Is Rai 0 still relevant ???

[Chiclo]

Rai 0 is a fairly unique book. There is nothing like it offered by either DC or Marvel.

Rai 0 was certainly not a secret book handed out quietly to the elite Valiant fans. There were according to the price guide 135,000 of them floating around the country offered up for sale freely in comic shops across the USA.

If Rai 0 had had an energizing effect on the Valiant comic buyer, had it made the average comic collector more interested in Valiant books and helped their sales, don't you think that either DC or Marvel would have stolen the idea and done something similar? It was a gamble and I have to agree that it turned out poorly and did not help Valiant in the long run.

It was not the biggest factor in the decline of Valiant. I don't think anyone would argue that a significant change in the management which trickled down to a significant change in the writing of the Valiant books was the biggest factor in the fall of Valiant. Was there more to it than just that? Were there smaller factors that didn't help? Could Rai 0 have been one of these factors? Across the board, I'd have to say yes at this point.

[xodacia81]

There have been stories where foreshadowing works, but laying out the entire plot is rather a different matter. One of my favorite tv series, Babylon 5, thrived on foreshadowing and glimpses of the future. However, unlike Rai # 0, the glimpses you saw were the conclusions of stories that you were already involved in, rather than directions for those which had not yet begun. When you see two characters strangle each other, this is something known from the start of the series, rather than something hanging over it from midway through. Rai #0 took away a lot of the unexpected, the thrill of discovery. VALIANT began to look a bit "done" instead of in the proccess of being built. I liked the book, but I understand the issues others have with it, as I share some of them.

[mavros]

Didn't they attempt to address this situation in Shadowman?

I remember a story where Jack does something insane, Nettie asks him what was he thinking, he responds that he did that because he knew he wouldn't die because of what he heard during Unity, and Nettie, in essence, says that things can change.

Overall, finding out how the characters died didn't take away the overall suspense of the story... it's a ficitional story*, you know they can find some way around it to add drama in some way...

*edited to remove phrasing of a volatile nature.

[superman-prime]

Rai 0 was awesome in my book as it was unique in its time, nothing else had been done quite like it

[ManofTheAtom]

Didn't they attempt to address this situation in Shadowman?

I remember a story where Jack does something insane, Nettie asks him what was he thinking, he responds that he did that because he knew he wouldn't die because of what he heard during Unity, and Nettie, in essence, says that things can change.

Overall, finding out how the characters died didn't take away the overall suspense of the story... it's a ficitional story*, you know they can find some way around it to add drama in some way...

*edited to remove phrasing of a volatile nature.

In the Shadowman series, it was knowing that he could not die until 1999 that saved Jack from dying many times.

On one occasion, Darque turned him into a BloodRunner, and it was the knowledge that he could not die until 1999 that saved him from it.

[jcdenton]

I asked you earlier if not knowing how Ninjak, Takao, or other of the characters that were not in Rai #0 were going to die made their comics better and you dismissed it as irrelevant, when it's right on point.

If not knowing how the characters are going to die automatically makes the stories better,what you and greg are arguing is that Ninjak's 26 issues and Takao's 12 are better than XO's 60's for thier ommision in Rai #0.

It seems pretty clear that there are two different meanings of "better" being used here which is leading to significant misunderstanding.

The sentiment expressed by many on this thread seems to be that the Valiant titles referenced in Rai 0 (and the VH1 universe overall) would have been better (had Rai 0 not existed) than they actually turned out to be (since, obviously, Rai 0 did exist).

However, the meaning of "better" in your 2nd sentence that I quoted above, which you seem to be attributing to Greg, Siren, and others, is very, very different. Not knowing how Ninjak is going to die may very well make the Ninjak series "better" than the Ninjak series would have been otherwise; it would NOT make it AUTOMATICALLY better than every other series in which we DO know how (or when) the main character is eventually going to die.

In other words, given the premise that Shadowman without Rai 0 would have been better than Shadowman with Rai 0, that does NOT necessarily mean that Shadowman with Rai 0 was inferior to Ninjak (or any other title not referenced by Rai 0).

As far as I'm aware, nobody on this thread (except yourself) has used the term "better" in the 2nd way, or expressed that sentiment in any way whatsoever. But I suspect this is where a great deal of the misunderstanding is coming from on this thread.

Incidentally, my opinion and thoughts on Rai 0 are actually closest to MoTA's on this thread thus far, and I don't personally believe it contributed significantly to the downfall of Valiant. Honestly, Rai 0 probably marked the single high point of my interest in Valiant (and comic collecting in general). Then it was all downhill from there...

