What makes a good reboot/retcon

[cjv]

I was thinking with all this relaunch talk, what makesa good retcon or reboot.

If we retcon the bad stuff away, saying it was a dream, VR induced illusion, coma, frozen hallucination, etc would fall pretty short, IMO. What do you think would be a good retcon (keeping in mind that some of us might not think ANY retcon is good).

Same thing with a reboot. What would be a good storyline to start that? Would you want to simply start the stories over, retelling the origins and such? Would you want to wipe out the VH1 universe and start fresh without any of the burden of "history"? They are both reboot, but different from each other. So what do you think is a good way to do a reboot?

I am talking generally here, although you can specify the ideas to the Valiant universe.

I think one of the easiest ways in the Valiant Universe to start over (whether it is a retcon or reboot) is because of Solar's incredible power. His abilities make it possible to "redo" the entire universe (since he already did it once after Alpha and Omega). You could have something involving him with a retcon, where the universe "restarts" after Unity or something. Alternatively, you could have him involved in a reboot, starting over from the beginning.

I still like the idea of having a Unity-type event where the bad guys (Pierce) succeed, only things don't work out the way she planned. Unity is so well known for Valiant, people would recognize it right away. Additionally, it would give something you don't see too often - the bad guy wins, the good guys lose. Lastly, it would give the new universe a clean slate (which I like). Lastly, it could provide an impetus for "Solar" to give up his costumed identity, while still staying in the universe (thus negating the "Solar" character which Valiant doesn't have the rights to, while keeping Phil Seleski as a pivotal character in the universe).

Chris

[Heath]

How's this for a reboot/recton idea? Turns out that everything in the original Valiant universe was just Aric's dreams as revealed in XO #68. Solar (or Phil Seleski) has been bouncing from universe to alternate universe and causing nothing but problems in each one. The universe and laws of physics and time and space as we know it, can not hold Solar/Phil - even the ones he builds himself. Now, in the universe of XO #68, the attack on the Spider-Alien ship that is holding Aric is actually that universe unraveling because of Solar/Phil. As yet another universe crumbles around him, Solar/Phil encounters Aric. He somehow see's the world that Mallik had created for Aric. Taking inspiration from that, Solar/Phil creates a new universe - one where the laws of physics and time and space are only slightly different from ours. Just different enough to allow people like Harbingers, Geomancers, immortal warriors, nanite enhanced hitmen, voodoo vigilantes, sentient machines - and someone with the power of a god - to exist.

This could even lead to the first big major event. A "Unity" like event where the strands of this new Valiant universe are starting to unravel and our heroes don't like it much.

Any thoughts? I'm not suggesting that's what I want to see, but it was an idea that just struck me after reading cjv's post so I thought I would toss it out there.

[Vault-Keeper]

QUICK! Hide this thread before MOTA finds it!

[magnusr]

What do you think would be a good retcon

Only good retcon would preserve all established continuity, and only reinterpret it. Any sweeping retcon over the whole universe would unavoidably be bad. Some minor retcons here and there could work. Obviosly something was a dream at the end of X-O. Maybe he's still held prisoner.

Same thing with a reboot.

Not too different. Maybe a new universe branching out at some well chosen moment. Your new end to Unity could be one way. Or maybe on the contrary explore that reality that "old Gilad" remembered. The one where Unity had been won easily. Either way pre-unity stays

/Magnus

[Daniel Jackson]

What do you think would be a good retcon

Only good retcon would preserve all established continuity, and only reinterpret it. Any sweeping retcon over the whole universe would unavoidably be bad. Some minor retcons here and there could work. Obviosly something was a dream at the end of X-O. Maybe he's still held prisoner.



/Magnus

The writers wore out the "is it a dream or not " routine for me. The way they kept going and going with it was tiresome and frustrating. Flushing the whole awful mess and just forgetting about it seems to be the only solution IMO.

[Ben(inabox)]

Granted two wrongs don't make a right, but...
What if just X-O #68 was a dream? In the event of a relaunch it could be a way out... (and also how I interpret it anyway...)

[Byrneout]

How about this...

The end run of Magnus saw Magnus "lost in time". Where?

What if Magnus' trip caused him to go back to one of the key points in the Valiant universe, and by being there, change it? Or even destroy the original timeline from Unity onward, forcing time to "rebuild" itself from that point?

Rough thoughts only.

[Heath]

Nobody has any comments on my idea?

Granted two wrongs don't make a right, but...
What if just X-O #68 was a dream? In the event of a relaunch it could be a way out... (and also how I interpret it anyway...)

