Power Has Consequences

[RJMooreII]

I wonder why nobody's done a comic book series where the obvious happens, and normal humans and existing governments become politically irrelevant.

Aristocracy
Aberrant played with it, and the Authority has the Justice League effectively becoming the government, but most comics just seem to duplicate modern political structures, without considering that invincible people don't follow orders and supergeniuses don't take to silly things like laws.
Dr. Doom alone would basically implode the world governments in a few years.
Not to mention gods and aliens and wizards and supertechnology.

Money for Nothing
Superhumans would also become massive elements of the economy, as they can produce and do things that basically no one can replicate. Like most real people, the majority would probably use their powers to gain money and status.
I know a lot of people say that reading about people going to work is boring, but I have a feeling that mainly comes from people who don't have any idea of the scope and design that goes into running a business enterprise. If done with interesting characters it can be fascinating, The Driver by Garet Garret is an example, and in Jack Vance's the Demon Princes almost a quarter of one of the books is devoted to describing Kirth Gerson's various business enterprises. I'd say the problem would more be that most writers (and artists in general) usually know jack all about business or economics.

Get the Muties!
It's absurd how normal humans could still be a threat to superhuman populations.
They'd easily be cowed into submission, not only by concerted action but by simple human nature. Throwing rocks at a hunchback is one thing, but if hunchbacks had a tendency to set people on fire with their minds, you'd find a lot less stone-slinging going on.
What's even more ridiculous is in a setting like Marvel with people concerned about mutants which they can somehow distinguish from their usually (vastly more powerful) magical, alien, technological and NBC-induced super-folks, who are typically viewed as heroes.

I really think this would at least be an interesting change of pace from the Marvel/DCVerse where police still use revolvers and the government has the hubris to make laws governing people who could single-handedly destroy every last politician, soldier and policemen while incurring virtually zero risk of injury.

[StarBrand]

I think you make some good points, man.

[X-O HoboJoe]

Have you read Irredeemable? It's basically Superman gone evil.

[ian_house]

Some good points. I think the comic universes follow most of these rules so we can relate to them. Also using these familiar political systems allows writers to make comment on our world through their fiction.

If it was different, I don't think I'd be interested.

[StarBrand]

Kurt Busiek takes a look at a superhuman's ratings with the public and how that plays out in Superstar, from Image Comics.

W) Kurt Busiek (P) Stuart Immonen (I) Wade von Grawbadger Every generation produces an icon that encapsulates it's moment in history. In the late '30's /early '40's it was... SUPERMAN--paragon of truth, justice and democracy for a war-torn world. In the early to mid '60's it was... SPIDER-MAN--luckless nerd whose powers celebrated the exuberance of youth during a time of social upheaval at the birth of the "youth culture". In the early '90's it was... SPAWN-dark, undead demon whose hell-born heart was motivated by undying love in a world embracing personal greed. Today, it is... SUPERSTAR--in a world of "boy bands" and "bellybutton girls" he is the celebrity's celebrity. A hero so beloved by his fans that they are willing to empower him with their very life-force! SUPERSTAR is a hero for the Twenty-first Century and the first original take we've seen on the genre in nearly a decade. And that AIN'T hyperbole! Jim Valentino Publisher, Image Comics A new look at superheroes from the writer behind Astro City and Marvels. Meet Superstar, a superhero with a twist: the more popular he is, the more powerful he is. With the public behind him, he can work miracles -- but without them, he's nothing. Superstar's made a deal with his father, an international media tycoon, to promote him and keep him powerful enough to save the world. But now he walks a fine line -- between staying famous enough to do the most good, and becoming just another "property" in his father's portfolio. In this self-contained introductory graphic album, Superstar has to deal with a global threat from his deadliest enemy, the techno-genius Robo Sapiens, while coping with media intrusion, personal betrayal, and his father's merchandising plans. All the action, suspense and characterization you expect from Kurt (Avengers) Busiek and Stuart (Superman) Immonen plus, an incisive look at superheroes and celebrity in a world where fame literally is power. Cover price $5.95.

[RJMooreII]

Have you read Irredeemable? It's basically Superman gone evil.

But 'gone evil' is just as much a trope as being a superhero. A more realistic (and I think interesting) question is if superhumans just tried to get money and status and told the government to snog off if they knew what was good for them. Because I sure as Hell know that's the first thing I'd do with awesome super powers.

[X-O HoboJoe]

Have you read Irredeemable? It's basically Superman gone evil.

But 'gone evil' is just as much a trope as being a superhero. A more realistic (and I think interesting) question is if superhumans just tried to get money and status and told the government to snog off if they knew what was good for them. Because I sure as Hell know that's the first thing I'd do with awesome super powers.

