Discussion: The Valiant secondary market is...

depluto · Post by **depluto** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:27 am

Knightt, Bro J and I compiled most of this list, but we're still finding new stuff.

Angels of Destruction: 1
Battlezones: 1
Black September: 1, 1A, Preview
Break-Thru: 1, 1U, 2
Codename Firearm: 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
Collector’s Guide to the Ultraverse: 1
Conan: 4
Conan Savage: 4
Conan vs. Rune: 1
Countdown to Ultraverse: 1
Curse of Rune: 1, 1A, 2, 3, 4
Dream Team: 1
Eliminator: 0, 1, 1L, 2, 3
Elven: 0, 1, 1L, 2, 3, 4
Exiles: 1, 1U, 1SH, 1GH, 2, 3, 4
All-New Exiles: , A, B, 1, 1A, 1B, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11
Exiles vs. X-Men: 0, 0A signed
Firearm: 0, 1 ($1.95), 1PB ($2.50), 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18
Flood Relief: 1
Foxfire: 1, 1A, 1L, 2, 3, 4
Freex: 1, 1U, 1SH, 1GH, 1PB, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, GS
Freex/Mantra: Ash
Godwheel: 0, 1, 2, 3, 3A, TPB, Ash
Hardcase: 1, 1U, 1SH, 1GH, 2, 2PB, 3, 4 ($1.95), 4PB ($2.50), 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, Detroit Con Ash, Hero Ash, Hero AshL, Heroes World Ash
Hostile Takeover: Ash
Jumpstart Effect: Ash
Lord Pumpkin: 0, 0A
Malibu Signature Series: 1, 2
Malibu Sun: 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36
Mantra v1: 1, 1U, 1ULAE 1SH, 1GH, 1PB, 2 ($1.95), 2PB ($2.50), 3, 4, 5, 5A, 6, 7, 8, 8A, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 13A, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, GS
Mantra v2: , A, 1, 1A, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
Mantra Spear of Destiny: 1, 2
Mutants vs. Ultras: 1
NecroMantra: 1, 2, 3, 4, 4L
New World Order: Preview, Preview A
Nightman v1: 1, 1U, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, Annual
Nightman v2: , A, 1, 1A, 2, 3, 4
Nightman/Gambit: 1, 1A, 2, 3
Nightman vs. Wolverine: 0, 0A signed
Phoenix Resurrection: 0, 0L, 0A, Gen., Gen. L, Rev., Rev. L, Aft., Aft. L
Power of Prime: 1, 2, 3, 4
Prime v1: 1, 1U, 1SH, 1GH, 2, 2PB, 3, 4 ($1.95), 4A ($1.95), 4PB ($2.50), 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 13A, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, TPB, Hard-cover TPB, Annual, ½, Ash, Ash L Com Cav, Ash Capital City, Ash Sega CD
Prime v2: , A, 1, 1A, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15
Prime/Captain America: 1
Prime vs. Hulk: 0, 0A signed
Prototype: 0, 1, 1U, 1SH, 1GH, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, GS
Rafferty: Ash
Ripfire: 0
Rune v1: 0, 0 Spin, 1, 1U, 2, 3, 3U, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, GS, Ash, Ash L
Rune v2: , A, 1, 1A, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
Rune Hearts of Darkness: 1, 2, 3
Rune/Silver Surfer: 1, 1A, 1L
Rune vs. Venom: 1
Siren: , A, 1, 1A, 2, 3, Special
Sludge: 1, 1U, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, X-Mas
Solitaire: 1 ($1.95), 1U, 1PB ($2.50), 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12
Solution: 0, 1 ($1.95), 1U, 1PB ($2.50), 2, 3, 4, 5, 5A, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17
Strangers: 1, 1U, 1SH, 1GH, 2, 2PB, 3, 4 ($1.95), 4PB ($2.50), 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, TPB, Annual, Ash Diamond
Ultraforce v1: 0, 1 ($2.50), 1U, 1GH, 1PB ($2.95), 2, 2L, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, Ash, Ash 0A, Ash 0B
Ultraforce v2: , A, 1, 1A, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15
Ultraforce/Avengers: Prelude, UA1, AU1
Ultraforce/Spider-Man: 1A, 1B
Ultraverse Double Feature: 1
Ultraverse Future Shock: 1
Ultraverse Origins: 1, 1U, 1A, 1AU
Ultraverse Premiere: 0, 0U
Ultraverse Unlimited: 1, 2
Ultraverse Year One: 1
Ultraverse Year Two: 1
Ultra Monthly: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
Warstrike: 1, 1U, 1A, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
Witch Hunter: 1
Wrath: 1, 1U, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, GS
Year Zero: 1, 2, 3, 4

Guide: A=Alternate cover. B=Second alternate cover. U=Ultra 5000. L=Limited Edition. SH=Silver hologram. GH=Gold hologram. PB=Still in polybag. GS=Giant Size. Ash=Ashcan edition. TPB=Trade paperback.

