ATTN: those having difficulty getting the new Harby HC

[daydreamscomics]

i would be more than happy to provide them for you.

if your local comic shop isn't willing to work with valiant to get these into your hands, they don't really deserve your business. it takes minimal effort to get the order placed, yet most shop owners are too lazy to do so.

i'm still offering them for $25.00 postage paid in the U.S. i will ship overseas, postage will just be a bit more.

LET ME KNOW IF YOU NEED ANYTHING.

i have faith that VEI will get back on track. it's been 10 years since new valiant stuff has been released, what's the problem with waiting another week or two? think about everything VEI has put into this. cut them some slack...

ONE THING TO THINK ABOUT:

if dynamic forces/dynamite entertainment is behind VIP, doesn't it make sense that if they put pressure on Diamond to not ship these, that Diamond would crack? Think about the amount of money DF/DE spend advertising in Previews...and what Diamond would potentially fear to lose if DF/DE were to no longer solicite items in Previews? in my mind there is no way in hell they wouldn't continue soliciting, but it makes you think...

[Cyberstrike]

if dynamic forces/dynamite entertainment is behind VIP, doesn't it make sense that if they put pressure on Diamond to not ship these, that Diamond would crack? Think about the amount of money DF/DE spend advertising in Previews...and what Diamond would potentially fear to lose if DF/DE were to no longer solicit items in Previews? in my mind there is no way in hell they wouldn't continue soliciting, but it makes you think...

I won't sit here and say "no, you're wrong" but I find that idea highly
improbable, not impossible, but improbable. The more logical reason is that Diamond and VEI just didn't get enough orders for Harbinger: The Beginning to make Diamond carry it.

While the whole VEI/VIP legal dispute might be a factor I just don't see it as a big factor.

VEI probably figured this might happen and thus they sent comic book stores info on Valiant Retailer Direct program to make sure that people who ordered the book got it.

[ManofTheAtom]

if dynamic forces/dynamite entertainment is behind VIP, doesn't it make sense that if they put pressure on Diamond to not ship these, that Diamond would crack? Think about the amount of money DF/DE spend advertising in Previews...and what Diamond would potentially fear to lose if DF/DE were to no longer solicit items in Previews? in my mind there is no way in hell they wouldn't continue soliciting, but it makes you think...

I won't sit here and say "no, you're wrong" but I find that idea highly
improbable, not impossible, but improbable. The more logical reason is that Diamond and VEI just didn't get enough orders for Harbinger: The Beginning to make Diamond carry it.

While the whole VEI/VIP legal dispute might be a factor I just don't see it as a big factor.

VEI probably figured this might happen and thus they sent comic book stores info on Valiant Retailer Direct program to make sure that people who ordered the book got it.

That is possible.

A while ago Diamond did institute a new minimum cut off point of how much a publisher needs to sell for them to distribute them.

That's what caused Claypool to leave Diamond.

[muzzsucker]

if dynamic forces/dynamite entertainment is behind VIP, doesn't it make sense that if they put pressure on Diamond to not ship these, that Diamond would crack? Think about the amount of money DF/DE spend advertising in Previews...and what Diamond would potentially fear to lose if DF/DE were to no longer solicit items in Previews? in my mind there is no way in hell they wouldn't continue soliciting, but it makes you think...

I won't sit here and say "no, you're wrong" but I find that idea highly
improbable, not impossible, but improbable. The more logical reason is that Diamond and VEI just didn't get enough orders for Harbinger: The Beginning to make Diamond carry it.

While the whole VEI/VIP legal dispute might be a factor I just don't see it as a big factor.

VEI probably figured this might happen and thus they sent comic book stores info on Valiant Retailer Direct program to make sure that people who ordered the book got it.

Didn't a few hundred copies sell at Chicago? That number alone would be enough for Diamond to carry the book and the people at Chicago said the book was flying off the tables. I don't think demand for this HC is the problem. I bet this board alone could get the book past the Diamond limit.

