A new Valiant could still use Phil Seleski, if not Solar...

[ManofTheAtom]

Which part did you agree with? You mean you'd take my idea as a miniseries, but not as foundational? That's not really agreeing with me, I don't think. I would keep Phil Seleski as the lynchpin of the universe, as he should be.

If it's not Solar, I don't care.

I hope I'm not being pulled into beating a dead horse again. But I did think it was important to address fears of a reboot, since so many reboots did fail, admittedly. So hopefully I'm making some new points here.

Reboot = last resort, an unimaginative mind's solution to difficult problems.

The various reboot attempts (VH2, etc.), are indeed a concern; however, I think the timing of those was wrong (everyone had been burned by speculation and bad storytelling), and they didn't return to Shooter's vision, but rather were pumping out Acclaim titles to back video games, or at least it seemed that way. The ibooks Magnus reboot doesn't count, because that's not VALIANT.

"100 reboots failed, but the 101 will suceed!"

I think now, ten years later, the timing is better. Interest in VALIANT is reviving again.

So it must be killed by giving people the option between buying a new comic with a new origin for 3 dollars or a 10 year old origin by 10 cents in the back issue bins.

Maybe they caught lightning in a bottle with Shooter, ran that into the ground, and can never recapture that again. But as a fan, a reader, and a writer, I think the only chance they have is to stick to that formula: tight storytelling, tight interlocking continuity between a few titles. Embracing the continuity of ten years ago would not provide the tight continuity feel they need to capture that Shooter style. It would open the floodgates, I believe--writers would ignore some of the crap that happened back then, anyway. You'd almost have to in order to capture a Shooter feel again.

But they should only stick to it as long as it's convenient. Once it becomes problematic they should feel free to change character names, backstory, and even the premise of the universe itself.

If we're going to ignore the stuff we didn't like, and include people like Ken and Randy Cartier, why *SQUEE* off people who say, whoops, you're going against this issue and that one from ten years ago. If you use Geoff as the Geomancer (which I would), people would cry foul--no, the new guy is the Geomancer. If you write a teenage Sting and Harbinger crew, everybody'd say, "Hey, it's ten years later! Shouldn't they be older now?" "Hey, why aren't Archer and Flamingo together? They are in Rai 0!" "Hey, how can you use Jack Boniface? He died back in 1999!"

What new guy's the Geomancer? Clay?

Geoff was the Geomancer from 99 till he stepped down for his niece. Clay could have died before or after Geoff returned from the Lost Land. There is no new guy.

Of course Sting shouldn't be a teenage anymore, it is in fact 10 years later so he should have aged. That doesn't mean they can't tell stories about him set in the past.

And again with Jack. I've had this argument millions of times.

Jack died in 99, that's it. Archer will die in 2020 and Bloodshot will die in 2028.

That's what makes VALIANT different from DC and Marvel, the heroes can actually die, they don't come back again and again and again and again like Jean Grey.

VALIANT's the alternative to the comic book cliche that's been beaten to the ground for 70 years. If they're going to follow the DC and Marvel way of going comics then I'm not gonna bother with them.

My money's too precious to throw away on something I already own or can find with the competition.

If you retell Shadowman's origin, everybody'd be asking, "Hey, where did Lydia go? She's a really cool villain!" "Oh, she died back in issue so and so, so we can't use her."

Good. Why would you want to see her again?

Or maybe some writer doesn't know that, reuses her, and everybody cries foul, "but she died back in issue so and so!!!"

As they should.

Why not just start fresh and keeping a tight vision instead of *SQUEE* everybody off by the inevitable continuity gaffes that would ensue? And why eliminate the opportunity to use the Visitor, Harbinger, Shadowman, and X-O Manowar ("10 years later" titles of these books would be vastly different from the original; only X-O would work, and you'd have no supporting cast because they'd all be dead, and no Orb Industries).

I said it once

I said it twice

I said it three times... hell, I probably said it dozens if not hundreds of times by now.

NOT NECESSARILY.

EVERYTHING about X-O can be dismissed as a virtual reality scenario where Aric's been in a trap perpetrated by the former owner of Orb Industries, who was introduced in the last issue before BQuake.

