Lesser Titles???

[ManofTheAtom]

It's possible that they might like them, for a variety of reasons.

That's not a gamble I'd advise the good people of VEI to take.

You guys do realize that you're proclaiming that the only valid VALIANT properties are the ones that came out before Unity?

You really don't think that the other properties have any merit at all?

[Dr. Solar]

It's possible that they might like them, for a variety of reasons.

That's not a gamble I'd advise the good people of VEI to take.

If this is the way MotA likes to gamble I am glad he is coming to the Valiant Validated poker game.

[Zaphod]

The message that VEI would be sending if they did that would be that the properties are of lesser value than the ones they are releasing in hardcovers.

VEI has to handle all their properties equally, not based on how a no longer existing market responded to them over a decade ago.

I know you are going to try and twist this into some "I just want Marvel-lite" crap but do you think Marvel treats Nomad the same as they do Wolverine?

It is simple economics. If you can go out and purchase A&A #0-6 for $10 or you can pay $30 for a HC that looks really pretty and has a 8 page all new story....you are going to have to decide if the extra money is worth it.

If I had the money, I certainly would buy it but I am a hardcore mark for the books. Since I most likely don't, I will be taking a pass on this next HC.

also, your referencing what occurred with X-Men is good, but misplaced. They essentially took the team that had already existed, changed it nearly completely after near 10 years of inactivity and re-released new stories by a new creative team. Not HC, prestige format reprints.

So what they did with X-Men there was pretty much what happend with V2 and the Acclaim books. I can't believe you are advocating that, but there it is...plain as day.

It's a different market. Today's market skews more toward the collected editions, so it makes sense for VEI to do the hcs.

Had Nomad and Wolverine not been printed for over a decade, then Marvel might try to launch them based on the merits of the individual concepts, not on reader's perspective from a decade earlier.

absolutely, if there is money to make it they better be striking while the iron is hot, but how do you decide what has those merits?

Their method right now is good, it gives them a decent way to gauge which property they can make money on but each of these HCs is an investment that is questionable at best.

I imagine they have some analysts out there making these decisions for them and there is no easy answer to the question but really other than sales from 13 years ago coupled with recent trends in the market of other peoples characters...this is all quite a bit of guesswork.

That said, a Psi-Lords HC I can't see selling well just because it has the Valiant name on it. These HCs are (hopefully) a good way for VEI to be gathering capital towards a new comic line or what is even smarter, with the way Marvel has made their money is to bring in capital from optioning their characters for movies.

[ManofTheAtom]

Can you name a series that wasn't well liked when it came out, but 15 years later became a hit?

I'm not talking about titles that got slow starts like Ultimate Spider-Man, or indy title that started tiny and got much bigger like Grendel or TNMT, but series that ran and got cancelled due to low sales (and generally lower quality), and are now regarded much better.

Darkhawk?
Sleepwalker?

Any other dozens of series from 15 years ago?

My point here is that yours is an unrealistic expectation.

Maybe not 15 years and not one single series, but Dynamite is ranking in the cash with their Project Superpowers revival of a series of comics that stopped being published over 15 years ealier.

What about VALIANT's revivals of Magnus and Solar close to a decade after they ceased publication?

[Zaphod]

So VEI should decide what they publish based on a popularity contest?

That's how we ended up with a goat one shot and a goat action figure, because the goat was the most popular character Nicieza had, then he whined to Wizard that no one was buying Turok.

oh god I hope so. This isn't about preference, this is about dollars and cents. If they simply reprint every brand they own and all of the old stories in hopes that people will buy it, we'll be looking at a new bankruptcy pretty quick here.

If their business plan were based on popularity alone instead of how to exploit their properties then they wouldn't print anything since by the time the line died none of the properties were considered "popular" anymore.

No, you base it on when the property was most popular for nostalgia. Captain Marvel once went out of business too. DC bought the character based on the fact that at one point, decades previous he was outselling Superman.

Psi-Lords never sold well (did it?) and I doubt holds decades of nostalgia.

[Dr. Solar]

It's possible that they might like them, for a variety of reasons.

That's not a gamble I'd advise the good people of VEI to take.