[daydreamscomics]

The more logical reason is that Diamond and VEI just didn't get enough orders for Harbinger: The Beginning to make Diamond carry it.

the problem with this line of thinking (not to say it's wrong) is that:

1) diamond made the decision LESS THAN A WEEK prior to the release date

2) orders for this book were due almost a month ago. if they didn't have inital orders to meet quota, they would have known well before now. why drop the bomb now?

3) we have comics come in from time to time that HAVE NO CHANCE IN HELL of getting more orders than this hardcover. Valiant is known. There's no way it's going to get outordered by 90% of the smaller press stuff out there (and that's no diss to small press stuff)

[muzzsucker]

(and that's no diss to small press stuff)

Its not the size of your press...its how you use it

[Rubiks-Q-Bert]

I think I am going to buckle and go ahead and get one of these. I had not initially planned on it but what the hell. PM me with any info I need. It will be sometime in the first week of Sep before I can get you paid though.

[wrunow]

I would think with Diamond's dominance of the distribution channels they have to be very careful as far as following certain conditions and rules as far as distributing books or they would entertain "restriction of trade" lawsuits if they began playing games.

[greg]

It seems likely to me that Diamond may have an "err on the side of caution" policy
when it relates to situations such as Harbinger copyrights and Harbinger trademarks.

Rather than determine what is correct, they may simply say... "we don't want to get involved".

[thePike]

It seems likely to me that Diamond may have an "err on the side of caution" policy
when it relates to situations such as Harbinger copyrights and Harbinger trademarks.

Rather than determine what is correct, they may simply say... "we don't want to get involved".

I'm not a law student (but I am a cop!); but wouldn't any court ruling for VEI/VIP kinda fall into that whole Ex Post Facto law where it's not illegal until after the courst say it is?

[Daniel Jackson]

If that's the case you would think they could made that decision a lot sooner. The legal battle has been going on for quite some time now.

[greg]

"We don't get involved" is a safe policy... it's likely that Diamond has that stance.

With regard to why it was so late in the process being decided just this past weekend,
I would assume it has something to do with an active lawyer.

[Daniel Jackson]

"We don't get involved" is a safe policy... it's likely that Diamond has that stance.

With regard to why it was so late in the process being decided just this past weekend,
I would assume it has something to do with an active lawyer.

It figures.

[thePike]

"We don't get involved" is a safe policy... it's likely that Diamond has that stance.

With regard to why it was so late in the process being decided just this past weekend,
I would assume it has something to do with an active lawyer.

Are you speculating Greg, or you going on other outside inforamtion that shall remain nameless?

[greg]

"We don't get involved" is a safe policy... it's likely that Diamond has that stance.

With regard to why it was so late in the process being decided just this past weekend,
I would assume it has something to do with an active lawyer.

Are you speculating Greg, or you going on other outside inforamtion that shall remain nameless?

There are a variety of reasons for my speculation.

[thePike]

Good enough for me

[myron]

I just e-mailed Neil (with the Valiant tattoo) to see what he's gonna do... ...hopefully it won't be tough for them to go through valiant direct...

[magnusr]

I just e-mailed Neil (with the Valiant tattoo) to see what he's gonna do... ...hopefully it won't be tough for them to go through valiant direct...

That's the right spirit. We gotta show our shops that we're serious about buying the books.

And if they're less serious than we are, then we still have Zach.

/Magnus

[VHMMV]

This whole situation isn't rocket science. Obviously, VIP threatened some sort of legal action against Diamond if they carried the Harbinger hardcover, and timed it to do the most damage. The same thing happened back in the '80s with Deluxe's T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents series when it was hijacked by David Singer. Singer ignored the law, and the way he was stopped was by shutting down his distribution. Today, with only one major distributor, shutting down distribution is a lot easier than it used to be.

