A new Valiant could still use Phil Seleski, if not Solar...

[bamaphilosopher]

I've been thinking about how tough it would be to recreate the Valiant universe without Magnus, Solar, and Turok, especially since Solar was the lynchpin of the Valiant universe, and then I realized something: the way Valiant set up Phil Seleski as an energy being who just happened to emulate his childhood hero, Solar, makes him really a different character.

In other words, the new Valiant may not have the rights to Solar, but they could still have Phil Seleski, and simply create a new name for his hero persona, like SunStroke or something like that. They could even incorporate a funny story about how he got sued by the people who owned the rights to Solar. And that way, you could again use Erica Pierce as a villain.

I think having Phil Seleski as SunStroke or something, plus the Geomancer (Geoff), Bloodshot, Eternal Warrior, X-O Manowar (which would be the flagship), Harbinger, Rai (current-day, since a 4001 universe is pointless without Magnus), Doctor Mirage, and Shadowman, would be a nice cornerstone for a new Valiant universe. And I think they'd have to reboot and retell the origins (although embracing the "Alpha and Omega" storyline and reprinting it for new readers might not be a bad idea, since they need some foundation--if not reprint it, retell it somehow).

They'd certainly miss Turok, Magnus, and Solar, but what can you do?

I wouldn't do titles like Archer and Armstrong, HardCorps, Armorines, etc., but rather use them as guest appearances in the new universe.

[Elveen]

the only thing I want to add.....

Aram HAS to be a big part the VALIANT universe...... (I always thought the immortals kinda held the whole thing together......) we can argue if Ivar is necessary.... but Gilly and Aram are essential.... IMO

[bamaphilosopher]

Ooh, I forgot about Timewalker. That could be really good, if done right.

The only problem I have with Archer and Armstrong is that I don't think anyone but Barry Windsor-Smith could do it. Then again, I'm tainted by how bad the stories were after he left. That's why I'd keep them as supporting characters in Eternal Warrior. But anyway, that's just me. That's what I'd do.

[Elveen]

fair enough....

give me a chance... I'll take care of A&A......

[bamaphilosopher]

Sounds good. If someone did it right, it would be cool.

Don't you wish a bunch of us could get together and write stories for a new Valiant?

[Elveen]

Sounds good. If someone did it right, it would be cool.

Don't you wish a bunch of us could get together and write stories for a new VALIANT?

um.... yes..... I vote for Della on shadowman....... I could do A&A..... (I could bring the histoy into it.... ), bama... you could do whatever you wanted..... , Slym could do Rai, Hobo and Jedi would have to do something..... thoses dudes are funny..... and.... Kinghtt could do Bloodshot.... he would just shoot up everything in every issue!

now all we need is Shooter to guide us.......

[cobra_commander]

I think having Phil Seleski as SunStroke or something, plus the Geomancer (Geoff), Bloodshot, Eternal Warrior, X-O Manowar (which would be the flagship), Harbinger, Rai (current-day, since a 4001 universe is pointless without Magnus), Doctor Mirage, and Shadowman, would be a nice cornerstone for a new VALIANT universe.

I totally agree

Phil Seleski and Erica Pierce, the harbinger foundation, the harby kids, harada, the geomancers, gilad and his bothers, rai, aric, x-o not to mention shadowman - you've got great parts of the VALIANT U there. A really cool Universe. And more than enough to keep me reading.

[IanAlexavier]

This is a good discussion.. Id like to be on the editing board.. I love dealing with timeline/continuity issues, as well organizing who's where in the day to day in the VU... not that Ive done ANY of this before.. just sounds like fun:)

I agree. The Brothers need to be a big part... In regards to Ivar or A&A, Ive always thought that it would be neat to do a book with a few more pages, increase the price a bit and have it like the Rai flip books.. but change titles when needed.. and not necessarily come out monthy unless the story needed it..

[bamaphilosopher]

I'd love to be part of the planning for the reboot, and I'd love to write "SunStroke," as I've called him, beginning with the Geomancer and describing Phil Seleski and Erica Pierce's entry into the world, and how the world is sore afraid, giving rise to heroes. Being a lover of history, I'd also love to write Eternal Warrior. And X-O Manowar would be fun to write too. Heck, I'd write anything they let me.