You guys do realize that you're proclaiming that the only valid VALIANT properties are the ones that came out before Unity?

You really don't think that the other properties have any merit at all?

I don't think anybody is saying that these ideas don't have merit, and couldn't be used in great stories in the future. We are saying that the quality of the stories in the past in Armorines, HARDCorps, etc, wasn't as good as the early Harbinger, X-O, etc.

I thought HARDCorps was a pretty nifty idea for a book, but that the EXECUTION of it was pretty bad. I was very disappointed with HARDCorps when I recently went back and read it. It was the only title where it was actually hard to sit down and read a few issues at a time.

That doesn't mean that I don't think that in the right hands, it could be a fantastic title in the future.

[ManofTheAtom]

absolutely, if there is money to make it they better be striking while the iron is hot, but how do you decide what has those merits?

Their method right now is good, it gives them a decent way to gauge which property they can make money on but each of these HCs is an investment that is questionable at best.

I imagine they have some analysts out there making these decisions for them and there is no easy answer to the question but really other than sales from 13 years ago coupled with recent trends in the market of other peoples characters...this is all quite a bit of guesswork.

That said, a Psi-Lords HC I can't see selling well just because it has the Valiant name on it. These HCs are (hopefully) a good way for VEI to be gathering capital towards a new comic line or what is even smarter, with the way Marvel has made their money is to bring in capital from optioning their characters for movies.

Well, no. It's foolish to think that it would sell because it has the logo stamped on it.

It might sell for merit alone. It is a good concept, and the stories weren't as bad as people make them sound.

[ManofTheAtom]

No, you base it on when the property was most popular for nostalgia. Captain Marvel once went out of business too. DC bought the character based on the fact that at one point, decades previous he was outselling Superman.

Psi-Lords never sold well (did it?) and I doubt holds decades of nostalgia.

Pandering to nostalgia would definitely be the wrong way to go.

Read what I've said all along.

I'm suggesting targeting the concepts to NEW readers that were never exposed to them, like the 13 year olds that were born since those series were canceled and the kids who were too young to be aware of them and are now in their late teens.

I'm not suggesting targetting the 35 year old readers that remember buying Watchmen #1 when it came out, or the 50 year olds that remember buying Fantastic Four #1.

[Chiclo]

It's possible that they might like them, for a variety of reasons.

That's not a gamble I'd advise the good people of VEI to take.

You guys do realize that you're proclaiming that the only valid VALIANT properties are the ones that came out before Unity?

You really don't think that the other properties have any merit at all?

That's not what I am saying at all.

I am saying that I believe the earlier titles and the Pre-Unity books in particular would be better recieved as hardcovers and they would sell more copies early on.

I am in the sharp minority when I say that I'd like to buy a Psi-Lords hardcover, especially if it collected all 10 issues. That's not a book that would sell well.

Bonus points if it has Destroyer 0.

[Dr. Solar]

Can you name a series that wasn't well liked when it came out, but 15 years later became a hit?

I'm not talking about titles that got slow starts like Ultimate Spider-Man, or indy title that started tiny and got much bigger like Grendel or TNMT, but series that ran and got cancelled due to low sales (and generally lower quality), and are now regarded much better.

Darkhawk?
Sleepwalker?

Any other dozens of series from 15 years ago?

My point here is that yours is an unrealistic expectation.

Maybe not 15 years and not one single series, but Dynamite is ranking in the cash with their Project Superpowers revival of a series of comics that stopped being published over 15 years ealier.

What about VALIANT's revivals of Magnus and Solar close to a decade after they ceased publication?

That's not my point. I'm not talking about taking a formerly unpopular character and making NEW stuff that is popular. That happens all the time.

I'm talking about old stories that nobody liked when they came out, but mysteriously, because of some huge cultural shift or a change of the earth's axis or whatever, people liked those OLD stories when before they didn't. I don't think THAT has happened.

[ManofTheAtom]

I don't think anybody is saying that these ideas don't have merit, and couldn't be used in great stories in the future. We are saying that the quality of the stories in the past in Armorines, HARDCorps, etc, wasn't as good as the early Harbinger, X-O, etc.