[jcdenton]

BTW, with regard to Secret Weapons #1 vs Rai 0, which (as discussed at-length above) I suppose is the classic example of where the events did not actually occur in the manner in which we were led to believe, in my opinion Valiant "cheated" a bit with this particular scene.

I'll quote Rokland Tate directly from Rai 0:

Geoff... sought the aid of his friend Aric. The barbarian-born hero was distracted by other concerns, however. Aric was having too much fun to notice the change in Geoff. The responsibility for the fate of the world was starting to weigh heavy on his small shoulders. Still, Geoff knew the danger that was coming had to be met.

Quite frankly, it doesn't make sense that a Geomancer would be talking about this event two thousand years later and describing it in the way he did unless Aric turned Geoff down.

Even if we assume that the yellow text is incomplete--in other words, that we are not even getting the complete words that Tate is saying to Takao, and he does go on to tell Takao what really happened in this scene (even though we don't "hear" it)--we would still have to believe that Tate basically decided to waste Takao's time by describing how Aric was initially reluctant and had to be convinced by Geoff to help him, which has absolutely no relevance to the overall "story" and is frankly quite silly.

And even IF we make that assumption, Tate's line immediately afterwards is the real clincher:

"So he got help wherever he could find it."

Which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever unless Aric did in fact, as depicted by Rai 0, turn down Geoff's request for help.

[ManofTheAtom]

I don't want to know the end fates of the main characters on HEROES right now and then try to enjoy the journey up to that point . . . right now, anything can happen on that show . . . a Rai 0 episode would kill that series . .

I just saw the third episode of the second season of Heroes, in which Hiro helps Kenzei become the hero that he is destined to be.

Using Heroes as an analogy, Hiro is to Kenzei what Rokkie is to Jack.

Just like for Hiro Kenzei is destined to become a legendary hero, for Rokkie Jack is destined to die.

Did knowing that Kenzei is supposed to become a hero change your enjoyment of the first three episodes of the series?

[ManofTheAtom]

BTW, with regard to Secret Weapons #1 vs Rai 0, which (as discussed at-length above) I suppose is the classic example of where the events did not actually occur in the manner in which we were led to believe, in my opinion Valiant "cheated" a bit with this particular scene.

I'll quote Rokland Tate directly from Rai 0:

Geoff... sought the aid of his friend Aric. The barbarian-born hero was distracted by other concerns, however. Aric was having too much fun to notice the change in Geoff. The responsibility for the fate of the world was starting to weigh heavy on his small shoulders. Still, Geoff knew the danger that was coming had to be met.

Quite frankly, it doesn't make sense that a Geomancer would be talking about this event two thousand years later and describing it in the way he did unless Aric turned Geoff down.

Even if we assume that the yellow text is incomplete--in other words, that we are not even getting the complete words that Tate is saying to Takao, and he does go on to tell Takao what really happened in this scene (even though we don't "hear" it)--we would still have to believe that Tate basically decided to waste Takao's time by describing how Aric was initially reluctant and had to be convinced by Geoff to help him, which has absolutely no relevance to the overall "story" and is frankly quite silly.

And even IF we make that assumption, Tate's line immediately afterwards is the real clincher:

"So he got help wherever he could find it."

Which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever unless Aric did in fact, as depicted by Rai 0, turn down Geoff's request for help.

Let's not forget that the text in Rai #0 was not necessarily what Shooter intended to go with the images.

[siren3-4]

I don't want to know the end fates of the main characters on HEROES right now and then try to enjoy the journey up to that point . . . right now, anything can happen on that show . . . a Rai 0 episode would kill that series . .

I just saw the third episode of the second season of Heroes, in which Hiro helps Kenzei become the hero that he is destined to be.

Using Heroes as an analogy, Hiro is to Kenzei what Rokkie is to Jack.

Just like for Hiro Kenzei is destined to become a legendary hero, for Rokkie Jack is destined to die.

Did knowing that Kenzei is supposed to become a hero change your enjoyment of the first three episodes of the series?

Knowing "somewhat" what is going to happen to one character doesn't bother me . . .

The shadowman is destined to die in 1999 story doesn't bother me . . .

If they let me know the fates of all the main heroes on the show ahead of time . . . it would bother me, and kill the series because it would take away from the story . . . It really can't get any clearer than that . . .

[jcdenton]

BTW, on a somewhat related note, this thread made me go back and re-read Rai 0 for what might just be the 100th time, and I can't believe I was mis-reading the HARD Corps evacuation all these years.