Another example: Marvel tried to stop Diamond from shipping Warriors of Plasm # 1, but Jim Shooter had it arranged so that it was tied in with shipments of Marvel's own product (put in the same boxes, put in the same trucks, I don't know - something happened somewhere), the end result being that the shipping from the two publishers was intertwined, so if Marvel stopped Plasm, it stopped its own product too. That didn't give Marvel any options, so they let it slide. To be honest, stopping the other side at the last minute is a long-standing tradition in this industry.

Look, I know the way people here feel about VIP, but here are the facts:

1) Acclaim let the Harbinger trademark lapse

2) the Harbinger trademark was reset at zero, as in everybody and his dog had equal legal opportunity to claim it. It was like old furniture put out on the street - it was up for grabs. The fact that Valiant once published it didn't matter because the previous owner does not automatically get prior claim in such a scenario. When a trademark lapeses, it is as though no one has ever had it before. Everything that happened before that point is no longer relevant. That's how trademarks are designed - so that one party cannot "squat" on them forever. It's a reboot, it's a restart... call it what you will, but it's a whole new day from that point on. The past doesn't matter anymore.

3) VIP was first in line with their "intent to use" filing.

It's like standing in line to buy tickets for a concert - if you leave the line, you lose your spot. It doesn't matter how long you were standing in line beforehand, once that continuous streak is broken, everything goes back to zero, and the guy standing in line behind you is now ahead of you. Continuous, folks. As in, all the time you put in is now wasted.

4) VEI have contested VIPs "intent to use" filings on the grounds that the trademarks belong with copyrights which are still valid, and were purchased at auction by VEI.

So, to put it all in a nutshell...

Everyone knows that what's going on now between VEI and VIP is a high stakes poker game. VEI is not ceding any ground, because why would they? What possible benefit can they derive from agreeing with VIP on anything? However, if VIP decides to go the distance and produce new material under a bunch of names which, in a previous life, were associated with other characters, then that's it - the trademarks are theirs, whether people here like it or not. That's how it works. VIP's claims are not invalid because people here like the old Valiant better. VIP's claims are not invalid because people here have an emotional attachment to the old Valiant universe. VIP's claims are very valid, and they are defending them to the fullest letter of the law. That may be counterproductive to what the people here might want, and it might not make VIP any friends, but that's not the point. They picked somebody else's old furniture up off the street, and it's theirs now. It might not be practical for them to do anything with that furniture, but again, that's not the point. They took it home, and what they do with it now is up to them.

[magnusr]

This whole situation isn't rocket science. Obviously, VIP threatened some sort of legal action against Diamond if they carried the Harbinger hardcover, and timed it to do the most damage.

Very interesting post. Some thoughts. VIP have yet not taken any real risks. So how come this is not a risk? In the end this must be Diamond's risk. VEI's press release said it was a mutual decision. Must be that the contract between Diamond and VEI allows for this and that VIP stands no risk.

The past doesn't matter anymore.

This is the gist of it, but there's more. Trademarks are intended to protect the public. Therefore public recognition can in certain cases be a factor. Especially if it can be shown that VIP were aware of the rerelease plans. You can't register someone else's established trademark, even if that one is not registered.

4) VEI have contested VIPs "intent to use" filings on the grounds that the trademarks belong with copyrights which are still valid, and were purchased at auction by VEI.

As I understand it, the opposition is based on the use of the trademark itself, not the copyrights and regardless of whether the registration of the trademark remained active. Especially as it has been concluded in similar cases that financial trouble and or a bankruptcy is a valid reason for periods of non-use.

Everyone knows that what's going on now between VEI and VIP is a high stakes poker game....However, if VIP decides to go the distance and produce new material under a bunch of names which, in a previous life, were associated with other characters, then that's it - the trademarks are theirs.

That's for the USPTO to decide. VEI has a very strong case from a strictly legal point of view.

They picked somebody else's old furniture up off the street, and it's theirs now.

Well, if comparing to a car, it was the registration plate that was on the street to pick up. The car itself was still in the garage that VEI bought. The question for the trademark office to decide is whether the car had been used enough for the public to recognice it as VEI's car, with a bit of extra slack added for the fact that Acclaim couldn't afford gas for a long period.