As to the brothers, I think if you did an Eternal Warrior, a Timewalker, and a Geomancer title, you could cover them. Or you could do an "Eternal Warriors" title. I agree that Archer and Armstrong need to be integral to the stories, I just hesitate to have them stand in their own title, unless you could get a great writer/artist who had a feel for the characters. When they lost Barry Windsor-Smith, they never could find a direction for those characters.

Wow, what a dream. Are they really going to come out with a new Valiant? If so, maybe we'd better prepare some stories and make some submissions.

Oh, they could also do the Visitor, but I'd encourage them to do it right and make it an actual alien visitor this time, not that cheap "It's really Sting" stunt.

That's eleven solid titles right there: X-O Manowar, "SunStroke," the Geomancer, Eternal Warrior(s), Timewalker, Doctor Mirage, Harbinger, Rai (current-day, but with a young Grandmother computer and energy weapons; no Blood of Heroes, because that's Bloodshot), Bloodshot, the Visitor, and Shadowman. All they'd need is a good female hero for the twelfth and voila, you have a solid universe! And they'd need someone solid at the helm who could orchestrate an overall general vision, a la Jim Shooter, plan things out with the artists and writers at "story jam" sessions, and keep the continuity tight.

I personally thought Valiant's other titles were mistakes that didn't work well (with the exception of the first 12 Archer and Armstrong issues), and I think they'd make a mistake if they tried to flood the market with more than twelve titles, but they'd certainly have a lot of options if they needed more than twelve titles, too (Armorines, HardCorps, Archer and Armstrong, etc.).

In fact, I'd trim my list down to about eight titles, at least at first, until they established a footing, and then maybe expand to twelve. They'd have to come out with them slowly, too.

[ManofTheAtom]

In other words, the new VALIANT may not have the rights to Solar, but they could still have Phil Seleski, and simply create a new name for his hero persona, like SunStroke or something like that. They could even incorporate a funny story about how he got sued by the people who owned the rights to Solar. And that way, you could again use Erica Pierce as a villain.

This wouldn't work as Phil didn't read a Sunstroke or something like that comic book, he grew up specifically reading Doctor Solar comics that inspired him to build the reactor and wish he could become just like him.

Phil's basically a big fanboy who was transformed into his comic book hero. Any deviation of that would be an indication that he's moving away from his childhood, which at worse could end up invalidating the "wish" that turned him into Solar in the first place.

While this might be a good idea for a story, I don't see it working as a new status quo.

[bamaphilosopher]

Well, if the owners threatened to sue him, he'd have to come up with a new persona, wouldn't he? Maybe he could then grow beyond his original intent, realize what he is, and go beyond. After all, he many times acted as Phil Seleski, not "Solar," in the comics. Sure, Solar's his original inspiration, but when they threaten to sue you, you have to go without it.

But actually, since you balked at keeping pre-Unity as continuity, they don't even have to say "Solar" was his inspiration, since you can ignore those issues and start over. Even if you use the "Alpha and Omega" storyline, there is no mention of Solar in it. It's only after the title started that he made it clear that Solar was his inspiration.

It's either that or the new Valiant not use the character at all, and then you have no origins of the Valiant universe whatsoever.

I know you don't like having Solar, but bottom line is they don't have the rights, so what else can they do? I personally love the idea (of course, it's mine). And I think "SunStroke" or something like that captures the essence of the character.

He was NOT Solar from the comics. He was Phil Seleski, who emulated Solar. He can still do so even when they take away his right to wear a red suit and use the name "Solar."

His powers, his name, and his origins are different from the original character. And like you have argued so many times, they don't have to use pre-Unity as continuity anyway. They at the new Valiant would own the character Phil Seleski--why not use him?

I think it works perfectly. I'm surprised you don't like the idea, ManOfTheAtom. I think it's brilliant the way it works out.

Would you rather they did a universe without Seleski?

[ManofTheAtom]

It's either that or not use the character at all, and then you have no origins of the VALIANT universe whatsoever.

As I pointed out on another thread, it's possible that VALIANT Entertainment holds the rights to all the characters of the Solar Man of The Atom comic created by Jim Shooter (Phil Seleski, Erica Pierce, Gayle Nordheim, Clarkson, Jorge, etc, etc, etc), the only thing they don't own is the red suit and the names Doctor Solar and Solar.

What this means is that they could use Phil's name in stories (while he's merged with a sun) and even use Gayle across any and all titles until they're able to use the name Solar.

Which takes us to my next point.

I know you don't like having Solar, but they don't have the rights, so what else can they do?