I thought HARDCorps was a pretty nifty idea for a book, but that the EXECUTION of it was pretty bad. I was very disappointed with HARDCorps when I recently went back and read it. It was the only title where it was actually hard to sit down and read a few issues at a time.

That doesn't mean that I don't think that in the right hands, it could be a fantastic title in the future.

If VEI is planning to do new titles for that and the other concepts, then it's possible that they're also planning to do collections, hence the recolored images.

[ManofTheAtom]

Can you name a series that wasn't well liked when it came out, but 15 years later became a hit?

I'm not talking about titles that got slow starts like Ultimate Spider-Man, or indy title that started tiny and got much bigger like Grendel or TNMT, but series that ran and got cancelled due to low sales (and generally lower quality), and are now regarded much better.

Darkhawk?
Sleepwalker?

Any other dozens of series from 15 years ago?

My point here is that yours is an unrealistic expectation.

Maybe not 15 years and not one single series, but Dynamite is ranking in the cash with their Project Superpowers revival of a series of comics that stopped being published over 15 years ealier.

What about VALIANT's revivals of Magnus and Solar close to a decade after they ceased publication?

That's not my point. I'm not talking about taking a formerly unpopular character and making NEW stuff that is popular. That happens all the time.

I'm talking about old stories that nobody liked when they came out, but mysteriously, because of some huge cultural shift or a change of the earth's axis or whatever, people liked those OLD stories when before they didn't. I don't think THAT has happened.

You're clearly thinking of people who were exposed to the old stuff when it was new.

I'm talking about people who were never exposed to these concepts who might find them to be interesting.

[ManofTheAtom]

I am saying that I believe the earlier titles and the Pre-Unity books in particular would be better recieved as hardcovers and they would sell more copies early on.

Why?

I am in the sharp minority when I say that I'd like to buy a Psi-Lords hardcover, especially if it collected all 10 issues. That's not a book that would sell well.

Why not? Because people that were exposed to it the first time around didn't like it?

Let me ask you, how are sales of the first 66 issues of X-Men?

[Zaphod]

absolutely, if there is money to make it they better be striking while the iron is hot, but how do you decide what has those merits?

Their method right now is good, it gives them a decent way to gauge which property they can make money on but each of these HCs is an investment that is questionable at best.

I imagine they have some analysts out there making these decisions for them and there is no easy answer to the question but really other than sales from 13 years ago coupled with recent trends in the market of other peoples characters...this is all quite a bit of guesswork.

That said, a Psi-Lords HC I can't see selling well just because it has the Valiant name on it. These HCs are (hopefully) a good way for VEI to be gathering capital towards a new comic line or what is even smarter, with the way Marvel has made their money is to bring in capital from optioning their characters for movies.

Well, no. It's foolish to think that it would sell because it has the logo stamped on it.

It might sell for merit alone. It is a good concept, and the stories weren't as bad as people make them sound.

and just to make it clear, I'd love it to work out. But when DC re-released Captain Marvel (well the fact they had to change the name to Shazam complicates this example) people picked up out of nostalgia.

I have read people post on this very site, saying they picked up early Valiant because they remembered reading Doctar Solar or Turok or Magnus and it was because of good, original, NEW, stories that they stuck around.

a Quantum&Woody trade is going to sell. There is a good amount of "word of mouth" and nostalgia. I have never read it but I would pick that trade up.

Psi-Force? Not so much. Nor a Doctor Mirage. Even though I loved that title. All of Valiants characters are not equal.

Plus with the US economy as it is right now, this is just an unlucky time for VEI to be taking chances.

[Dr. Solar]

Can you name a series that wasn't well liked when it came out, but 15 years later became a hit?

I'm not talking about titles that got slow starts like Ultimate Spider-Man, or indy title that started tiny and got much bigger like Grendel or TNMT, but series that ran and got cancelled due to low sales (and generally lower quality), and are now regarded much better.

Darkhawk?
Sleepwalker?

Any other dozens of series from 15 years ago?

My point here is that yours is an unrealistic expectation.

