Question about Grading

400yrs · Post by **400yrs** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:11 pm

Since scouring cheapo bins I noticed something about Valiants. Seems like the later issues as well as the Acclaim VH2 issues all seem to have a similar problem when they weren't bagged. I've found tons of these issues that both the front and the back covers look perfect, but there is a problem with the spine.

The problem is that only the fold part of the spine seems to have color loss. To try and describe what I mean, I guess if you took a piece of fine grain sandpaper and held it perpendicular to the book laying flat and then scraped the spine all the way up and down a few times this is what is might look like. The flat parts of the book are not affected at all. Is this a factor of the printing or from being in bargain bins? The earlier Valiants in the same bins don't seem to have this problem just the later issues.

How would one describe this when grading? I would say "spine wear," but the term is generally associated with spine creases and reading creases which this situation is obviously neither. Also, how would the grade of the books be affected by this problem or would they? Personally, there is no way I could call any book with this problem NM nor VF/NM even if the covers and interior appear NM/M. I don't remember the OS Grading Guid addressing this or I wouldn't be asking. Thanks in advance for any replies. 400

Or am I just too darn anal on grading books?

Ricomortis · Post by **Ricomortis** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:58 pm

400...

Send me ALL your Valiants and I PERSONALLY will look over each and every issue and get back to you as soon as I have a decision.

Seriously...I'd have to actually SEE what it looks like. CGC is pretty darn anal themselves.

Rico

X-O HoboJoe · Post by **X-O HoboJoe** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 10:00 pm

Hell, send them to me, and I'll tell you they're all 10.0!

What's that, you want them back?

Uhhh, nevermind.

400yrs · Post by **400yrs** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 10:04 pm

Sure I'll send them to you guys for free, but I have a handling charge of $1000 on everything I ship out.

Hey Rico, I was just kidding so you know. I know you been buying just about everything Valiant lately. No need to make me an offer!!

magnusr · Post by **magnusr** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 2:07 am

400yrs wrote:The problem is that only the fold part of the spine seems to have color loss.

I've been meaning to ask this. Most of my common books have a white spine. I guess that's what you're referring to? It seems very common. And on slabbed books the spine is invisible so no clue from those.

/Magnus

gowaltrip · Post by **gowaltrip** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:38 am

I know what you mean, its like missing color flecks on the very spine of the book, or the spine acts kinda like a crease and breaks color.

ckb · Post by **ckb** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:17 am

This is called "cracking" or flaking on the spine. CGC does consider the level of cracking in the grade, and it is largely responsible for the lack of 9.8s on some early books, like Harbinger 1.

Peter Parker · Post by **Peter Parker** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 3:11 pm

Right,... what CKB said

It's also a major factor in the difference between a "dark cover" NM/M 9.8 book & "mint" 9.9/10.0 dark cover books

400yrs · Post by **400yrs** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 4:10 pm

magnusr wrote:
400yrs wrote:The problem is that only the fold part of the spine seems to have color loss.
I've been meaning to ask this. Most of my common books have a white spine. I guess that's what you're referring to? It seems very common. And on slabbed books the spine is invisible so no clue from those.

/Magnus

That is exactly what I'm talking about!!

400yrs · Post by **400yrs** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 4:12 pm

ckb wrote:This is called "cracking" or flaking on the spine. CGC does consider the level of cracking in the grade, and it is largely responsible for the lack of 9.8s on some early books, like Harbinger 1.

What would grade would these books start at, 9.6? And what is the highest grade that a book with spine cracking all the way up and down grade?

Is this more significant with later VH1 and VH2 or is it just the books I'm finding?

Thanks for the info. Your guesses and feelings are welcome, too.

ckb · Post by **ckb** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 4:20 pm

Books with serious spine cracking are taken down below NM in some cases. If there's any hint of the paper itself separating, that's real bad.
For general spine flaking, no splits at the top bottom or middle, you probably start at 9.4. If it's bad, all the way up and down the spine, lower than that.

All IMO, since no one knows that they do for sure.

I haven't noticed it on anything but some pre-unity. I haven't looked closely enough at VH@ books to know if its a consistant problem.