EVERYTHING from Crescendo to the painter that burned homeless people to the monster and those lame Spider-Alien wanna-bes can be dismissed for the crap they are.

And without Magnus, you'd have Rai stuck by himself in the 4000's--you couldn't do a modern-day version, which I would, without it screwing up the Rai 0 timeline. And doing a 4000 universe without Magnus would be pointless. So toss Rai out the window as a concept, too.

You don't need Magnus to do Rai, I don't know where you got that idea from.

Rai lived in Japan, an entirely different continent from North Am.

You also can't use Lydia, one of their greatest villains, anymore--she's dead (how brilliant was that?).

As she should be. Use new villains, why keep the old ones forever?

MOTA asked me to think of the consequences of starting after Unity 1. Think of the consequences of being saddled with five years of continuity that's over ten years old!

Most of which isn't an issue if YOU DON'T DWELL ON IT.

They ran VH1 into the ground, in my opinion. That's where it should stay: in the crash and burn that they left it. I cringe whenever I read Birthquake and beyond.

Then don't read it. I mean, clearly you want Unity and nothing else, and you want replacement stories for stuff that already came out.

You didn't like something so you want someone to replace it with something else. I rather they just moved on and didn't waste their resources on band-aid solutions that only people who already read those stories will appreciate.

For new readers ALL OF THIS IS MOOT. They're completely ignorant of it and they don't need replacement stories.

Embrace Shooter and his work, or absent that, at least his style. That's what I'd do. Maybe it too would crash and burn, but I think having tight continuity and retelling the origins is their only chance to make it.

Well, you admit it, you want them to retell stories.

I prefer new material, stuff I haven't seen before.

Give new readers a universe they can own, and not have them asking what happened 10 years ago so they can understand why Lydia's not around, why Ken and Randy Cartier are gone, etc.

You rather they ask themselves about stuff from 14 years ago.

Again, I think any continuity they do use, they need to reprint. And, as pointed out, that's all dated material (1992, 1993, 1994). So think of the nightmare of having to change all those dates, which they would have to do, if they want to keep any of the feel of the original titles.

They don't have to change anything if they avoid dwelling on the bad and move away from it.

I think a fresh start is the best way to go, if you can't reprint pre-Unity and Unity. And yes, I'm a Shooter fan, and I believe the best stuff they did was with him at the helm, and everythng else is best ignored because it's too big a mess.

So you want VH 5 or replacement stories for what you already own, but the one thing you DON'T want is new stories with the VALIANT characters.

[ManofTheAtom]

Would Phil lose his power if he stopped dressing up as Solar?

No way. Throughout Alpha & Omega, when he gained his power, he makes one passing reference to Solar and this was in a mocking fashion as he scared off Gayle's ex. Other than that reference to Solar, there is no other mention to the comic Dr. Solar.

He read Solar as a kid. It was his favourite comic. He chose to emulate him as that was the closest his powers could be compared to (maybe he missed the first appearance of Molecular Man?).

Not exactly.

For one thing Second Death ended before Alpha & Omega did (that's the way those who got the comics new read it. SD first and the last six chapters of A&0 last).

Per Solar 3, Phil Seleski grew up reading Doctor Solar comics and built his reactor wishing that it would change him like it did him.

[ManofTheAtom]

If Jack's not dead, Phil's not Solar, and continuity is a meaningless word, then I don't care, and VE won't get my money.

I can find characters that never die, change names, and don't grow over at DC and Marvel.

ok....

here is my issue......

there has to be a starting point and an ending point....... (we can argue where these should be)

and then there has to be a re-starting point...... (we can argue when this should be)

and..... there has to be some of the history / foundation of each character.... so what do you use?

take Sting..... is he still a kid..... is he the Harbinger..... the Visitor... or the powerless confused kid that paralyzed Harada and walked away at the end of Harby #25.... or something else..... ?????

you know what.......

right now he is in a DEAD UNIVERSE..... he lives on this message board.



I want him to see his development monthly..... in new comic books....


listen.... are there enough VALIANT fans who bought old VAL books and know all the back story to keep new VALIANT books afloat.......

to be sucessful..... new fans will need to be made...... you know what will bring new fans..... great storytelling and good art..... my high school kids that are into comics (there are only a few that I know of) have no idea who XO... or Shadowman, or Rai... or whoever is..... they don't know......

great storytelling.... good art.... then maybe.... you can have a sucessful company..... that can tell a story about the characters we love.....