I always thought their initial reason for leaving was because they were losing the war so badly and had no choice but to flee, but then they refused to answer all transmissions and continued on their journey because they simply no longer wanted to live on Earth anyway. Which I always thought was a pretty powerful statement about how horrible living on Earth must have been at the time.

Only during this last reading did I realize that they simply had no way of knowing whether it was really true that the resistance had defeated Harada, or if it was all a trap to lure them back and destroy them. And obviously, the idea that "Harada" was still alive and in control, but it wasn't really Harada but John Stanchek inside Harada, must have been extremely hard for them to believe to say the least.

So even though they had already won the war, the HARD Corps had no choice but to continue on their way, never to return to the Earth again. Which is pretty tragic when you think about it. Almost as tragic as the fact that it resulted in the Psi Lords series getting created.

[ManofTheAtom]

BTW, on a somewhat related note, this thread made me go back and re-read Rai 0 for what might just be the 100th time, and I can't believe I was mis-reading the HARD Corps evacuation all these years.

I always thought their initial reason for leaving was because they were losing the war so badly and had no choice but to flee, but then they refused to answer all transmissions and continued on their journey because they simply no longer wanted to live on Earth anyway. Which I always thought was a pretty powerful statement about how horrible living on Earth must have been at the time.

Only during this last reading did I realize that they simply had no way of knowing whether it was really true that the resistance had defeated Harada, or if it was all a trap to lure them back and destroy them. And obviously, the idea that "Harada" was still alive and in control, but it wasn't really Harada but John Stanchek inside Harada, must have been extremely hard for them to believe to say the least.

So even though they had already won the war, the HARD Corps had no choice but to continue on their way, never to return to the Earth again. Which is pretty tragic when you think about it. Almost as tragic as the fact that it resulted in the Psi Lords series getting created.

Interesting. I just noticed that

[jcdenton]

Interesting. I just noticed that

Good to hear I'm not the only one who was reading it that way all these years.

Of course ironically, in most cases given such a scenario, it would be possible to convince the people who are evacuating to come back; just get the right people on the phone to talk to them and convince them.

But when you've got someone in charge who can control AND read minds, you can't exactly use the tried and true method of "tell me something only you and I would know" to convince them to return...

[jcdenton]

On the subject of the "fallibility/infallibility" of Rai 0, I think it ultimately comes down to a very simple question: How reliable are the words of a Geomancer? After all, that's what exactly Rai 0 *IS*. It's just a recounting of historical events being told by a Geomancer (Rokland Tate) to the new Rai.

If it can be said for a fact that Geomancers are infallible, then you can logically conclude that everything in Rai 0 is an accurate (although obviously incomplete) description of events as they actually occurred.

And to say that the events in Rai 0 are malleable or possibly even inaccurate, it would need to be supported by evidence that Geomancers do, on at least some occasions, provide inaccurate information (whether willingly or accidentally).

To the best of my recollection, every single issue dealing with Geomancers that I ever read was very clear: Geomancers are basically NEVER wrong. I recall Gilad basically saying as such on several occasions in early EW issues, and possibly throughout Unity. And to my knowledge, I am not aware of anything in VH1 continuity which shows evidence of a Geomancer providing information which was not accurate (although I will admit that I have not read every issue of the most likely source of such evidence if it exists, i.e. the Geomancer series).

Of course, as I mentioned above, Rokland Tate does indeed describe Geoff's encounter with Aric in a way which does not make sense when you consider how the events actually occurred. Was he actually mistaken? Evidence suggests that this is extremely unlikely, if not virtually impossible. Was he intentionally misleading Rai? I see no reason whatsoever that he would have.

I'm more inclined to think this was more a mistake on the part of the writers, and possibly even an intentional disregard for the original intent of the person who wrote that part in Rai 0 (Shooter)?

This is very speculative, but I can imagine that whoever wrote that scene originally did not intend for XO to become part of the Secret Weapons team, only to be "overruled" later simply due to the fact that he was the most marketable Valiant commodity at the time (in much the same way that Spiderman and Wolverine somehow manage to make their way onto every superhero team at some point or another, to such a ridiculous extent that it's become a running joke within the Marvel Universe).

Of course, the fallibility of Rokland Tate (if not necessarily Geomancers in general) could hypothetically be explained even with no pre-existing evidence; it could simply be written that Tate's Geomancer training was flawed/incomplete, or that he had problems (psychological, medical, etc) which disrupted his Geomancer abilities, or any number of other explanations. In other words, as long as you can explain the possibility that Rokland Tate's words were not infallible, you can suddenly render everything in Rai 0 malleable. That would be pretty cheap and would *SQUEE* me off personally, but it's certainly a possibility.