Maybe not 15 years and not one single series, but Dynamite is ranking in the cash with their Project Superpowers revival of a series of comics that stopped being published over 15 years ealier.

What about VALIANT's revivals of Magnus and Solar close to a decade after they ceased publication?

That's not my point. I'm not talking about taking a formerly unpopular character and making NEW stuff that is popular. That happens all the time.

I'm talking about old stories that nobody liked when they came out, but mysteriously, because of some huge cultural shift or a change of the earth's axis or whatever, people liked those OLD stories when before they didn't. I don't think THAT has happened.

You're clearly thinking of people who were exposed to the old stuff when it was new.

I'm talking about people who were never exposed to these concepts who might find them to be interesting.

I'm done.

No more conversing with mr. wall.

[ManofTheAtom]

and just to make it clear, I'd love it to work out. But when DC re-released Captain Marvel (well the fact they had to change the name to Shazam complicates this example) people picked up out of nostalgia.

I have read people post on this very site, saying they picked up early Valiant because they remembered reading Doctar Solar or Turok or Magnus and it was because of good, original, NEW, stories that they stuck around.

a Quantum&Woody trade is going to sell. There is a good amount of "word of mouth" and nostalgia. I have never read it but I would pick that trade up.

Psi-Force? Not so much. Nor a Doctor Mirage. Even though I loved that title. All of Valiants characters are not equal.

Plus with the US economy as it is right now, this is just an unlucky time for VEI to be taking chances.

Isn't Psi-Force from Marvel's New Universe?

I was never exposed to Magnus, Solar, or Turok until I read VALIANT.

Are things really that grim that new readers aren't exposed to new concepts AT ALL?

Is the industry really populated solely by 50-60 year old fanboys that have been reading comics since Fantastic Four #1, with a few staggerings of left overs from the 80's and 90's?

That's a sad, sad, sad prospect.

[betterthanezra]

Why are we debating about this in the first place...

It's a clear vision that other people have idea's on where VEI is going to take the properties...Ones you wouldn't even think they would pursue.

I think it's a long shot that we will see a Timewalker HC, Hell would freeze over before we see a Psi-Lords one in my opinion.

Would you also think that reprinting a TPB of say Ninjak VH - 2 would be stupid move? With Busieks name attached to it and Avon Oeming Both creativly with a large readership base. It only lasted 12 issues so making a trade would be easy and it's actually a fun read.

Granted it's the farthest property that Acclaim took from it's roots. Doesn't mean it's not a good book to read and the target readership for a title like that is young enough.

Bloodhot #1 - #16 VH - 2 is an Incredible read. The story & art are TOP notch. Putting this into a trade wouldn't suprise me at all.

It's great to think of where VEI will take the characters and in what form but everyone freaking calm down.

VEI has shown they are taking there time with each property why should we think that would change now?

-Brian

[Zaphod]

No, you base it on when the property was most popular for nostalgia. Captain Marvel once went out of business too. DC bought the character based on the fact that at one point, decades previous he was outselling Superman.

Psi-Lords never sold well (did it?) and I doubt holds decades of nostalgia.

Pandering to nostalgia would definitely be the wrong way to go.

Read what I've said all along.

I'm suggesting targeting the concepts to NEW readers that were never exposed to them, like the 13 year olds that were born since those series were canceled and the kids who were too young to be aware of them and are now in their late teens.

I'm not suggesting targetting the 35 year old readers that remember buying Watchmen #1 when it came out, or the 50 year olds that remember buying Fantastic Four #1.

Well I don't know what a 13 year old wants to read...if you can find that focus group and get them to read Valiant titles and tell you what they would buy for $35 a pop, then you got something.

My contention is that isn't who's buying Valiant HCs though.

[ManofTheAtom]

No, you base it on when the property was most popular for nostalgia. Captain Marvel once went out of business too. DC bought the character based on the fact that at one point, decades previous he was outselling Superman.

Psi-Lords never sold well (did it?) and I doubt holds decades of nostalgia.

Pandering to nostalgia would definitely be the wrong way to go.

Read what I've said all along.

