Continuation of Bob Layton comments on Valiant/Nintendo/WWF

[DawgPhan]

Anyway, one other thing that Massarsky said was "Jim Shooter can't sit through an interview, even today, 12 years later, without ranting about how I stole his company. It's been 12 years since he was fired, hasn't anything interesting happened since?"

-Dave

Good Lord. The man couldn't be dense enough to really believe that could he? He ousted Shooter from a company he co-founded that became worth tens of millions of dollars and which also became the fourth largest company in its entire industry. "Hasn't anything interesting happened since?" Sheesh.

Yeah I think that DJ and Steve are the only 2 people on this planet that would say those things..Honestly I think that one of the very few things that EVERYONE on this board could agree about would be how bad steve is....So DJ do you live next door to Steve or something? Family friend? You gotta know that he appears as the bag guy, wait not just bad umm horrible terrible blood sucking scumbag, in this whole valiant deal....

I hope that his ex took him to the cleaners the way that he took valiant...go for her..

[whetteon]

Kind of like firing Steve Jobs from apple the first time around and asking him a decade later if he's done anything interesting since revolutionalizing the computer industry. Why doesn't Shooter just create multi-million dollar companies every other week?

[wrunow]

As we all know there are always 2 or more sides to every story, obviously JS had an emotional attachment to the company (as any creator would), and Steve was there to make money, as much as possible in as little time as possible. Those opposing goals usually create enemies in almost all situations as times go on.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Perspective to keep in mind:

Jim Shooter became, in 1978, editor in chief of the largest comic book publisher in the world, at the ripe old age of TWENTY SIX. GRANTED, he had Archie, Virginia Romita, and Walt and Louise Simonson to help him out TREMENDOUSLY...but the ball was in his court.

1978 was a bad year for comics, coming off the DC implosion in 77. Shooter took the company and brought it screaming into the 80's, capitalizing on the tremendous success of X-Men, introducing the graphic novel, 'new format' printing, and the limited series during his tenure.

Widely acknowledged as the greatest editorial decision of his career, he insisted that Dark Phoenix be killed off, making X-Men #137 the highest selling book of 1980, and helping make X-Men a household word.

All of this while in his 20's and early 30's.

But he never *quite* got what he wanted. New Universe, as you all know by now, was his 'first attempt' at Valiant, and it went down in FLAMES...and was likely the cause of his termination in the middle of 1987.

So...when Valiant itself came about....he'd already had a career in the field that would rival anyone, but he'd never *really* gotten the chance to RUN his OWN company...he had a lot of freedom at Marvel, but ultimately, you all know who he answered to (the board of directors.) So, he got the opportunity to do what he wanted, with his very own company, at last!

And he was only 38.

Of course, he traded one set of suits (Goodman, Hobson, etc.) for another...Massarsky. He didn't know it at the time, but that's exactly what happened...

And...in just less than two years...it was all over.

Things to keep in mind.

[originalcaptainmarvel]

I can forgive Valiant for going with the WWF and Nintendo early on. Valiant was a start up company, and two very popular activities at that time were pro wrestling and video games. So it made sense. However, all bets would be off if they had tried to have the Ultimate Warrior fight the Eternal Warrior with Mario as the ref and luigi as the timekeeper.

[DJSpecter]

Once again, I'm not Massarsky's lawyer, I just relate the story, and the line about "hasn't anything happened since" I put in from a different story that he told about Cyndi Lauper (sp?) and then cross referenced to Shooter about how he "can't get through an interview without badmouthing".

So I take some blame in poorly editing the story to keep it on track with Valiant. Today Steve told me (out of context) how he was always very intimidated by Shooter. All of you hear, "he was intimidated so he made a conspiracy." I know that so you don't have to tell me what you read from what I say.

Putting this together with what I believe Mr. Layton said at some other time, that Shooter was a control freek in terms of the company. And as all you said, he had an emotional attachment to it. So basically, everyone knows what Pro-shooter people believe, so there is no reason to reiterate it. But neutral people might see it your way and and they might see that Massarsky et al were afraid of losing the company that they had been trying to fund, and manage etc. and therefore fealt a need to restrict Shooter's power so that he could work TOGETHER with everyone else there. As Shooter himself said in one of his interviews, they didn't fire him; they put new restrictions on his abilities and warned him of the possibility that breaking those restrictions would get him fired.