[jk20000]

On the subject of the "fallibility/infallibility" of Rai 0, I think it ultimately comes down to a very simple question: How reliable are the words of a Geomancer? After all, that's what exactly Rai 0 *IS*. It's just a recounting of historical events being told by a Geomancer (Rokland Tate) to the new Rai.

If it can be said for a fact that Geomancers are infallible, then you can logically conclude that everything in Rai 0 is an accurate (although obviously incomplete) description of events as they actually occurred.

And to say that the events in Rai 0 are malleable or possibly even inaccurate, it would need to be supported by evidence that Geomancers do, on at least some occasions, provide inaccurate information (whether willingly or accidentally).

To the best of my recollection, every single issue dealing with Geomancers that I ever read was very clear: Geomancers are basically NEVER wrong. I recall Gilad basically saying as such on several occasions in early EW issues, and possibly throughout Unity. And to my knowledge, I am not aware of anything in VH1 continuity which shows evidence of a Geomancer providing information which was not accurate (although I will admit that I have not read every issue of the most likely source of such evidence if it exists, i.e. the Geomancer series).

Of course, as I mentioned above, Rokland Tate does indeed describe Geoff's encounter with Aric in a way which does not make sense when you consider how the events actually occurred. Was he actually mistaken? Evidence suggests that this is extremely unlikely, if not virtually impossible. Was he intentionally misleading Rai? I see no reason whatsoever that he would have.

I'm more inclined to think this was more a mistake on the part of the writers, and possibly even an intentional disregard for the original intent of the person who wrote that part in Rai 0 (Shooter)?

This is very speculative, but I can imagine that whoever wrote that scene originally did not intend for XO to become part of the Secret Weapons team, only to be "overruled" later simply due to the fact that he was the most marketable Valiant commodity at the time (in much the same way that Spiderman and Wolverine somehow manage to make their way onto every superhero team at some point or another, to such a ridiculous extent that it's become a running joke within the Marvel Universe).

Of course, the fallibility of Rokland Tate (if not necessarily Geomancers in general) could hypothetically be explained even with no pre-existing evidence; it could simply be written that Tate's Geomancer training was flawed/incomplete, or that he had problems (psychological, medical, etc) which disrupted his Geomancer abilities, or any number of other explanations. In other words, as long as you can explain the possibility that Rokland Tate's words were not infallible, you can suddenly render everything in Rai 0 malleable. That would be pretty cheap and would *SQUEE* me off personally, but it's certainly a possibility.

Whoa whoa whoa. Geomancers are not the be all end all of knowledge. Remember the crazy geomancer that came after Gilad? How about Eternal Warrior #1 where Gilad says that every battle is made out to be the big end of the world one, and now he just thinks the Earth and the geomancers are paranoid. and wasnt there some story where the geomancer said something like i knew this was going to happen to you the whole time but i couldnt tell you because you had to go through it yourself...maybe not...but if there was that means they knowingly distort for that they believe is the greater good...a very non black and white personality trait. and isnt valiant about grays?

[jcdenton]

"How about Eternal Warrior #1 where Gilad says that every battle is made out to be the big end of the world one, and now he just thinks the Earth and the geomancers are paranoid."

That's true, but my interpretation was that Unity essentially vindicated those geomancers, and proved that they were *not* being paranoid--just maybe a little premature.

"wasnt there some story where the geomancer said something like i knew this was going to happen to you the whole time but i couldnt tell you because you had to go through it yourself..."

Hmmm... now that you mention it, that does sound vaguely familiar. Anyone know which issue(s) this was?

"but if there was that means they knowingly distort for that they believe is the greater good..."

Well, of course even if such is the case, the obvious question is why would Rokland Tate intentionally give Takao inaccurate information about events which occurred thousands of years earlier? I can't think of a reason personally...

[Soussherpa]

It is the cornerstone of the Valiant universe.

I think it was valued as high as 80 dollars at one time if I'm not mistaken.

perhaps more.


Then they got rid of Shooter.

[Daniel Jackson]

It is the cornerstone of the Valiant universe.

I think it was valued as high as 80 dollars at one time if I'm not mistaken.

perhaps more.


Then they got rid of Shooter.

I don't remember it going for much more than 20 bucks at its peak around my area.