SiBill · Post by **SiBill** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:31 am

Geez - me and my big mouth

Sorry, Depluto. Actually, I remember seeing in articles that several of the Ultraverse Gold holos were limited to 250 but all were numbered less than 1000. Forgottenuniverses.com lists them as "a scant few hundreds". I'll try to find more official corroboration than my fading memory. Their "validated signature series" (clones of Valiant?) were limited to 2000 usually. If I can get them for 3 bucks or less, I buy them.

Truth is - I am more drawn to this community than to the books. I would love to get a copy of every Valiant but not at the prices you guys are setting. I suspect most of you feel the same way - then you get drawn in by the peer pressure to participate in the bartering. BTW - I too made a killing on Valiant. I bought 3 long boxes of Pre- Unity Valiant in 1992 ( I believe) for about 50 cents each from a closing comic book store.

I had never really paid attention to Valiant until I bought those books. I was actually drawn to (what I thought was) a silly looking book called Solar 10. What the eff is this!!??? I read Solar 1 through 10 and became an addict

. I had just started working on Wall Street so it was like winning the lotto. I supplied the street sellers and they paid me after taking their 10%. I remember selling 10 copies of Harbinger 1 in about 2 minutes for 75 bucks each. We would put them out at lunchtime and there would be guys bidding up on the books - amazing!! I jumped ship after Bloodshot 1 . I realized the romance was over when people were going to the registers with 10 copies of B! in ther grubby little hands.

Everyone went to the stores to get Supes 75 (big black book) . Of course these were all sold out so they picked up the next hot book. Serendipity, anyone? So you see IMO Supes 75 was really not the death of Superman, but the death of the Valiant romantic era (at least for me). Which leaves me in a quandary. I have all the books I really want (pre-Unity) but would like the books I don't have (the gimmicks).

I get my fix from reading ZWH and the rest of the crew . BTW - where is Dawgphan? Dawg takes on everyone - including Greg. :littlesmile:

PS - ZWH - that story about KMart is a tad inaccurate. If you had bought KMART when it was a penny stock, you would be plum out of luck. You would have been buying subordinate debt (not senior debt) so it would have been worthless paper. By the time they re-orged and stocks with trinsic value was available to the public, it was over 20 bucks...

Trust me , when KMart was 3 bucks I wanted to drop 10,000 on it. I had just recievd a nice bonus. After research, I realized that the 10 K would be a nice tax write-off. Which is why it's dangerous to jump on Ford now. At 8 bucks you'd think - why not? Well, they might just file for bankruptcy, and common stocks usually (find a way to) become useless.

In a broad generic manner, the way it works is: creditors get first shot, then senior debt bond holders, then subordinate debt bond holders, then employees (401K, pensions etc), then prime stock holders , then.. Well I can go on forever before I mention common stock holders.

Basically you are a low class owner of the company who pays the debt off. You are not owed anything. You actually owe everybody else. Not to mention that the board will probably have pillaged the coffers long before. And then they find a miracilous way to re-org and re-issue (under the same name) with a new company with new owners (stock holders) that is protected from the prior company's debt.

Oh well - let's stick to comics

And don't get crazy with the details of what I wrote - in some cases creditors fall in after bondholders, and trust agents (who are supposed to represent the stockholders but needs to be paid first), and backup servicers (who could be bankers with no expertise), and LOC banks etc etc - but the bottom line is that common stock holders NEVER EVER see their money back.

Technique · Post by **Technique** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:35 am

SiBill wrote:...I too made a killing on Valiant. I bought 3 long boxes of Pre- Unity Valiant in 1992 ( I believe) for about 50 cents each from a closing comic book store.
...

How mismanaged would a store have to have been to close in 1992?

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 1:00 pm

SiBill wrote:Geez - me and my big mouth Sorry, Depluto. Actually, I remember seeing in articles that several of the Ultraverse Gold holos were limited to 250 but all were numbered less than 1000. Forgottenuniverses.com lists them as "a scant few hundreds". I'll try to find more official corroboration than my fading memory. Their "validated signature series" (clones of Valiant?) were limited to 2000 usually. If I can get them for 3 bucks or less, I buy them.

Truth is - I am more drawn to this community than to the books. I would love to get a copy of every Valiant but not at the prices you guys are setting. I suspect most of you feel the same way - then you get drawn in by the peer pressure to participate in the bartering.

