI #3 and/or 4, RAI #0, (I think SHADOWMAN #8 was there too, but I'm not very certain).

The only Image books that lasted as long were GEN 13 #1 (this one may have been a little longer than the other Valiant books) and I think SPAWN #4.

I'll have to dig out #50 and have a look.

greg · Post by **greg** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:51 pm

ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:Unless I'm totally high, Wizard #17 was an All Valiant, All the Time issue, with a gold and platinum version, with Valiant cards.

The cards in Wizard #17 were:
Santa The Barbarian - Rob Liefeld
McFarlane's Santa Todd
and
Jim Lee's Holly Daye

So, the cards were Image, Image, and Image.

The Spider · Post by **The Spider** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:52 pm

ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:
Knightt_333 wrote:Remember the cool cards that came in the Wizard ? I have them to this day... all Image characters to start then they changed a bit later, Dark Horse, DC, Marvel... but was there a single Valiant character on a card ? Nope...
Unless I'm totally high, Wizard #17 was an All Valiant, All the Time issue, with a gold and platinum version, with Valiant cards.

Am I totally high?

It had a Valiant cover, but I'm not certain about the cards... There were three variants: one bagged with a Santa card by Todd McFarlane, another bagged with a card by Rob Liefeld, and another bagged with a card by Jim Lee. They did have a gold and platinum version, though.

And I doubt the issue was ALL-Valiant though. Maybe half at most.

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:55 pm

greg wrote: The cards in Wizard #17 were:
Santa The Barbarian - Rob Liefeld
McFarlane's Santa Todd
and
Jim Lee's Holly Daye

So, the cards were Image, Image, and Image.

That's RIIIGHT! I totally forgot! Oh, how the horrors that were buried in the sands of time have been unearthed! ARGH!

DJSpecter · Post by **DJSpecter** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:56 pm

The difference between Chromium and foil being quite small (right?) I feel a bit cheated regard those big adds about Bloodshot #1 being the "world's first..." But whatever, I'm still glad it was the best high priced comic in that award thing, where Valiant was announced third largest publisher.

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:56 pm

The Spider wrote:And I doubt the issue was ALL-Valiant though. Maybe half at most.

That was a bit of a joke. Apparently, not a very good one.

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 12:03 am

The Spider wrote: The only Image books that lasted as long were GEN 13 #1 .

Gen13 #1 doesn't count in this discussion, as it was released after the honeymoon was LONGGGG over for Valiant and Wizard, almost three years after Magnus #1.

screamingdc · Post by **screamingdc** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 12:12 am

Knightt_333 wrote:Remember the cool cards that came in the Wizard ? I have them to this day... all Image characters to start then they changed a bit later, Dark Horse, DC, Marvel... but was there a single Valiant character on a card ? Nope...

i don't think Wizard ever made a special foil Valiant card. looking over my collection, there's a lot of Image (Brigade, Fairchild, Angela, Witchblade) with the other regulars thrown in, Superman/Batman, etc. Wizard did however, include a Valiant card in one issue that was essentially a preview of the Upper Deck set. i got the Harbinger #2 card.

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61 ... binger.jpg

The Spider · Post by **The Spider** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 10:16 am

ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:
The Spider wrote: The only Image books that lasted as long were GEN 13 #1 .
Gen13 #1 doesn't count in this discussion, as it was released after the honeymoon was LONGGGG over for Valiant and Wizard, almost three years after Magnus #1.

Under those circumstances, yeah. I brought it up because Greg brought up Prophet #4A, which got on the top 10 charts around the time of Gen 13 #1.