[Soussherpa]

It is the cornerstone of the Valiant universe.

I think it was valued as high as 80 dollars at one time if I'm not mistaken.

perhaps more.


Then they got rid of Shooter.

I don't remember it going for much more than 20 bucks at its peak around my area.

I think for about a year or two after he (shooter) left. The books were selling based on how good the back issues were.

Yeah, I could be wrong but I don't think so. It was goin' for a pretty penny
and I remember it graded in Wizard at around 80 dollars.

Although I'm getting old.

[Daniel Jackson]

It is the cornerstone of the Valiant universe.

I think it was valued as high as 80 dollars at one time if I'm not mistaken.

perhaps more.


Then they got rid of Shooter.

I don't remember it going for much more than 20 bucks at its peak around my area.

I think for about a year or two after he (shooter) left. The books were selling based on how good the back issues were.

Yeah, I could be wrong but I don't think so. It was goin' for a pretty penny
and I remember it graded in Wizard at around 80 dollars.

Although I'm getting old.

I remember Rai #3 and #4 going for 80+ back in the day, but not #0. I hope you didn't have to give that kind of money for one.....

[Soussherpa]

It is the cornerstone of the Valiant universe.

I think it was valued as high as 80 dollars at one time if I'm not mistaken.

perhaps more.


Then they got rid of Shooter.

I don't remember it going for much more than 20 bucks at its peak around my area.

I think for about a year or two after he (shooter) left. The books were selling based on how good the back issues were.

Yeah, I could be wrong but I don't think so. It was goin' for a pretty penny
and I remember it graded in Wizard at around 80 dollars.

Although I'm getting old.

I remember Rai #3 and #4 going for 80+ back in the day, but not #0. I hope you didn't have to give that kind of money for one.....

I paid about 15.00- 25.00 for the two I have.

Maybe it was No 3 and 4 but I could swear it was #0.

[ManofTheAtom]

It is the cornerstone of the Valiant universe.

I think it was valued as high as 80 dollars at one time if I'm not mistaken.

perhaps more.


Then they got rid of Shooter.

I don't remember it going for much more than 20 bucks at its peak around my area.

I think for about a year or two after he (shooter) left. The books were selling based on how good the back issues were.

Yeah, I could be wrong but I don't think so. It was goin' for a pretty penny
and I remember it graded in Wizard at around 80 dollars.

Although I'm getting old.

I remember Rai #3 and #4 going for 80+ back in the day, but not #0. I hope you didn't have to give that kind of money for one.....

I paid about 15.00- 25.00 for the two I have.

Maybe it was No 3 and 4 but I could swear it was #0.

I got a Rai #0 for free at San Diego Comic Con last year helping a retailer open his stand for business, heh.

[cjv]

Well, of course even if such is the case, the obvious question is why would Rokland Tate intentionally give Takao inaccurate information about events which occurred thousands of years earlier? I can't think of a reason personally...

Well, the geomancers get their information (for the most part) from the earth, right? So you have to ask yourself - is it possible the EARTH lied to a geomancer?

Chris

[ManofTheAtom]

Well, of course even if such is the case, the obvious question is why would Rokland Tate intentionally give Takao inaccurate information about events which occurred thousands of years earlier? I can't think of a reason personally...

Well, the geomancers get their information (for the most part) from the earth, right? So you have to ask yourself - is it possible the EARTH lied to a geomancer?

Chris

81.81% of Rai #0 came true as shown, so there really is no reason to believe that the Geomancers lied.

Had an event from Rai #0 been shown and not happened as depicted in the issue, then there would be reason to think that they lied, but that didn't happen.

[Soussherpa]

It is the cornerstone of the Valiant universe.

I think it was valued as high as 80 dollars at one time if I'm not mistaken.

perhaps more.


Then they got rid of Shooter.

I don't remember it going for much more than 20 bucks at its peak around my area.

I think for about a year or two after he (shooter) left. The books were selling based on how good the back issues were.

Yeah, I could be wrong but I don't think so. It was goin' for a pretty penny
and I remember it graded in Wizard at around 80 dollars.

Although I'm getting old.

I remember Rai #3 and #4 going for 80+ back in the day, but not #0. I hope you didn't have to give that kind of money for one.....

I paid about 15.00- 25.00 for the two I have.

Maybe it was No 3 and 4 but I could swear it was #0.

I got a Rai #0 for free at San Diego Comic Con last year helping a retailer open his stand for business, heh.

I'm talking 1994 though.

Maybe 96, I'm old like I say.