I haven't read the end of VH1.... I've gotten into Brithquake in a couple of runs... but not all of them..... and you know what..... no matter how good or bad the end of VH1 is......


it does not matter..... the new books need to be good..... I don't know nothing about XO #68 (well just what you all have spolied for me j/k )

should Jack be alive..... heck yes! He is a great character! ...but he was supposed to be dead... or he did die in SM #43..... says who...... a company that does not make any books any more.....

Jack is a great character.... why not bring him back.....

however you want to explain it..... we'll "buy" it..... Solar / SunStroke / MagmaMan... (whatever) made a mistake..... Darque did something (took control of the entire world.... whatever).... but then some thing happened.... and

now we are in 2006 /07 and ...here we are.....

it was a dream.... a ______________... or a _____________... or maybe a ______________.... whatever....

new books..... great story.... great / good art .......

if the new VALIANT is gonna survive and even thrive.... (movies... toys.. cartoons.... TV shows.... computer games.....) they need to use the best of what they got.....

if the new VLAIANT tells me that everything after Unity #1 really didn't happen.... um.... ok..... sure... it's a comic book! ( or after Chaos ... or this or that...)

If I owned the company (whatever that means) I want to make sure that I can create a viable company.... that makes me $$$$$$$

us "fanboys" on internet sites..... whatever..... "we" will not be the reason the new VALIANT will be sucessful..... a part... maybe.....

sucess = great storytelling and great / good art....



just tell us.... "here is the starting point" and go from there..... some us us "maybe including myslef"... might say (on this message board) "but what about this or that".... but.... who cares.... what we say....

tell a great story...... and we'll buy it......

oh.... and....

Jack and Aram have to be in the new books

and lastly.... don't make them too expensive.... I'd buy news print..... I can't afford a bunch of $4 comics.......


(that was fun...... I love my prep period.....)

[ManofTheAtom]

With NBC's Heroes being the huge hit it is right now, people might be hungry for some comics that feature super heroes outside their window.

That's what VE should focus on.

Imagine this:

A new X-O Manowar series that picks up 10 years after the fact that carries reprints of the first four issues of the original series a la Alpha & Omega.

[mavros]

Would Phil lose his power if he stopped dressing up as Solar?

No way. Throughout Alpha & Omega, when he gained his power, he makes one passing reference to Solar and this was in a mocking fashion as he scared off Gayle's ex. Other than that reference to Solar, there is no other mention to the comic Dr. Solar.

He read Solar as a kid. It was his favourite comic. He chose to emulate him as that was the closest his powers could be compared to (maybe he missed the first appearance of Molecular Man?).

Not exactly.

For one thing Second Death ended before Alpha & Omega did (that's the way those who got the comics new read it. SD first and the last six chapters of A&0 last).

Per Solar 3, Phil Seleski grew up reading Doctor Solar comics and built his reactor wishing that it would change him like it did him.

The chronology of the publishing is irrelevant. It's the chronology of the narrative itself that matters. The events of Alpha & Omega precede issue #1 and everything that came before it despite the fact that Alpha & Omega was broken up into ten separate parts.

After receiving these powers, Seleski makes only one reference to Solar on panel throughout the story. He never adapts the costume once, and that's even after he decides that he will use his powers for what he considers 'good'... and it was at least a good number of months prior to him entering another universe.

Maintaining the identity of Solar has no bearing on his powers. Him wishing to be Solar, after the accident, has no bearing on his powers (you can't unfry egg once you've fried it). Even if he consciously wished to not have the powers, he would not lose them (for example, he makes reference to wanting to sleep but being unable to, wanting to taste food/drink, would could guess that he would also not want to creep Gayle out so much as well...) only by dissipitating his energy would he achieve that goal through death.

As well, Seleski goes beyond the character of Dr. Solar in the comics as well. He's able to control all of his energy and not worry about poisoning others with radiation. The benefit of adapting the Solar identity provides him a compass to guide him in the use of this power (as well as concealing his identity so he can live a normal life). There is the possibility of him maturing to the point where it is no longer necessary to make use of the Solar persona in order to manage his power.