That's kind of what I was thinking. I think XO #68 provides the perfect transition to the new Valiant universe. We get to start all over AND everything published before 1996 is part of the story (in a way). The original Valiant universe has already been "rebooted" in XO #68. The relaunch can just continue from there. This could actually turn Aric into an even more important figure in this universe because he already has knowledge and insight of the "future" that no other character would have. What would he do with that knowledge? How would that change the paths of the other characters?

MotA should be happy because nothing from the original Valiant universe is invalidated that wasn't already invalidated by the original Valiant universe itself (ie XO #68). A return to the pre-Unity type Valiant can be achieved without having to do yet another retcon or reboot since it's already been done for us.

The writers wore out the "is it a dream or not " routine for me.

I feel your pain. But we don't have to use the "it's a dream/virtual reality" plot device to cancel out another "it's a dream" plot device. Aric woke up. That's where we pick up the story. Now what?

[The Mighty Drew]

Here's a question...

Can a relaunch / reboot / retcon of the VALIANT Universe work WITHOUT Magnus, Solar, and Turok?

Since we know these properties are owned by Random House, what if the current owners of the Valiant characters could not liscense them? Should they attempt to rebuild the universe without them?

[Heath]

I think it could work. But it just wouldn't be the same without them.

I think Solar is the most important, but they could have Phil shed the costume and just be Phil and get by like that. If they can't get Solar, and they can't work around it by doing something like that, I think the relaunch ends there.

I don't see how they could work around Magnus's absence. Even if they used his son as the main character, all the supporting cast, and even the concepts of the world of 4000 AD would be gone too. We could still have Rai. But that's like eating a sandwitch without the bread. Perhaps it's still tasty, but it's still missing a very important ingredient.

I think we could easilly do without Turok, however. Interesting character, sure. And I'd love to see him in the new Valiant. But I don't see him as being integral to the Valiant universe the same way Solar and Magnus are.

I think they could relaunch without those three, but only as a worst case scenario. Use "Phil" instead of Solar and tell no stories in 4000 AD or in the Lost Land. But what's the fun in that?

[The Mighty Drew]

I had similar thoughts. I thought a good idea would be to set up the new stories with a vague reference to the missing aspects. This way, they could be added later if they managed to recieve the rights.

For example, when NOW comics launched their Green Hornet title, the first two or three issues were origin issues. An important part of the Green Hornet's history is that he is descended from the Lone Ranger. (Grand-nephew, I believe.) Unfortunately, NOW did not have the rights to use the Lone Ranger, as he is owned by another company altogether.

The writers of Green Hornet made it work. They referred to the first masked hero in the Reid family, without needing to give specific details. They even had a painting over the fireplace of a masked man on a horse. And while he didn't look like the traditional image of the Lone Ranger (full face mask instead of a domino mask), most fans knew exactly who it was.

The point is, in a relaunch, they could refer to "Phil" going off into space for a time. Aric could refer to his "warrior brother" or whatever returning to the Lost Land, the entrance to which has disappeared. 4000 AD is far enough removed that we could just not see it for a little while. These things could all be explained later if the rights ever returned. Probably in a huge crossover event.

[magnusr]

What if just X-O #68 was a dream? In the event of a relaunch it could be a way out... (and also how I interpret it anyway...)

Yeah, that's what I meant. I'm not fond of "it was a dream", but since X-O had contradictions, something has to be, and issue 68 should be done away with. Anyway, in summary, I do not see any good retcon. A mild reboot seems better, especially if pre-unity is kept.

/Magnus

[magnusr]

What if Magnus' trip caused him to go back to one of the key points in the VALIANT universe, and by being there, change it? Or even destroy the original timeline from Unity onward, forcing time to "rebuild" itself from that point?

That's a good reboot. Especially as it would make Magnus' lost tale one of the first stories!

/Magnus

[magnusr]

I think they could relaunch without those three, but only as a worst case scenario. Use "Phil" instead of Solar and tell no stories in 4000 AD or in the Lost Land. But what's the fun in that?

It sure would be better with them. I agree on everything in your analysis.