The realization that he has no need for money or status is part of what drives the main character. The point being that with god-level power, your peer group no longer includes most of the planet and things the average person values are eventually completely irrelevant.

Give the story a read so you'll know what I'm talking about. It's a pretty fun book and IMO nicely fills the requirements of your hypothesis.

[Heath]

I think that was touched on at the end of Rising Stars, but not to the degree you're looking for.

[Cyberstrike]

I wonder why nobody's done a comic book series where the obvious happens, and normal humans and existing governments become politically irrelevant.

Aristocracy
Aberrant played with it, and the Authority has the Justice League effectively becoming the government, but most comics just seem to duplicate modern political structures, without considering that invincible people don't follow orders and supergeniuses don't take to silly things like laws.
Dr. Doom alone would basically implode the world governments in a few years.
Not to mention gods and aliens and wizards and supertechnology.

In The Authority: Revolution they did take over the USA, and ran it for a while, IIRC they gave it up due to all the paperwork.

The Justice League cartoon show had a two-parter where the Justice Lords (an alternate version of the League) had taken over their Earth and almost took over the League's Earth, the first two seasons of Justice League Unlimited was basically a sequel.

Empire, Irredeemable, and Incorruptible all show what happens when the villains take over or an all powerful superhero goes rouge and becomes a villain.

Rising Stars, Kingdom Come, Watchmen, and Miracleman all examined what might happen when superheroes and the real world clash.

FTR: All of Dr. Doom's so-called "utopia" comes at the price of losing your privacy, freedom speech, to gather in protest, the right to bear arms, and many more. You will pardon me if I don't the appeal of living in a conservative police state.

[RJMooreII]

FTR: All of Dr. Doom's so-called "utopia" comes at the price of losing your privacy, freedom speech, to gather in protest, the right to bear arms, and many more. You will pardon me if I don't the appeal of living in a conservative police state.

I'm not sure I prefer the existing social democracy any more (Latveria at least has quite a bit of economic freedom), but that's beside the point: whether or not they would form any specific kind of government or any at all, presently existing governments would be utterly powerless. Shifting balances of power almost always implode government. One involving unpredictable specific individuals gaining vastly varying levels of assorted abilities would make the population ungovernable by modern methods. Something like aristocracy would have to evolve, if there was any kind of government at all, because only the elite superhumans have any chance of controlling normal superhumans. IRL, someone with the powers of Spider-Man would be almost impossible for normal humans to stop or find and quite difficult to kill. Once you get to people like the Thing, who can survive nuclear explosions, what is organized force based on massive gatherings of hu-mans going to do? Normal humanity would simply be de facto irrelevant in politics and become increasingly less important economically.

[X-O HoboJoe]

I wonder why nobody's done a comic book series where the obvious happens, and normal humans and existing governments become politically irrelevant.

Aristocracy
Aberrant played with it, and the Authority has the Justice League effectively becoming the government, but most comics just seem to duplicate modern political structures, without considering that invincible people don't follow orders and supergeniuses don't take to silly things like laws.
Dr. Doom alone would basically implode the world governments in a few years.
Not to mention gods and aliens and wizards and supertechnology.

In The Authority: Revolution they did take over the USA, and ran it for a while, IIRC they gave it up due to all the paperwork.

The Justice League cartoon show had a two-parter where the Justice Lords (an alternate version of the League) had taken over their Earth and almost took over the League's Earth, the first two seasons of Justice League Unlimited was basically a sequel.

Empire, Irredeemable, and Incorruptible all show what happens when the villains take over or an all powerful superhero goes rouge and becomes a villain.

Rising Stars, Kingdom Come, Watchmen, and Miracleman all examined what might happen when superheroes and the real world clash.

FTR: All of Dr. Doom's so-called "utopia" comes at the price of losing your privacy, freedom speech, to gather in protest, the right to bear arms, and many more. You will pardon me if I don't the appeal of living in a conservative police state.

Good points, esp. on Miracleman and Watchmen: Bates and Veidt are spot-on examples of how this was done by Alan Moore back in the 1980's.

And if that fails, I'm sure the Simpson's did it at some point.

[Chiclo]

I wonder why nobody's done a comic book series where the obvious happens, and normal humans and existing governments become politically irrelevant.

Aristocracy
Aberrant played with it, and the Authority has the Justice League effectively becoming the government, but most comics just seem to duplicate modern political structures, without considering that invincible people don't follow orders and supergeniuses don't take to silly things like laws.
Dr. Doom alone would basically implode the world governments in a few years.
Not to mention gods and aliens and wizards and supertechnology.

In The Authority: Revolution they did take over the USA, and ran it for a while, IIRC they gave it up due to all the paperwork.