[ManofTheAtom]

Phil didn't wish to become Solar after the accident, he wished to become Solar ever since he was a kid and read the comics, that's what lead him to build the reactor in the first place. He was emulating Raymond Solar in the hope of becoming just like him.

What you're trying to say is this:

As there are no direct mentions of Doctor Solar, Gold Key, or anything else related to the original comic in Alpha & Omega, any follow up to that origin can reveal that Phil was inspired by a completely different comic.

You are right, this could be done. Personally I still wouldn't care as I want to read Solar comics, not Phil Seleski redux.

[cjv]

Phil didn't wish to become Solar after the accident, he wished to become Solar ever since he was a kid and read the comics, that's what lead him to build the reactor in the first place. He was emulating Raymond Solar in the hope of becoming just like him.

What you're trying to say is this:

As there are no direct mentions of Doctor Solar, Gold Key, or anything else related to the original comic in Alpha & Omega, any follow up to that origin can reveal that Phil was inspired by a completely different comic.

You are right, this could be done. Personally I still wouldn't care as I want to read Solar comics, not Phil Seleski redux.

I don't think that is what he (or anything else) is saying at all.

He is saying that since in Alpha and Omega there is no mention that his powers are due to him wishing he could be Solar, there is no NEED for that the be the reason he got his powers.

Sure, he could still have had a subconscious desire to be Solar. Sure, that could be why he built his reactor. But that DOESN'T need to be the REASON he received, or keeps, his powers.

It doesn't NEED to be a desire to be a comic book superhero that is the source of his powers (or the reason he got them). You seem to be fixated on this notion that the reason he got his powers is because he wanted to be a superhero (specifically because he wanted to be Solar). That doesn't have to be the case.

Chris

[ManofTheAtom]

Well, that's a good theory but the comics contradict it.

A&0 Phil explained what happened to SD Phil before they merged, while Doctor Solar told Tammy what kind of person Phil was before the accident.

You should really re-read the first four issues of the comic.

[cjv]

Reboot = last resort, an unimaginative mind's solution to difficult problems.

Couldn't you also say that a reboot is a potential solution to a quagmire of disrupted continuity and conflicting history?

Yes, you can.

I am curious, you keep on talking about starting off after Unity (which I am not a fan of, BTW) as retelling old stories. You seem to imply that the new comics would simply repeat the same story lines. Why is that the case? If they are starting "fresh" from Unity, why can't they tell completely NEW stories, go in a completely DIFFERENT direction? Those wouldn't be retelling of old stories. It WOULD be rewriting the Valiant history (which is why I am not in favor of it) but they would be new stories.

Chris

[cjv]

Well, that's a good theory but the comics contradict it.

A&0 Phil explained what happened to SD Phil before they merged, while Doctor Solar told Tammy what kind of person Phil was before the accident.

You should really re-read the first four issues of the comic.

I will gladly try to do so. Can you point out the specific location when they say that Solar's powers came from a desire to be the comic book Solar? Not the fact that he might have emulated the comic book Solar, or wanted to be like him, but the specific REASON he has his powers is SOLELY due to his desire and will to be a real-life "Solar" and would be lost if he changes his "name"?

I will try to take a look at that section this evening, if I get a chance after taking my daughter trick or treating.

I know there is the whole thing about the "wish machine" and Phil "wished" to become Solar, his childhood hero. However, there is no real explanation of how it works, or anything like that. For all we know, some other entity was granting Phil's "wish", not his machine. For all we know, Phil was just speculating. No where (AFAIK) did it say that his powers would vanish if he suddenly no longer used the Solar name. We could just as easilly speculate that his development of powers was permanent. But for some reason you seem to insist upon the idea that the powers AREN'T permanent, and that if Phil stops using the red costumed name and identity of "Solar", then he loses his powers.

And as I pointed out before, it doesn't explain how Erica got her powers, since she certainly didn't wish to become Solar. You hypothesized that perhaps Phil gave her powers as well to have a nemesis. But sticking with the "Solar" mythology, wouldn't he have "wished" a nemesis more like in the comic book? Sure, you explanation is one potential answer, but it doesn't have to be THE answer.

Chris

[ManofTheAtom]

Reboot = last resort, an unimaginative mind's solution to difficult problems.