Don't I know it! Trust me, I own junk I would NEVER have owned were it not for this gang of hooligans. Valiant Voice? Bleagh! VVSS? I HATE signed books! (well, unless I got them signed myself.

)

BTW - I too made a killing on Valiant. I bought 3 long boxes of Pre- Unity Valiant in 1992 ( I believe) for about 50 cents each from a closing comic book store.

There was such a small window in '92 before Valiant "took off."

I'm thinking basically the 3-4 months from May cover date to September cover date was the best time to get them "on the cheap." Before that time, the books were still fairly "new", and pre-Unity hadn't filled out yet.

I had never really paid attention to Valiant until I bought those books. I was actually drawn to (what I thought was) a silly looking book called Solar 10. What the eff is this!!??? I read Solar 1 through 10 and became an addict . I had just started working on Wall Street so it was like winning the lotto. I supplied the street sellers and they paid me after taking their 10%. I remember selling 10 copies of Harbinger 1 in about 2 minutes for 75 bucks each. We would put them out at lunchtime and there would be guys bidding up on the books - amazing!! I jumped ship after Bloodshot 1 . I realized the romance was over when people were going to the registers with 10 copies of B! in ther grubby little hands.

Everyone went to the stores to get Supes 75 (big black book) . Of course these were all sold out so they picked up the next hot book. Serendipity, anyone? So you see IMO Supes 75 was really not the death of Superman, but the death of the Valiant romantic era (at least for me). Which leaves me in a quandary. I have all the books I really want (pre-Unity) but would like the books I don't have (the gimmicks).

I get my fix from reading ZWH and the rest of the crew . BTW - where is Dawgphan? Dawg takes on everyone - including Greg. :littlesmile:

PS - ZWH - that story about KMart is a tad inaccurate. If you had bought KMART when it was a penny stock, you would be plum out of luck. You would have been buying subordinate debt (not senior debt) so it would have been worthless paper. By the time they re-orged and stocks with trinsic value was available to the public, it was over 20 bucks...

Hmmmmmm.....I'll have to check on this.

And don't get crazy with the details of what I wrote - in some cases creditors fall in after bondholders, and trust agents (who are supposed to represent the stockholders but needs to be paid first), and backup servicers (who could be bankers with no expertise), and LOC banks etc etc - but the bottom line is that common stock holders NEVER EVER see their money back.

Oh, I understand the pitfalls of Chapter 13 re-org.

But I'm not so sure about those who bought in the cents range getting nothing.

ckb · Post by **ckb** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:27 pm

He's right about the K-Mart stock as far as I know. Existing stockholders got nothing in the reorg.

Daniel Jackson · Post by **Daniel Jackson** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:44 pm

ckb wrote:He's right about the K-Mart stock as far as I know. Existing stockholders got nothing in the reorg.

Man, that just doesn't seem right.

SiBill · Post by **SiBill** » Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:30 am

There is no concept of right or wrong on Wall Street and big business. Only profits. :littlesmile:

BTW - I asked Tom Mason to give me his recollection of the Ultraverse Holograms. Here is his reply:

"Good question! I know Prototype, Mantra and Exiles had gold holo covers because I've seen them. A lot of the books didn't -- Freex didn't, for example. It was just a silver holo. And I don't think Prime, Hardcase or Strangers did either (they were the first month's books and we had already printed them as Silver holos when the printer said he had the technology to do both Silver and Gold). That's why Mantra (which was a second month book) got both silver and gold. I believe we stopped the program right around the time of Freex because it was cost-prohibitive and we had yet to figure out a plan to recoup the costs and distribute the books to make them seem valuable and desirable. Print runs were very low -- I know the foil Ultra Limiteds were at 5000; my memory of the holos is that they were well under 500 for each.."

end quote

Now, to complicate this, forgottenuniverses.com has pics of Freex and Prime Gold. In the FU.com

editorial, he says that someone gave them to him but he was not aware of the 2 golds before he got them. I suspect those were probably printed by the printer as prototypes and were declined by Malibu - but a few got out. I suspect that was also the case with the Ultraverse premiere Ultra Limited - which just recently surfaced from one lone seller. I have not personally seen any Prime nor Freex Golds but I am hoping to fine one some day. Perhaps depluto can show us pics of his copies :littlesmile:

But I digress.....

depluto · Post by **depluto** » Mon Feb 13, 2006 11:22 am

I got my Freex gold off Mile High; the Prime came in an ebay auction that closed with no bids. I emailed the guy and offered $5 and he said OK.