Yeah I know, not a perfect analogy. I think your main point is that our feelings of fair or not fair doesn't come in to play. Many good things to think about in your post. I agree it is just the law that matters. My point is that I believe that VEI has the strongest case strictly legally.

/Magnus

[k_c_collectibles]

This whole situation isn't rocket science. Obviously, VIP threatened some sort of legal action against Diamond if they carried the Harbinger hardcover, and timed it to do the most damage.

Very interesting post. Some thoughts. VIP have yet not taken any real risks. So how come this is not a risk? In the end this must be Diamond's risk. VEI's press release said it was a mutual decision. Must be that the contract between Diamond and VEI allows for this and that VIP stands no risk.

The past doesn't matter anymore.

This is the gist of it, but there's more. Trademarks are intended to protect the public. Therefore public recognition can in certain cases be a factor. Especially if it can be shown that VIP were aware of the rerelease plans. You can't register someone else's established trademark, even if that one is not registered.

4) VEI have contested VIPs "intent to use" filings on the grounds that the trademarks belong with copyrights which are still valid, and were purchased at auction by VEI.

As I understand it, the opposition is based on the use of the trademark itself, not the copyrights and regardless of whether the registration of the trademark remained active. Especially as it has been concluded in similar cases that financial trouble and or a bankruptcy is a valid reason for periods of non-use.

Everyone knows that what's going on now between VEI and VIP is a high stakes poker game....However, if VIP decides to go the distance and produce new material under a bunch of names which, in a previous life, were associated with other characters, then that's it - the trademarks are theirs.

That's for the USPTO to decide. VEI has a very strong case from a strictly legal point of view.

They picked somebody else's old furniture up off the street, and it's theirs now.

Well, if comparing to a car, it was the registration plate that was on the street to pick up. The car itself was still in the garage that VEI bought. The question for the trademark office to decide is whether the car had been used enough for the public to recognice it as VEI's car, with a bit of extra slack added for the fact that Acclaim couldn't afford gas for a long period.

Yeah I know, not a perfect analogy. I think your main point is that our feelings of fair or not fair doesn't come in to play. Many good things to think about in your post. I agree it is just the law that matters. My point is that I believe that VEI has the strongest case strictly legally.

/Magnus

Many good points and counter=points guys.

Chris

[wrunow]

This whole situation isn't rocket science. Obviously, VIP threatened some sort of legal action against Diamond if they carried the Harbinger hardcover, and timed it to do the most damage. The same thing happened back in the '80s with Deluxe's T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents series when it was hijacked by David Singer. Singer ignored the law, and the way he was stopped was by shutting down his distribution. Today, with only one major distributor, shutting down distribution is a lot easier than it used to be.

Another example: Marvel tried to stop Diamond from shipping Warriors of Plasm # 1, but Jim Shooter had it arranged so that it was tied in with shipments of Marvel's own product (put in the same boxes, put in the same trucks, I don't know - something happened somewhere), the end result being that the shipping from the two publishers was intertwined, so if Marvel stopped Plasm, it stopped its own product too. That didn't give Marvel any options, so they let it slide. To be honest, stopping the other side at the last minute is a long-standing tradition in this industry.

Look, I know the way people here feel about VIP, but here are the facts:

1) Acclaim let the Harbinger trademark lapse

2) the Harbinger trademark was reset at zero, as in everybody and his dog had equal legal opportunity to claim it. It was like old furniture put out on the street - it was up for grabs. The fact that Valiant once published it didn't matter because the previous owner does not automatically get prior claim in such a scenario. When a trademark lapeses, it is as though no one has ever had it before. Everything that happened before that point is no longer relevant. That's how trademarks are designed - so that one party cannot "squat" on them forever. It's a reboot, it's a restart... call it what you will, but it's a whole new day from that point on. The past doesn't matter anymore.

3) VIP was first in line with their "intent to use" filing.