Couldn't you also say that a reboot is a potential solution to a quagmire of disrupted continuity and conflicting history?

Yes, you can.

I am curious, you keep on talking about starting off after Unity (which I am not a fan of, BTW) as retelling old stories. You seem to imply that the new comics would simply repeat the same story lines. Why is that the case? If they are starting "fresh" from Unity, why can't they tell completely NEW stories, go in a completely DIFFERENT direction? Those wouldn't be retelling of old stories. It WOULD be rewriting the VALIANT history (which is why I am not in favor of it) but they would be new stories.

Chris

As I've said before, all of the Unity comics began mid arc.

Archer & Armstrong #1 began with them being attacked by the cult, a cliffhanger resolved in issue 3.

Eternal Warrior #1 ended with Gilad and Jillian being attacked by unknown assailants, a cliffhanger resolved in issue 3.

Shadowman #4 began with Jack going under a tree and traveling to the Lost Land, while issue 5 ended with him swimming back with Elya before she vanished, a cliffhanger resolved in issue 6.

Harbinger #8 began in the Doctor's house, but during Unity Kris (who was pregnant before she left) gave birth, a plot resolved in the issues that came later.

Magnus #15 had Magnus fighting Talpa before Rai and Rookie took him away to the Lost Land, a cliffhanger resolved in issue 17.

In Rai #6 Mothergod forced Japan to crash on Earth, which was followed up on in issue 8.

Solar #11 ended with Phil leaving Gayle to go check out Erica's home, which was followed up in issue 14 when he explained all of Unity to her.

Finally there's X-O Manowar, who toward the end of Unity wished to be back in his time of origin with the X-O Manowar armor to conquer the romans, a plot that was explored in issues 9 and 10.

So what the consensus that wants things to pick up after Unity wants is for Shooter to retell those stories with new ones that replace the old ones.

A new resolution to how Archer & Armstrong got away from the cult.

A new resolution to how Gilad and Jillian got away from the shooters.

A new resolution to Jack coming out from under the tree.

A new resolution to Kris' pregnancy

A new resolution to Magnus' fight with Talpa

A new resolution to the fall of Japan in Rai

A new resolution to Phil abandoning Gayle after his fight with the Eggbreakers in issues 10 and 11

And a new resolution to Aric's trip through time to 410.

Eight cliffhangers with eight resolutions that have already been told.

Why should VE pick up the Unity cliffhangers and not the ones from the last issues?

What makes the cliffhanger in Eternal Warrior #1 more important than the cliffhanger in Bloodshot #51?

I for one am more interested in seeing how Bloodshot survived the nuclear explosion so he can later die in 2028 than I am in seeing how Gilad and Jillian get away from the shooters a second time.

[cjv]

(lots of stuff cut out)
I for one am more interested in seeing how Bloodshot survived the nuclear explosion so he can later die in 2028 than I am in seeing how Gilad and Jillian get away from the shooters a second time.

Okay, I see. When you say retelling old stories, you are specifically talking about the one or two issues that occured immediately following Unity, since those cliffhangers (as you call them) still exist.

My mistake. I thought you were referring to retelling the entire plot lines of ALL the issues following Unity, not just the one or two issues following Unity.

Chris

[ManofTheAtom]

I will gladly try to do so. Can you point out the specific location when they say that Solar's powers came from a desire to be the comic book Solar? Not the fact that he might have emulated the comic book Solar, or wanted to be like him, but the specific REASON he has his powers is SOLELY due to his desire and will to be a real-life "Solar" and would be lost if he changes his "name"?

I will try to take a look at that section this evening, if I get a chance after taking my daughter trick or treating.

I know there is the whole thing about the "wish machine" and Phil "wished" to become Solar, his childhood hero. However, there is no real explanation of how it works, or anything like that. For all we know, some other entity was granting Phil's "wish", not his machine. For all we know, Phil was just speculating. No where (AFAIK) did it say that his powers would vanish if he suddenly no longer used the Solar name. We could just as easilly speculate that his development of powers was permanent. But for some reason you seem to insist upon the idea that the powers AREN'T permanent, and that if Phil stops using the red costumed name and identity of "Solar", then he loses his powers.