If you look close enough you can see them in this pic:

Big Tel has a picture of a Hard Case gold on his site:

I've never seen a Strangers gold but I imagine it exists if all the others do.

greg · Post by **greg** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:31 pm

People often mention that "only a small group of people" are the driving
force behind the prices paid on the secondary market for Valiant...
but is this uncommon?

For example, watching Antiques Roadshow, appraisals in the hundreds
or thousands of dollars for obscure items that can't possibly be collected
by more than a handful of individuals are extremely common.

The fact that few are available on the market, and someone is interested
is really all that matters.
If plenty were available, then the price might drop significantly.
If no one was interested, it wouldn't matter if there were only one in existence,
or one hundred thousand.
Any secondary market item follows these basic concepts...
comics, coins, lamps, stamps, bats, hats.

So, if you find yourself in a very small group of people who collect a certain thing...
congratulations, you're unique... just like everyone else.

depluto · Post by **depluto** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 2:53 pm

If those obscure items are actually the rarest part of a particular collection, then only the top dogs will get them ... kind of like with books such as Bloodshot Platinum.

When I think of the relatively small Valiant market, I'm comparing it in my head to the number of people who collect books like Spidey, FF and so on. The small number of us just leads to a little volatility, I guess.

The thing I'm not as comfortable with is that there are Valiant collectors who will pay a certain price for certain books, guaranteeing a floor for any sales. This isn't uncommon with collectibles, but I think the floor is too high sometimes. Without that "floor value" held in place by a few collectors, those books would sell for less. Right or wrong, it feels like market manipulation to me.

All just my opinion, of course.

putz · Post by **putz** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 8:45 pm

Right or wrong, it feels like market manipulation to me.

It feels that way because it is. It's not to get others to buy it from them high (think Enron), but to keep people from buying it lower. The reason they do it is to make sure they keep the price high enough to have the ones they've already purchased keep their "value".
If they have 10 of a comic, and they paid $20 each for it. And one comes on ebay, they will make sure it goes for at least $20 so theirs wont lose value.
This is one result of posting the recent e-bay prices of the comics on this site.
The data can be used for checking how much the comic is "worth", but also how much to bid to make sure your's doesnt lose its "value".
What they are hoping for is that Valiant comes back and the new books sparks intrest in the old ones and therefore people will want the old books so they'll buy them. But, while this is good for them, what I hope they'll realize is that in the meantime, they are keeping the prices artificially high against each other in that they could get them at a lower price if they let the prices fall. Then they could make more ROI if/when the Valiants ( as in characters) come back. If Valiant doesnt come back, then they wouldnt have lost as much when they sell them 3 for $5 or something like that.
Now some people may say "I'll never sell them for that". Well thats fine and dandy.
Think of it this way, did you ever go into a comic shop and see books
that are still cover price and wonder "WTH is this guy thinking trying to selll these for cover? No-one reads these anymore". It'll be the same way.
It basically comes down to people buying them at minimum price to keep their value and hope they come back in popularity so the people can sell them.
Cant blame them, but in doing so, the other people that help keep the Valiants "alive" by discussing , reading, etc about them will not be able to get copies of their own without having to pay what those first guys paid.
I personally think that if more copies got out, then more people would read them, hence be more intrested in them, hence buy the other books.

Rant over.

Man, thats more words than I've said all week.

putz · Post by **putz** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 8:48 pm

Maybe I should've broken that up to get more posts.
I need to take that posting class.

GGSAE · Post by **GGSAE** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 10:32 pm

putz wrote:Maybe I should've broken that up to get more posts.
I need to take that posting class.

Most books certain collectors have celings for are variants (or available through tpb), that wouldn't hinder potential buyers from enjoying valiants.

Zero · Post by **Zero** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 10:50 pm

What if the books are just worth a certain price to me regardless of how many copies I have? Am I artificially holding the price up to keep my collection worth something or am I just buying the books because I think they're worth at least X amount to me?

Daniel Jackson · Post by **Daniel Jackson** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:08 pm

Erskine71 wrote:What if the books are just worth a certain price to me regardless of how many copies I have? Am I artificially holding the price up to keep my collection worth something or am I just buying the books because I think they're worth at least X amount to me?

Probably a little of both.

depluto · Post by **depluto** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:33 pm

Erskine71 wrote:What if the books are just worth a certain price to me regardless of how many copies I have? Am I artificially holding the price up to keep my collection worth something or am I just buying the books because I think they're worth at least X amount to me?

I don't think there is anything wrong with that. I buy pre-Unity comics whenever I see them if they are $3 or less.