It's like standing in line to buy tickets for a concert - if you leave the line, you lose your spot. It doesn't matter how long you were standing in line beforehand, once that continuous streak is broken, everything goes back to zero, and the guy standing in line behind you is now ahead of you. Continuous, folks. As in, all the time you put in is now wasted.

4) VEI have contested VIPs "intent to use" filings on the grounds that the trademarks belong with copyrights which are still valid, and were purchased at auction by VEI.

So, to put it all in a nutshell...

Everyone knows that what's going on now between VEI and VIP is a high stakes poker game. VEI is not ceding any ground, because why would they? What possible benefit can they derive from agreeing with VIP on anything? However, if VIP decides to go the distance and produce new material under a bunch of names which, in a previous life, were associated with other characters, then that's it - the trademarks are theirs, whether people here like it or not. That's how it works. VIP's claims are not invalid because people here like the old Valiant better. VIP's claims are not invalid because people here have an emotional attachment to the old Valiant universe. VIP's claims are very valid, and they are defending them to the fullest letter of the law. That may be counterproductive to what the people here might want, and it might not make VIP any friends, but that's not the point. They picked somebody else's old furniture up off the street, and it's theirs now. It might not be practical for them to do anything with that furniture, but again, that's not the point. They took it home, and what they do with it now is up to them.

I hate to say it, but this may be the case. Many of you know I strongly favor the VEI guys and admire what they have done and are trying to do, but, maybe the way out of this situation is to call VIP's bluff and let them try to publish something. My money says they don't really want to publish anything, and if they are forced to to protect the TM's, and this may not be the way it works, their product will probably be crap and they will have major egg on their face. At that point, they will have ruined there own TM's and it really won't matter much. I guess if they put out a good product that the comic community will support, then, more power to them, but, based on the quality of their "ashcan" I don't think VEI is too worried after having the support of Hall and Shooter, not to mention other quality pro's linked to their own work.

In a free market the consumers will have to choose, do you think VIP wants this feud to go that far? I don't. I think they want to negotiate an agreement for cash. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

I am ready to buy and support a comic titled "The Foundation" with stories about Sting and Harada. I think that's what we are waiting for, even if it's not called "Harbinger". Let's support the content we love and not the opportunist money grab that is probably the real intention of VIP. I mean, if they had real talent, and real characters, they wouldn't need the names of somebody else's comic books. The whole thing is just sort of lame when you think of it

In my opinion, if it came down to paying off VIP for the TM's or spending several thousands of dollars (I have no clue how much the TM's are really worth) to acquire the services of top VALIANT style talent such as Shooter, Layton, and Hall, I say spend it on the talent and to upgrade the quality of the product even more.



I don't think any of the 1000 or so (if that many) fans here on the board are interested in a new Bloodshot or Visitor comic character, and I don't think any of us will support such an effort, as a matter of fact the situation will be just the opposite.

See you in NY!

[StarBrand]

I certainly miss the days when Diamond had competition...

[myron]

I certainly miss the days when Diamond had competition...

here, here...

[Zaphod]

Well, if comparing to a car, it was the registration plate that was on the street to pick up. The car itself was still in the garage that VEI bought. The question for the trademark office to decide is whether the car had been used enough for the public to recognice it as VEI's car, with a bit of extra slack added for the fact that Acclaim couldn't afford gas for a long period.

Yeah I know, not a perfect analogy. I think your main point is that our feelings of fair or not fair doesn't come in to play. Many good things to think about in your post. I agree it is just the law that matters. My point is that I believe that VEI has the strongest case strictly legally.

/Magnus

In this analogy, VEI can keep the car, wash it and show it off to their friends. But if the road is considered "printing and selling new comics" then they just can't drive the car on the road with that same registration plate. Lets say that registration plate included the right to call the car a Porsche and it is a Porsche. They just can't call it that anymore.

Except...



Now if that is enough to get past Marvels lawyers, I wonder if it would still work.