And as I pointed out before, it doesn't explain how Erica got her powers, since she certainly didn't wish to become Solar. You hypothesized that perhaps Phil gave her powers as well to have a nemesis. But sticking with the "Solar" mythology, wouldn't he have "wished" a nemesis more like in the comic book? Sure, you explanation is one potential answer, but it doesn't have to be THE answer.

Chris

Solar #3 page 5 (Doctor Solar talking to Tammy)

"That's Phillip, high school age. Bright boy... liked to draw... went to special art classes. Loved comics books. Especially that one.

Doctor Solar was a nuclear physicist in the comics, which inspired Phillip's interest in science. He had a real aptitude for it, too, here he is in college.

Here he is a few years later, the principal theorist behind the fusion reactor being built at the Edgewater nuclear facility.

Shortly after the reactor was fired up, something went wrong. It ran out of control. It might have blown up, erasing North America, if Phillip Seleski hadn't entered the containment and stopped the event personally.

The experience was disturbingly similar to the origin of Doctor Solar, the comic book character. It was almost as if Seleski subconciously meant to recreate the scenario in real life.

I dodn't know how he stopped the event. There's no explanation for it... except by force of will, perhaps.

Seleski awakened in the hospital to find himself perceiving energy of all types, not merely the narrow light-spectrum that ordinary people sense.

And, slowly, he learned that he had the ability to manipulate energy on a fantastic scale.

Then... something happened. Seleski got too... high and mighty. This is the part that still isn't clear to me. All I know is that he caused a catastropher... killed a lot of people.

Seleski was torn by guilt. Literally. That's how I came into existance."

I'm tired of repeating myself, so just go back to the hundred times I explained how getting rid of the name might affect Phil.

I tried to explain it by using Aladdin as an example and it went ignored, so I don't know how else to make you understand it.

As for Erica, I also tried to explain to you that Phil had his wish machine and Erica had her wish machine, but apparently my word's not good enough so just go read Unity again so you can read it yourself.

Phil wished to be a hero and built his machine, Erica wished to stop her father from raping her and built her machine.

Erica had nothing to do with her gaining powers, and the machine wasn't designed to give super powers to people, it was designed to grant Phil his wish. What happened to Erica is directly linked to what happened to Phil.

In Solar 14 (Shooter) he blames himself for giving Erica her powers.

[cjv]

(quotes from Solar cut out to save space) Seleski was torn by guilt. Literally. That's how I came into existance."

Yes, that is talking about how the Solar character split out of Phil. Via guilt. And it talks about how Phil wanted to be like Dr. Solar, so he built the reactor. They talk about how the accidents were similar. So what?

No where does it say that Phil specifically GOT his powers ONLY because he wanted to be like Solar. There is speculation that he did it with force of will. Maybe. Comic-Book-Solar specifically says that perhaps it was due to force of will. There is no statement saying that Phil ONLY got his powers because of his desire to be Solar.

I'm tired of repeating myself, so just go back to the hundred times I explained how getting rid of the name might affect Phil.

Except that you haven't been saying it MIGHT affect him, you are saying it WILL affect him, it has to affect him because that is the only reason he got his powers.

Yes, it might affect him. But it doesn't have to. You know what would be an interesting story - where Phil thinks it DOES affect him if he gives up the Solar name, so he subconsciously loses his powers. Only when he realized that he doesn't have to be "Solar", that his desire to be a superhero (specifically Solar) isn't integrally tied with his powers, does he gain them back.

I tried to explain it by using Aladdin as an example and it went ignored, so I don't know how else to make you understand it.

You Aladdin example is flawed. If Aladdin loses the lamp, he can no longer make any NEW wishes, but his old wishes still are there, still present.

As for Erica, I also tried to explain to you that Phil had his wish machine and Erica had her wish machine, but apparently my word's not good enough so just go read Unity again so you can read it yourself

Phil wished to be a hero and built his machine, Erica wished to stop her father from raping her and built her machine.

Erica had nothing to do with her gaining powers, and the machine wasn't designed to give super powers to people, it was designed to grant Phil his wish. What happened to Erica is directly linked to what happened to Phil.

I don't recall anywhere Phil saying the "wish machine" was only to grant HIS wishes.