I'm suggesting targeting the concepts to NEW readers that were never exposed to them, like the 13 year olds that were born since those series were canceled and the kids who were too young to be aware of them and are now in their late teens.

I'm not suggesting targetting the 35 year old readers that remember buying Watchmen #1 when it came out, or the 50 year olds that remember buying Fantastic Four #1.

Well I don't know what a 13 year old wants to read...if you can find that focus group and get them to read Valiant titles and tell you what they would buy for $35 a pop, then you got something.

My contention is that isn't who's buying Valiant HCs though.

Like I said earlier, it's an issue of exposure and execution.

[Zaphod]

and just to make it clear, I'd love it to work out. But when DC re-released Captain Marvel (well the fact they had to change the name to Shazam complicates this example) people picked up out of nostalgia.

I have read people post on this very site, saying they picked up early Valiant because they remembered reading Doctar Solar or Turok or Magnus and it was because of good, original, NEW, stories that they stuck around.

a Quantum&Woody trade is going to sell. There is a good amount of "word of mouth" and nostalgia. I have never read it but I would pick that trade up.

Psi-Force? Not so much. Nor a Doctor Mirage. Even though I loved that title. All of Valiants characters are not equal.

Plus with the US economy as it is right now, this is just an unlucky time for VEI to be taking chances.

Isn't Psi-Force from Marvel's New Universe?

I was never exposed to Magnus, Solar, or Turok until I read VALIANT.

Are things really that grim that new readers aren't exposed to new concepts AT ALL?

Is the industry really populated solely by 50-60 year old fanboys that have been reading comics since Fantastic Four #1, with a few staggerings of left overs from the 80's and 90's?

That's a sad, sad, sad prospect.

eh, I loved Psi-Force.

I read Valiant because a friend of mine told me what great, new stories they were doing. Word of mouth is a good tool. Not a great one, but it works fairly well but it is definately hit or miss.

New concepts are attempted all of the time in the comics industry. More fail than succeed. I haven't collected a new comic in 15 years myself, save for the odd few books (Kingdom Come) so I don't know what today's comic reader is willing to spend money on.

My gut tells me though that It probably isn't Hard Corps though.

[etos45]

I would probably go ahead and buy them if they were printed. It really would depend more on where I was financially at the time, but if I had it to spend... I would.

I somewhat agree that it wouldn't be the best decision for VEI to release them, though. I don't know exactly how much it costs to put out one of those books, but I just don't see the sales of it being high enough to cover the costs. Maybe I'm wrong.

[ncameron]

Is the industry really populated solely by 50-60 year old fanboys that have been reading comics since Fantastic Four #1, with a few staggerings of left overs from the 80's and 90's?

Yes

The only people I know of under the age of 18 that read comics just torrent them. Oh and my daughter but she more likes them to color on.


-neil

[Chiclo]

I am saying that I believe the earlier titles and the Pre-Unity books in particular would be better recieved as hardcovers and they would sell more copies early on.

Why?

I am in the sharp minority when I say that I'd like to buy a Psi-Lords hardcover, especially if it collected all 10 issues. That's not a book that would sell well.

Why not? Because people that were exposed to it the first time around didn't like it?

Let me ask you, how are sales of the first 66 issues of X-Men?

The analogy with the early X-Men issues doesn't quite hold true.

What was the last issue printed? 499. 500 is coming this month. It's still being printed. Psi-Lords is not and hasn't been printed in over a decade.

[ManofTheAtom]

The analogy with the early X-Men issues doesn't quite hold true.

What was the last issue printed? 499. 500 is coming this month. It's still being printed. Psi-Lords is not and hasn't been printed in over a decade.

That had more to do with the company wide downsizing of titles than with any flaws with that specific series.

Not all the series that VALIANT canceled were failures.

[ManofTheAtom]

Is the industry really populated solely by 50-60 year old fanboys that have been reading comics since Fantastic Four #1, with a few staggerings of left overs from the 80's and 90's?

Yes

The only people I know of under the age of 18 that read comics just torrent them. Oh and my daughter but she more likes them to color on.


-neil

Last year I didn't go to any comic book panels in SDCC because of that sad, sad, sad fact, and next week won't be any different .