Based on the stories Mr. Massarsky told me, from Cyndi Lauper to Jessica's Wonders (an attempted bakery, under his failed business "Business Incubation Group") the reason that they parted was because the other side told Massarsky that they weren't interested in listening to him, and that they held the counter position because they didn't like someone thinking that they could help them (That they didn't want to believe that someone else (specifically Massarsky) could help them, they didn't want help.) It seems somewhat likely that this was the real parting of Shooter and Massarsky. Shooter was taking too much time and money on HIS product. Management and Funding didn't like how Shooter was using their money and not allowing them control of how it was used. They tried to trim the weed, the weed couldn't take being trimmed so it ran away.

Once again, unless this in any way helps you to see a compromised position, we don't need the refried beans of "Shooter was a genius and you must be sleeping with Massarsky."

-Dave

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

"Shooter was a genius and you must be sleeping with Massarsky."

-Dave

Shooter WAS a genius...for a very brief, and very bright moment, in his career. He just wanted it HIS way, and it wasn't Burger King.

And...you're sleeping with Massarsky? Man, that's hot.

Take pictures.

[DJSpecter]

I'm not denying him his genius. And no, I'm not sleeping with Massarsky and I didn't realize you swung that way, I don't, neither does he (not that I've asked, but based on the girlfriend I met when I was up there).

sheesh
-dave

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

I'm not denying him his genius. And no, I'm not sleeping with Massarsky and I didn't realize you swung that way, I don't, neither does he (not that I've asked, but based on the girlfriend I met when I was up there).

sheesh
-dave

ROFL!

Tis but a gentle joke, based on YOUR statement, Deej.... No assumptions need be made.

[dino]

[x-omatic]

And no, I'm not sleeping with Massarsky and I didn't realize you swung that way, I don't, neither does he (not that I've asked, but based on the girlfriend I met when I was up there).

sheesh
-dave

"not that theres anything wrong with that" JS

[originalcaptainmarvel]

Yes, Shooter is a genius. Remeber, he created the Legion of Superheroes!

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Yes, Shooter is a genius. Remeber, he created the Legion of Superheroes!

He did?

<are ya kidding, OCM?>

Cause....ya know, ol' Jimbo was 6 when the LOSH debuted.

<Yer kiddin...right?>

;')

[originalcaptainmarvel]

Maybe not the whole Legion,but I know he created Cosmic Boy, one of the early members of the Legion. I also remember he was only 15 or so when he sold his first story to DC Comics. I remember Shooter saying something about the DC editor wanted him to write stories just like Marvel Comics. BTW, fans of Shooter should track down the original run of Comics Scene, a prozine produced by Starlog. The first run of it, 11 issues in all, debuted in 1981 with Stan and Shooter on the cover. There are a lot of interviews and letters to the editor from him. They are found pretty cheaply.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Maybe not the whole Legion,but I know he created Cosmic Boy, one of the early members of the Legion. I also remember he was only 15 or so when he sold his first story to DC Comics. I remember Shooter saying something about the DC editor wanted him to write stories just like Marvel Comics. BTW, fans of Shooter should track down the original run of Comics Scene, a prozine produced by Starlog. The first run of it, 11 issues in all, debuted in 1981 with Stan and Shooter on the cover. There are a lot of interviews and letters to the editor from him. They are found pretty cheaply.

Cosmic Boy made his first appearance...along with Lightning Lad and Saturn Girl...in the pages of Adventure #247, when Shooter was only 6....

....are you SURE Shooter created Cosmic Boy?

[Steve Topper]

Maybe not the whole Legion,but I know he created Cosmic Boy, one of the early members of the Legion. I also remember he was only 15 or so when he sold his first story to DC Comics. I remember Shooter saying something about the DC editor wanted him to write stories just like Marvel Comics.

Boy, lots of misinformation here. The initial characters Shooter created were Ferro Lad, Karate Kid, Princess Projectra and Nemesis Kid. They all tried to join the Legion at the same time, with Nemesis Kid being a traitor. Shooter was 13 when he sold his first script to Mort Weisinger, not 15. And Mort didn't ask him to write like Marvel; that was Shooter's idea to try to inject life into a book HE thought was very poorly written. Mort liked the layouts and bought the story and continued to buy stories from Jim.

Most of this information can be found throughout various interviews and articles, but the best current source I've found is the Legion Companion published by TwoMorrows -- the same company that publishes the Jack Kirby Collector and Alter Ego.

Steve

[originalcaptainmarvel]

I stand corrected! I think I'll stick to Shazam! trivia. But I was right about the Comics Scene magazines.