You are arguing two sides now. Phil wished to be Solar, so he got powers very similar to Solar's. Erica with to stop her father, so...she got powers very similar to Solar? That doesn't make much sense to me.

Your explanation is one POSSIBLE explanation - it doesn't have to be the only one.

In Solar 14 (Shooter) he blames himself for giving Erica her powers.

Lots of interpretations for that comment. He could be blaming himself because he felt he gave them to her. He could be blaming himself because he built the machine that gave them to her. He could be blaming himself because he showed her how to use/access the powers, etc.

I am tired of arguing this. I am not trying to say that your ideas must be wrong. There are some interesting plot lines and stories that could develop from them. I keep (mistakenly) thinking that we can rationally discuss DIFFERENT ideas, but instead it always comes back to my ideas are right, your's are wrong. My way is the only way things can be done, your way will just be DC lite (or some similar comment).

The truth is there are lots of directions that VE can go - some will appeal to some people, some will appeal to others. Some people may disagree with some ideas, plot lines, story interpretations, but it doesn't make them WRONG. VE may very well decide that Solar loses his powers if he doesn't have the red costume and "Solar" name - that's a perfectly legitimate direction to go. But it doesn't have to be the ONLY direction to go.

And that's what I incorrectly keep assuming I can convince you. For some reason you insist that your interpretation of all things Valiant is the only legitimate interpretation. So have at it. IMO there is no point in discussing different ideas with someone who refuses to accept that any other ideas may have any validity.

Chris

[ManofTheAtom]

Yes, that is talking about how the Solar character split out of Phil. Via guilt. And it talks about how Phil wanted to be like Dr. Solar, so he built the reactor. They talk about how the accidents were similar. So what?

No where does it say that Phil specifically GOT his powers ONLY because he wanted to be like Solar. There is speculation that he did it with force of will. Maybe. Comic-Book-Solar specifically says that perhaps it was due to force of will. There is no statement saying that Phil ONLY got his powers because of his desire to be Solar.

...

Except that you haven't been saying it MIGHT affect him, you are saying it WILL affect him, it has to affect him because that is the only reason he got his powers.

Yes, it might affect him. But it doesn't have to. You know what would be an interesting story - where Phil thinks it DOES affect him if he gives up the Solar name, so he subconsciously loses his powers. Only when he realized that he doesn't have to be "Solar", that his desire to be a superhero (specifically Solar) isn't integrally tied with his powers, does he gain them back.

So you want VH 5, you don't want to read Solar comics, and you want to read bland stories where nothing bad happens to the characters.

You Aladdin example is flawed. If Aladdin loses the lamp, he can no longer make any NEW wishes, but his old wishes still are there, still present.

In every single version of the story when Aladdin looses his lamp what he wished for is lost, like it never happened.

A Genie can't have two masters, he's a servant to the one that holds the lamp.

I don't recall anywhere Phil saying the "wish machine" was only to grant HIS wishes.

You are arguing two sides now. Phil wished to be Solar, so he got powers very similar to Solar's. Erica with to stop her father, so...she got powers very similar to Solar? That doesn't make much sense to me.

Your explanation is one POSSIBLE explanation - it doesn't have to be the only one.

I never said that Erica got her powers from Phil's machine because she wished for them, I said she built her own machine, the Unity reactor, to grant her wish to stop her father from raping her.

Lots of interpretations for that comment. He could be blaming himself because he felt he gave them to her. He could be blaming himself because he built the machine that gave them to her. He could be blaming himself because he showed her how to use/access the powers, etc.

I am tired of arguing this. I am not trying to say that your ideas must be wrong. There are some interesting plot lines and stories that could develop from them. I keep (mistakenly) thinking that we can rationally discuss DIFFERENT ideas, but instead it always comes back to my ideas are right, your's are wrong. My way is the only way things can be done, your way will just be DC lite (or some similar comment).

The truth is there are lots of directions that VE can go - some will appeal to some people, some will appeal to others. Some people may disagree with some ideas, plot lines, story interpretations, but it doesn't make them WRONG. VE may very well decide that Solar loses his powers if he doesn't have the red costume and "Solar" name - that's a perfectly legitimate direction to go. But it doesn't have to be the ONLY direction to go.