Why do you say that I don't like having Solar?

As for the what they can do is get the rights so they can use the character.

What makes you think that they couldn't get the rights if they tried?

Would you rather they did a universe without Seleski?

They don't have to.

What I'd like to see is that they wait until they can use the name Solar to bring the character back. In the meantime they can tell all the Phil Seleski and Gayle Norheim stories they want (with Phil not present as he's merged with a sun).

He was NOT Solar from the comics

Sure he was, read Second Death again.

Post issue 4 Solar was made up of the Phil Seleski of an alternate future, a pre accident Phil Seleski, and Doctor Solar from the comics.

[bamaphilosopher]

"Sure he was, read Second Death again."

No, he still wasn't--that was a persona his mind created.

Also, you just said they don't have the rights to the name Solar, but they have all the rights to the characters created in the book (Phil Seleski, etc.), which only reinforces my very point.

[ManofTheAtom]

"Sure he was, read Second Death again."

No, he still wasn't--that was a persona his mind created.

Also, you just said they don't have the rights to the name Solar, but they have all the rights to the characters created in the book (Phil Seleski, etc.), which only reinforces my very point.

But your point is for Phil to find a new heroic identity, when doing such a thing goes against who the character is and the core of the concept.

The Doctor Solar persona created by Phil was the guy from the comics, he even says as much when he explains who he is to Tammy. He says that his memories are mixed in with Phil's, yet while he can't tell them apart he knows that he's Doctor Solar from Atom Valley. That's even clearer when his skin turns green when he creates the gold for OD.

Also, I doubt people would want to buy that comic. They didn't buy it when Gilad changed his name from Eternal Warrior to Warmaster.

[bamaphilosopher]

Also, I'm assuming a worse-case scenario, where they can't resecure the rights to Solar, Turok, and Magnus.

As you even point out, too, they can use Seleski, etc. Why not just have him come up with a new hero persona when he realizes he can't use one somebody else owns the rights to?

[ManofTheAtom]

Also, I'm assuming a worse-case scenario, where they can't resecure the rights to Solar, Turok, and Magnus.

As you even point out, too, they can use Seleski, etc. Why not just have him come up with a new hero persona when he realizes he can't use one somebody else owns the rights to?

While that idea might work as a short term storyarc, it can't and shouldn't be turned into the new status quo.

As I said, Phil didn't grow up reading any comics other than Doctor Solar's, and he created his reactor hoping that it would turn him into Doctor Solar.

If he changes his hero name and costume then he might as well have grown up reading Batman and gone to the gym twice a day to gain muscle, study martial arts in the Orient, and built a utility belt, Batcave, and Batmobile.

If getting a new name and outfit is all it takes for Phil to be a super hero then he doesn't need to have read Doctor Solar comics or built a reactor.

[bamaphilosopher]

"Also, I doubt people would want to buy that comic. They didn't buy it when Gilad changed his name from Eternal Warrior to Warmaster."

They weren't buying anything Valiant at that point because everything sucked.

I think you just like to argue with me, ManOfTheAtom. Which is fine, but I don't see why you don't see the brilliance of the idea of continuing to use Phil Seleski as the lynchpin of the universe. Even you mention starting off the character, "waiting" for the rights to Solar to come along. What if they never were able to get those rights? You're basically talking about the same thing I am--continuing to use the character.

[bamaphilosopher]

"If he changes his hero name and costume then he might as well have grown up reading Batman and gone to the gym twice a day to gain muscle, study martial arts in the Orient, and built a utility belt, Batcave, and Batmobile."

Batman's a perfect example--if he could no longer wear the bat suit, because of some legal thing, wouldn't he still fight crime?

Phil Seleski is not the original Doctor Solar, but a different character. At the time, Valiant did that to distance itself from the old stories.

Quite simply, that now works in the favor of any new company, who can use Phil Seleski as an energy being, but can't use Turok or Magnus.

[ManofTheAtom]

"Also, I doubt people would want to buy that comic. They didn't buy it when Gilad changed his name from Eternal Warrior to Warmaster."

They weren't buying anything VALIANT at that point because everything sucked.

I think you just like to argue with me, ManOfTheAtom. Which is fine, but I don't see why you don't see the brilliance of the idea of continuing to use Phil Seleski as the lynchpin of the universe. Even you mention starting off the character, "waiting" for the rights to Solar to come along. What if they never were able to get those rights? You're basically talking about the same thing I am--continuing to use the character.