One of the unusual aspects of Valiants is that you see some issues go for big coin on Ebay, then you can still occasionally find them in quarter bins at a LCS (I've found three Chaos Effect Golds in quarter bins, but you won't ever see a Spidey 300 in there!).

I could finish off my run whenever I want, but I'm stubborn about trying to put it together relatively cheap.

Zero · Post by **Zero** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:22 am

depluto wrote:
Erskine71 wrote:What if the books are just worth a certain price to me regardless of how many copies I have? Am I artificially holding the price up to keep my collection worth something or am I just buying the books because I think they're worth at least X amount to me?
I don't think there is anything wrong with that. I buy pre-Unity comics whenever I see them if they are $3 or less.

One of the unusual aspects of Valiants is that you see some issues go for big coin on Ebay, then you can still occasionally find them in quarter bins at a LCS (I've found three Chaos Effect Golds in quarter bins, but you won't ever see a Spidey 300 in there!).

I could finish off my run whenever I want, but I'm stubborn about trying to put it together relatively cheap.

Understandable. If there's any consolation to you, I am not winning these auctions. The prices where I would start buying these books I already have again are far lower than where they currently trade for. What I meant is that there is a level I wouldn't let certain books fall below. Unity 0 red, for example, will never be a $3.00 book. There's a level above that where I would buy as many copies as the market sells. I don't think it's me protecting my investment so much as me feeling the book is simply worth a certain figure...

GJB · Post by **GJB** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:23 am

depluto wrote: I don't think there is anything wrong with that. I buy pre-Unity comics whenever I see them if they are $3 or less.

One of the unusual aspects of Valiants is that you see some issues go for big coin on Ebay, then you can still occasionally find them in quarter bins at a LCS (I've found three Chaos Effect Golds in quarter bins, but you won't ever see a Spidey 300 in there!).

I could finish off my run whenever I want, but I'm stubborn about trying to put it together relatively cheap.

I couldn't agree with you more, depluto. It's as though I wrote this post. Sometimes you can get caught up in a bidding war on ebay when in reality, if you are patient, you will find a better deal if you keep looking. I found two Unity reds for under $25 a piece around the time I was trying to buy one for $65 on ebay. For me, that's where the stubborn and cheap comes into play. Although sometimes I need te be reminded. And $3 is my price point for pre-unity issues also, however, if they are in true NM/M condition, I'm willing to pay a little more. There's something intoxicating about pre-unity Valiants with no stress marks on the spine and sharp corners. It's crazy.

x-omatic · Post by **x-omatic** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:32 pm

depluto wrote: The thing I'm not as comfortable with is that there are Valiant collectors who will pay a certain price for certain books, guaranteeing a floor for any sales. This isn't uncommon with collectibles, but I think the floor is too high sometimes. Without that "floor value" held in place by a few collectors, those books would sell for less. Right or wrong, it feels like market manipulation to me.

All just my opinion, of course.

I have to disagree with you on this. Every collector has a buying price period. Many on this site know of my eBay buying habits and how I have a few extra copies of some books. But just because I will buy every CEAR I find at 25.00 doesn't mean I am manipulating the market.

It is no different than putting in a buy order for a stock if it drops below a certain price. All it means is that the buyer values the item at x amount or above so they are willing to pay x amount.

Most collectors buying like this do so as an investment and will sell their extras copies for a profit some day. Whether that is in a week, a year, 5 years or 50.

I use esnipe for all of eBay buying. When I see a Unity Red on eBay I will put in a snipe of at least $20.00. If I win I got a great deal. If not, no big deal. Fact is, 90% of the time my bids never get placed because others are willing to pay more.

Also, my "always buy" prices are not set in stone. As the market changes adjustments to my buy price have occured. Some have gone up and some have gone down.

depluto · Post by **depluto** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:00 pm

x-omatic wrote:Most collectors buying like this do so as an investment and will sell their extras copies for a profit some day. Whether that is in a week, a year, 5 years or 50.

And that's a good thing ... the investment angle is part of what makes this fun.

I really am OK with all the different attitudes toward collecting/investing here; it's not my place to judge anyway and we all have different opinions. Setting a floor on when you will buy Valiants is a little different from setting a floor for when you will buy/sell stocks, especially since the Valiant market is an oligopsony. Anybody planning on selling these for a profit is taking a risk; we'll see how it pans out.

I got all over one of my friends for continuing to invest heavily in real estate last year. I was being cautious since the housing boom doesn't make sense to me at this point. He made a wad of money. Shows what I know.

I remember a couple of years ago somebody on ebay was putting some Unity TPBs up, then seemed to be shill bidding the price very high. He did this several times, I guess to try and move the price up higher for when he sold them for real.