400yrs wrote:
ckb wrote:This is called "cracking" or flaking on the spine. CGC does consider the level of cracking in the grade, and it is largely responsible for the lack of 9.8s on some early books, like Harbinger 1.
What would grade would these books start at, 9.6? And what is the highest grade that a book with spine cracking all the way up and down grade?

Is this more significant with later VH1 and VH2 or is it just the books I'm finding?

Thanks for the info. Your guesses and feelings are welcome, too.

myron · Post by **myron** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:24 pm

on the books that I am currently cataloging for myself, it seems to definitely be more of a valiant problem than other publishers...Ive gone through crossgen, first, capital, marvel, image, darkhorse and DC(and probably a few others that I'm not thinking of)...not quite 2000 books so far and the worst by far are the valiant books...those include recent "finds" as well as books that I have had for 14 years...so it's not just quarter bin "wear"

400yrs · Post by **400yrs** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:28 pm

myron wrote:not quite 2000 books so far and the worst by far are the valiant books...those include recent "finds" as well as books that I have had for 14 years...so it's not just quarter bin "wear"

That's what I figured. Seems to be a valiant problem. Other issues from the same time period in the same bins do not show similar wear. I guess it's a lot tougher than I thought to find some of the last issues in NM shape considering this problem.

Ricomortis · Post by **Ricomortis** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 7:28 pm

Oh..great 400

Now do I not only have to worry about quarter bin wear, but now how bad the material was when they printed them? Whats next? Staples rusting? discoloring? yellowing? oh lets not forget cut out coupons.

Seriously, I think those two combinations plus the lower print runs(compared to most printings at the time) are going to take a toll on the Valiant Universe and make ubber high grades less frequent. Maybe its just me....but its been 5 years that CGC has been in business and been months since Harbinger 1 sold for nearly $1000. Wizard is highlighting the prices of these books. So, then why in the H E double L are these books not coming out of the woodworks yet in high grade? Anyone answer that?

anyone?

Rico

400yrs · Post by **400yrs** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 7:49 pm

Ricomortis wrote: So, then why in the H E double L are these books not coming out of the woodworks yet in high grade? Anyone answer that?

anyone?

Rico

I'll take a stab: They don't exist as commonly in high grades as books from the same time period from other publishers due to less than average paper quality??

400yrs · Post by **400yrs** » Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:08 am

To sort of answer my own question, I just received an X-O 68 CGC'd 9.8 in the mail and it has extremely minor spine color loss. That must be what knocked the book down from a higher grade. Considering that their are not many final issues Graded at 9.8, CGC probably does grade harshly on this color loss.

3/14 of the last issues submitted for Bloodshot, Magnus, Solar, Turok, and X-O receved the 9.8 grade or 21.4%.

I guess the spine issues is what brings these books down just as it does with Harby 1 and Solar 10.

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:26 pm

It's the paper, baby.

Notice Marvel and DC books printed BEFORE Feb-Mar 1992. That's when they switched from standard newsprint (with...damn, I can't remember the pound rating cover stock)....glossy covers that folded even along the spine and did not 'crack', or reveal paper underneath.

That's why it's easier to find 'standard newsprint' comics without this flaw.

Unfortunately..no one's printed 'standard newsprint' comics since 1992....all publishers having switched to 'mando' or 'offset' printing since then...and this cover stock is INCREDIBLY unforgiving....with the result being that it cracks right along the bend of the spine (there's a technical word for this that I forget at the moment.)

You can see this type of 'problem' on all these books going back to Marvel Fanfare #1. It's just the nature of the beast....but it's difficult to classify, as you'll find this problem on books right off the press....the paper's just not suited to bending.

400yrs · Post by **400yrs** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 12:39 am

ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:It's the paper, baby.

You can see this type of 'problem' on all these books going back to Marvel Fanfare #1. It's just the nature of the beast....but it's difficult to classify, as you'll find this problem on books right off the press....the paper's just not suited to bending.

Although it seems to be a paper problem, I guess it wouldn't be considered a printing defect, correct? I know that many printing defects are overlook in grading by CGC, but my guess is that they don't with this paper cracking issue. I know I can't!!

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