/Magnus

[leonmallett]

This is such a potentially complex and complicated issue - except for anyone with strongly held views of the 'right' way to go, but no sides seem to have been drawn that way yet on this thread.
These boards are attended by fans of VALIANT (myself included) - a dedicated few.
The issue is one of what we (as fans) want against what would be marketable and accessible as a 'new' venture in publishing. To expect every potential new reader to know understand the past continuity is unrealistic, otherwise the fan-base is restricted to those with access to the already published books.
So the issue is one of history or back-story. Origin stories or explanations seem to be the traditional model for relaunched characters - very few launch in media res. To grab new readers the charcters may have to appear 'new'. X-Men, Spiderman, Superman and Batman get sales bumps from liscenced stuff (films, TV, etc). Thats why they can sustain a lot of books. It transfers to other books they appear in. Other books benefit from a historical legacy from being around for a long time, but there have been obvious criticisms around those weighed down by historical continuity. How many major, high-profile, long-standing concepts from the big two have not been relaunched (a quick list of some that have - LoSH (x4 or 5 ish), Teen Titans, JLA (x2), Avengers (x2), GL (x2), Flash (x2), Wonder Woman (x2), Captain America, JSA (x4), and so on)? Each relaunch highlights or redefines the character(s). But each time it is a new starting point. So if we accept the past for a VALIANT relaunch would that be a hindrance? To do so with arbitrary cut-offs (Unity, CE etc) could add to confusion for new readers (ouside of VALIANT fans/past readers who really knows about any of these events - comic lore isn't taught in many schools is it?). If we want the charcters we had in new adventures do we accept that there are 10 or so missing years (necessary if we want the real-time thing)? What about the Gold Key 3 (has GK3 been suggested yet for Solar, Magnus and Turok?)? As I said complex. I want to see the characters in great stories with great art. If that means a reboot or retcon so be it - so long as it is well-done. How often does that happen? I'm hopeful and a little afraid.

[cjv]

What do you think would be a good retcon

Only good retcon would preserve all established continuity, and only reinterpret it. Any sweeping retcon over the whole universe would unavoidably be bad. Some minor retcons here and there could work. Obviosly something was a dream at the end of X-O. Maybe he's still held prisoner.

Same thing with a reboot.

Not too different. Maybe a new universe branching out at some well chosen moment. Your new end to Unity could be one way. Or maybe on the contrary explore that reality that "old Gilad" remembered. The one where Unity had been won easily. Either way pre-unity stays

/Magnus

I didn't mean to rewrite Unity with a new ending, I meant a Unity "like" event where the bad guys win. I chose Pierce as the "villian" because she has the power to pull it off.

Chris

[Heath]

The issue is one of what we (as fans) want against what would be marketable and accessible as a 'new' venture in publishing. To expect every potential new reader to know understand the past continuity is unrealistic, otherwise the fan-base is restricted to those with access to the already published books.

This is why I think using XO #68 as the springboard for the relaunch makes perfect sense to me. There's the familiarity with the characters and stories that us long time fans have. But, it creates the perfect starting point for new readers.

And it's not a new retcon or reboot - it's a continuation of the retcon/reboot already appearing in the original VH1 context 10 years ago. The perfect opportunity to get back to pre-Unity basic concepts without the clutter of bad continuity and concepts of the later issues.

And, it's a chance to turn one of the biggest mistakes of VH1 into something that's actualy useful.

Good points, leonmallett.

[ian_house]

I've been wondering over this for quite a while myself and believe that a crossover event would be the only credible way of getting everything straight. In a similar way to DC destroying it's previous multiverses and recreating one Earth (with Crisis on Infinite Earths and the current Infinite Crisis). This would also be keeping to the traditional Valiant style of the masive crossover which was done so well with Unity. I feel that this wouldn't hurt fans of the previous Valiant characters and would also allow for new fans to get involved as they would be introduced to the characters and the clean slates created for them. In my opinion a relaunch of Valiant without pulling in ALOT of new readers will just crash and burn...

[leonmallett]

The issue is one of what we (as fans) want against what would be marketable and accessible as a 'new' venture in publishing. To expect every potential new reader to know understand the past continuity is unrealistic, otherwise the fan-base is restricted to those with access to the already published books.

This is why I think using XO #68 as the springboard for the relaunch makes perfect sense to me. There's the familiarity with the characters and stories that us long time fans have. But, it creates the perfect starting point for new readers.

And it's not a new retcon or reboot - it's a continuation of the retcon/reboot already appearing in the original VH1 context 10 years ago. The perfect opportunity to get back to pre-Unity basic concepts without the clutter of bad continuity and concepts of the later issues.

And, it's a chance to turn one of the biggest mistakes of VH1 into something that's actualy useful.

Good points, leonmallett.

The tight continuity/real-time things IS something I love about the books (despite reading them over 10 years after the fact!) - but accounting for that could be hard. an entire line set in 1996 is not going to work. And then incorporating the death of Shadowman in 1999. my head is starting to hurt. But agree that Xo 68 could easily be undone, just as easily as it supposedly undid the VH 1 universe.