But I'm being a little more optimistic about it, lol.

"Hope for the best and expect the worst" but you could still be more positive about it. Why this negativity?

Like I said, your idea works as a short term story arc designed to explore the effect of what would happen to Phil if he decided to move away from his Doctor Solar obssession as part of the exploration of the unanswered question of how exactly he gained his powers, but it doesn't work as the new status quo.

[ManofTheAtom]

"If he changes his hero name and costume then he might as well have grown up reading Batman and gone to the gym twice a day to gain muscle, study martial arts in the Orient, and built a utility belt, Batcave, and Batmobile."

Batman's a perfect example--if he could no longer wear the bat suit, because of some legal thing, wouldn't he still fight crime?

Phil Seleski is not the original Doctor Solar, but a different character. At the time, VALIANT did that to distance itself from the old stories.

Quite simply, that now works in the favor of any new company, who can use Phil Seleski as an energy being, but can't use Turok or Magnus.

Phil Seleski is the modern age Solar, just like there was an Earth 1 and Earth 2 Batman.

And again, why all the negativity? What makes you think they won't get the rights to use Solar? Have you heard anything concrete about this?

[bamaphilosopher]

How am I being negative? I think I'm being smart...using the character Valiant created without having to wait for the rights to the original Solar from Western. I would love to pitch this idea to the new Valiant.

Sure, if they got the rights back, they could use "Solar" again. I'm not objecting to that.

But Dark Horse has the rights to reprint Dr. Solar and Magnus back issues, and for awhile ibooks had the rights to new Magnus issues, so I'm assuming those rights are now in limbo and won't be easy to obtain. I think they have to work with the assumption they can't get those back. If they did, great. But Shooter got a really sweet deal the first time. I doubt they'd get that again.

So why not give Phil Seleski a try and see if it works? "Status quo" has to be recreated again, anyway, since you yourself have argued time and again they can't reprint the pre-Unity and Unity storylines.

[ManofTheAtom]

How am I being negative? I think I'm being smart...using the character VALIANT created without having to wait for the rights to the original Solar from Western. I would love to pitch this idea to the new VALIANT.

Sure, if they got the rights back, they could use "Solar" again. I'm not objecting to that.

So why not give Phil Seleski a try and see if it works? "Status quo" has to be recreated again, anyway, since you yourself have argued time and again they can't reprint the pre-Unity and Unity storylines.

They can use Phil's name, doesn't necessarily mean they can use the character as he's still merged with a sun.

There's no rush in having Phil, Magnus, or Turok back, that can wait until they can get the rights to use them.

There's no reason to give Phil a new name when they can be smarter about it and wait until they can use Solar again.

People might not be inclined to spend money on a Sunstroke comic as the idea, while good enough for a short term arc (not the first one but one down the road) is very VH 2.

And I didn't say that they can't reprint the pre Unity stuff.

[bamaphilosopher]

No, going with a new universe without Solar is very VH2. I'd be honoring the original lynchpin to the Valiant universe: the Alpha and Omega storyline.

But I think you illustrate something well: no matter what they do, someone's not going to like it. Every great idea I have you shoot down, so I guess it's fortunate for me that you're not the new owner of Valiant.

[ManofTheAtom]

No, going with a new universe without Solar is very VH2. I'd be honoring the original lynchpin to the VALIANT universe: the Alpha and Omega storyline.

But I think you illustrate something well: no matter what they do, someone's not going to like it.

Just because Solar's not there out of the gate doesn't mean he never will be.

A character like Gayle can be used without any problem to remind people of Phil.

And it's not like they don't have a valid excuse for his abscense; he's merged with a sun

And I'm not shooting down your ideas. More than once I've said that the concept of Phil moving away from the Doctor Solar identity would be great for a story arc, just not the new status quo as it goes against the core of the character.

What you're proposing is similar to when Spider-Man created four alternate identities.

[bamaphilosopher]

He's merged with a sun? New readers won't get that. I think it would be a mistake to embrace all of VH1 as continuity. They have to appeal to new readers. Either reprint pre-Unity and Unity and use it as the foundation, starting with Unity 1 and going from there, or start over. You and I may have all the VH1 stories, but new readers won't.

I don't know about Spider-Man's four alternate identities, but I do know Phil Seleski created alternate identities for himself all the time, including of course Solar. That is typical of the "Second Death" storyline, and hence right in line with the character.