And that's what I incorrectly keep assuming I can convince you. For some reason you insist that your interpretation of all things VALIANT is the only legitimate interpretation. So have at it. IMO there is no point in discussing different ideas with someone who refuses to accept that any other ideas may have any validity.

If the consensus' interpreation of things is what happens, then we'll end up with another reboot, won't have Solar, pick up after Unity with replacement stories, and things will end badly for the, what is, 12th time?

Oh yeah, and Jack will still be alive despite supposedly dying in 99.

[ManofTheAtom]

Btw, I don't remember who asked this or where, but someone asked about other characters who wanted to gain superpowers or something.

There's Faith from Harbinger, who just like Phil wished to be a superhero and had dreams of flying, and after Sting popped her she got her wish.

[Second_Death]

oh.... one more thing.....

bring back Shooter!

I think that echos the sentiments of everyone

[ManofTheAtom]

In Unity 2000 Shooter had no problem with ageing the characters and accepting that they had different experiences in the seven years he'd been gone.

If he does go back I wonder if he'll approach it in the same way.

[Second_Death]

Since the primary concern for VE will be to not lose money, they will be interested in keeping their costs down. Spending money on negotiations and copyright payments doesn't make good business sense when it isn't necessary.

If all aspects of Solar Man of The Atom (minus the name and suit) are available to use in a new title, that would be fine by me. After all, the much loved A&O made no mention of Solar or a red suit yet it represents the best of what we love about Valiant. Didn't the first mention or appearance of "Solar" occur around page 9 or 10 of issue #2? So that means the best 110+ pages of the title made no mention of a hero in red spandex. Whats wrong with the new title doing the same?

Since Seleski is the core valiant character, why not just call his new title valiant or valiant COMICS?

[ManofTheAtom]

Since the primary concern for VE will be to not lose money, they will be interested in keeping their costs down. Spending money on negotiations and copyright payments doesn't make good business sense when it isn't necessary.

If all aspects of Solar Man of The Atom (minus the name and suit) are available to use in a new title, that would be fine by me. After all, the much loved A&O made no mention of Solar or a red suit yet it represents the best of what we love about VALIANT. Didn't the first mention or appearance of "Solar" occur around page 9 or 10 of issue #2? So that means the best 110+ pages of the title made no mention of a hero in red spandex. Whats wrong with the new title doing the same?

Since Seleski is the core VALIANT character, why not just call his new title VALIANT or VALIANT COMICS?

One of VE's concerns is also to make money and expose people to the original material, but to do that they need to acquire the license to Solar, Magnus, and Turok from Random House as without it they can't touch Unity.

In fact I still don't understand why people of the "pick after Unity/what if Phil can't be Solar" camp haven't bothered to notice this before.

Without Solar, Magnus, and Turok VE can't touch Unity without making massive edits across all 18 chapters.

[Elveen]

In Unity 2000 Shooter had no problem with ageing the characters and accepting that they had different experiences in the seven years he'd been gone.

If he does go back I wonder if he'll approach it in the same way.

good question......?????????????

[Second_Death]

The question for VE will be.....is the risk worth the hypothetical reward?

[Second_Death]

In Unity 2000 Shooter had no problem with ageing the characters and accepting that they had different experiences in the seven years he'd been gone.

If he does go back I wonder if he'll approach it in the same way.

good question......?????????????

Very good question.

[ManofTheAtom]

The question for VE will be.....is the risk worth the hypothetical reward?

What risk exactly? Spending money on the license for the characters?

Of course it would be, Solar and Magnus have become synonymous with VALIANT. And after all, the entire universe was built around them.

Unity, for example, was built around both of their origins.

[SiBill]

Bring in Joe Q and launch "THE ULTIMATE VALIANT". Who says Phil can't be a 16 year old skater dude punk rocker from queens? And Shadowman could be a reggae star from Jamaica smoking some righteous chronic and causing mayhem.... And Archer can be an old lech (like 100 year old Ultimate Wolverine scoping out a high school age Jean Gray). Hey it worked for Marvel (and Smallville for that matter - old Lex (and the teacher/coach) bedding slutty 17 year old Lana)..... And who knew Lois slept with the whole Justice League before she married Supes - Damn - I digressed - Sorry I long for the good old Pre-Unity days......