[slym2none]

*EDIT*



-slym (don't ask, just know that posts here can't be deleted)

[leonmallett]

*EDIT*



-slym (don't ask, just know that posts here can't be deleted)

"Don't ask"...is like asking people to ask!

[dave]

what if aric's dream was actually induced by erica at the end of unity-she won but to keep the good guys in line she put them into stasis fields...this could explain what happened to th gold key crowd (where are they?) aric could wake up and discover all of this, adn then go in search of them...this could lead to a natural progression of the new titles...he finds gilad, and the new book comes out...

[ManofTheAtom]

Let's try to look at this from a new reader vs old reader perspective.

Picking up after Unity vs Picking up 10 years after the end (aka X-O Manowar #68), one title at a time.

Magnus Robot Fighter #15 vs Magnus Robot Fighter #64

When last we saw Magnus in issue 15 he was fighting the freewill robot Talpa, who had just escaped from within the Earth's core and was terrorizing a group of scientist where Mothergod's Edgewater Milespire used to be, when then Rai, Gilad, and Rookie landed their ship on top of Talpa and buried him within the Earth.

Upon returning from Unity, Magnus picked up his fight with Talpa where it left off in issue #15.

In other words, Post Unity Magnus was in the middle of a story.

When last we saw Magnus in issue 64 he had been thrown across time by the Destroyer, the Malevs had been destroyed, and North Am was on the verge of being rebuilt by his son Torque.

Final Analysis:

A follow up to Magnus #64 lends itself better as a way to attract new readers with an introductory story that sets up Magnus' world without being a total reboot, while any follow up to Magnus #15 would requiere a new replacement story to solve the Talpa plot.

Winner: Magnus #64

Solar #11 vs Solar #60

When last we saw Solar in issue 11 in 1992, he had been attacked by a group of Eggbreakers lead by Gilad. Once that was resolved he and Geoff went to Erica Pierce's home and discovered that she had killed her husband and had been killed herself, which lead them to the Lost Land and Unity.

Upon returning from Unity in 1992 , he met up with Gayle and explained where he'd been to her, then days later he met Fred Bender, the man who'd become Doctor Eclipse.

When last we saw Solar in issue 60, he had merged with a sun in another solar system in order to save a second planet Earth that he had created by messing around with that world's history.

Final Analysis:

While Solar's follow up to Unity is a set up to a new story, the problem with it is that it's squarely set in 1992. A possible solution would be to have the scenes with Gayle take place back then and then jump forward to the present.

With Solar #60, however, we have a more clear break off point in which it can be said that Solar spent a decade merged with the sun and is only recently coming out, which would lead to new stories with a clear beginning.

Winner: Possible tie.

Harbinger #8 vs Visitor #13

When last we saw the Harbinger kids in issue 8 they were in Dr Hayward's house some time after Torque's funeral in 1992 when they were recruited by Geoff to follow him to the Lost Land. At that time Kris was pregnant with the baby that would become Magnus.

Upon returning from Unity in 1992, the kids had their first encounter with the HARD Corps.

When last we saw Pete Stanchek and Flamingo in Visitor #13 they had reunited to fight Harada shortly following the Visitor's death after years of not seeing each other, time in which Harada had brainwashed Pete into serving him as the enforced known as the Harbinger.

Final Analysis:

Similar to Solar, the Harbinger follow up to Unity served as set up for the new status quo, not so much of a cliffhanger, but it also suffers from the fact that it's set in 1992, 14 years ago.

Like Solar their return could be done back then and the story could then skip to the present, but would that really help to bring in new readers?

With Visitor #13 we have a more clean-cut new beginning. We have Pete, Flamingo and others coming together to form a new Harbinger resistance, meaning that any opening stories done following that status quo, by design, would need to reintroduce the conflict to new readers.

Winner: Visitor #13

X-O Manowar #8 vs X-O Manowar #68

As Unity came to a close, Aric imagined himself with the X-O armor during Roman times and as result of Solar's energies taking him back to where he imagined himself he was sent back through time to 410 A.D.

Discovering that "you can't go home again", Aric buried himself beneath the Earth where Ken could find him in 1992.

When last we saw Aric in issue #68 he had been told that all his experiences upon escaping the Spider-Alien's ship in 1991 had been a dream, and that if he wanted it back he had to fight his way out of the ship again.

Final Analysis:

This is an interesting case in which X-O Manowar could pick up from either after Unity or after issue 68.

If it picked up after Unity it could do so with a reprint of the Roman story and then Aric could bury himself under the Earth like before, but instead of being discovered in 1992 he could be discovered in the present.

With X-O Manowar #68, any resolution could be confusing for new readers.

Winner: X-O Manowar #8

Rai #6 vs Magnus Robot Fighter #60-#64

During Unity Mothergod caused the city of Japan to crash on Earth. Following Unity we witnessed how the survivors managed to escape.

In his latter days, Japan became a different type of empire, while the last Rai became a sort of Kane-type character, wandering the Earth looking for a purpose.

Final Analys:

The destruction of Japan demands a clear resolution, as do many plot points established in the first five issues of the series, like the fate of Rai's wife and her XO Commando armor for example.

Magnus #60-#64 establish Rai's new path, one without any links to the far past that set up a new beginning for him, specially in light of further developments in the series as described above.

Winner: Magnus #60-#64

Shadowman #4 vs Shadowman #43

When last we saw Jack prior to Unity in 1992, he was taken to an entrance to the Lost Land located beneath a tree by Mamma Nettie and a friend of his, who were there waiting for him when he returned.

For Jack his experiences in the Lost Land changed his outlook on life, as he fell in love and met Elya, a woman from the 41st century who revealed to him that he was destined to die in 1999.

That revelation set up the events of Shadowman #43, in which to test whether he was master of his fate or not Jack leaped off a building onto the street to see if he could decide when to end his life.

Final Analys:

In the end this is a moot point as it's close to 2007 and Jack Boniface died, as profesized, ridding the world of the Darque Power in 1999.

Winner: Moot

Eternal Warrior #1 vs Eternal Warrior #50/Fist & Steel #2

When last we saw Gilad in 1992, he was in a motel room with Jillian Alcott being shot at by unknown assailants, when then he was whisked away by Geoff to join the Unity task force.

Upon his return to 1992, Gilad was transported back to the motel room just in time to save Jillian.

When last we saw Gilad in issue 50, his story had come to a close, he was in the company of a woman, and there were no lingering plot holes left to resolve. All in all this was the cleanest final issue of the lot.

The follow up, the Fist & Steel mini series, was self contained and didn't leave anything to be resolved.

Final Analys:

Like Solar and Harbinger before it, Eternal Warrior suffers from the problem of being set in 1992, while like Magnus it also suffers from the problem of being in the middle of a story that requieres a resolution.

In contrast, both Eternal Warrior #50 and Fist & Steel #2 leave things fresh enough that it can be picked up 10 years later without missing a beat, and as an added bonus, Gilad doesn't age...

Winner: Eternal Warrior #50/Fist & Steel #2

Archer & Armstrong #1 vs Turok #27

When last we saw the not-so-dynamic duo in 1992, they were about to be charbroiled by Mahmud, when then they were whisked away to the Lost Land by Gilad. Upon their return they picked up from where they left off (despite Aram's desire to go to Florida instead).

In Turok, we saw that Archer (who along with Aram had been taken to the Lost Land by a faux-Shadowman clone) had become a sort of religious leader for a native tribe.

Final Analys:

This one's tough, as while it suffers from the ailments as Solar, Harbinger, Magnus, and Eternal Warrior, the alternative is even more confusing.

Of course, thanks to Rai #0 we know that Archer & Armstrong were back on Earth by the end of 99, so as far as today's concerned what happened in the Lost Land stays in the Lost Land, meaning that it has no bearing whatsoever on what the two of them are doing today.

Winner: Turok #27 but only because of Rai #0.

In the end...

Picking up from where Unity left off isn't a real alternative for the reasons stated above, while picking up 10 years after the last published book (or in fact, eight years later after Jack's death) is more fisible (sp?).

As far as other concepts and characters are concerned, I won't cover them here as for the exception of HARD Corps and Bloodshot none of them have anything that connects to Unity or its aftermath.

[cjv]

Personally, I don't like the idea of starting after Unity.

Chris

[ManofTheAtom]

Personally, I don't like the idea of starting after Unity.

Chris

Neither do I, and the idea of a reboot is even worse. It's too DC/Marvel.

We live in the 21st Century, about 50 years removed from the days when mothers would throw out their kids comic books and old stories had to be retold for them to be read.

Today we have reprints, back issue bins, and online scans. If a publisher wants new people to read an old story all they have to do is reprint it.

That's been my stand for the last 10 years on anything from Marvel and DC, and it shouldn't be any different for VALIANT.

We don't need Busiek, Waid, Morrison, Bendis, Johns, or any other new name writer to redo Steel Nation, Alpha & Omega, or tell a completely new and different origin for the characters when the original VALIANTs work.

Just look at what iBooks did with Magnus.

"Yay, we got Steranko to do a new design!" didn't mean much when the story was crap.