The Justice League cartoon show had a two-parter where the Justice Lords (an alternate version of the League) had taken over their Earth and almost took over the League's Earth, the first two seasons of Justice League Unlimited was basically a sequel.

Empire, Irredeemable, and Incorruptible all show what happens when the villains take over or an all powerful superhero goes rouge and becomes a villain.

Rising Stars, Kingdom Come, Watchmen, and Miracleman all examined what might happen when superheroes and the real world clash.

FTR: All of Dr. Doom's so-called "utopia" comes at the price of losing your privacy, freedom speech, to gather in protest, the right to bear arms, and many more. You will pardon me if I don't the appeal of living in a conservative police state.

What the hell? How is the loss of the right to bear arms a conservative police state?

The only group I see out there trying to disarm me is the liberals. Conservatives think my gun collection is cool.

Also, let's not forget Doom 2099 A.D.

[Heath]

Yeah, at the risk of derailing this thread, I don't think there's such a thing as a "conservative police state." In what "police state" could the citizens be armed, not be burdened by an oppressive government, and be economically and socially free? A "police state," by definition, is definitely not "conservative" in nature.

[xodacia81]

I wonder why nobody's done a comic book series where the obvious happens, and normal humans and existing governments become politically irrelevant.

Aristocracy
Aberrant played with it, and the Authority has the Justice League effectively becoming the government, but most comics just seem to duplicate modern political structures, without considering that invincible people don't follow orders and supergeniuses don't take to silly things like laws.
Dr. Doom alone would basically implode the world governments in a few years.
Not to mention gods and aliens and wizards and supertechnology.

Money for Nothing
Superhumans would also become massive elements of the economy, as they can produce and do things that basically no one can replicate. Like most real people, the majority would probably use their powers to gain money and status.
I know a lot of people say that reading about people going to work is boring, but I have a feeling that mainly comes from people who don't have any idea of the scope and design that goes into running a business enterprise. If done with interesting characters it can be fascinating, The Driver by Garet Garret is an example, and in Jack Vance's the Demon Princes almost a quarter of one of the books is devoted to describing Kirth Gerson's various business enterprises. I'd say the problem would more be that most writers (and artists in general) usually know jack all about business or economics.

Get the Muties!
It's absurd how normal humans could still be a threat to superhuman populations.
They'd easily be cowed into submission, not only by concerted action but by simple human nature. Throwing rocks at a hunchback is one thing, but if hunchbacks had a tendency to set people on fire with their minds, you'd find a lot less stone-slinging going on.
What's even more ridiculous is in a setting like Marvel with people concerned about mutants which they can somehow distinguish from their usually (vastly more powerful) magical, alien, technological and NBC-induced super-folks, who are typically viewed as heroes.

I really think this would at least be an interesting change of pace from the Marvel/DCVerse where police still use revolvers and the government has the hubris to make laws governing people who could single-handedly destroy every last politician, soldier and policemen while incurring virtually zero risk of injury.

I think that Dark Horse was starting to go down some of this path with CGW, but it never really got a chance to be explored.

[Chiclo]

I wonder why nobody's done a comic book series where the obvious happens, and normal humans and existing governments become politically irrelevant.

Aristocracy
Aberrant played with it, and the Authority has the Justice League effectively becoming the government, but most comics just seem to duplicate modern political structures, without considering that invincible people don't follow orders and supergeniuses don't take to silly things like laws.
Dr. Doom alone would basically implode the world governments in a few years.
Not to mention gods and aliens and wizards and supertechnology.

Money for Nothing
Superhumans would also become massive elements of the economy, as they can produce and do things that basically no one can replicate. Like most real people, the majority would probably use their powers to gain money and status.
I know a lot of people say that reading about people going to work is boring, but I have a feeling that mainly comes from people who don't have any idea of the scope and design that goes into running a business enterprise. If done with interesting characters it can be fascinating, The Driver by Garet Garret is an example, and in Jack Vance's the Demon Princes almost a quarter of one of the books is devoted to describing Kirth Gerson's various business enterprises. I'd say the problem would more be that most writers (and artists in general) usually know jack all about business or economics.

Get the Muties!
It's absurd how normal humans could still be a threat to superhuman populations.
They'd easily be cowed into submission, not only by concerted action but by simple human nature. Throwing rocks at a hunchback is one thing, but if hunchbacks had a tendency to set people on fire with their minds, you'd find a lot less stone-slinging going on.
What's even more ridiculous is in a setting like Marvel with people concerned about mutants which they can somehow distinguish from their usually (vastly more powerful) magical, alien, technological and NBC-induced super-folks, who are typically viewed as heroes.

I really think this would at least be an interesting change of pace from the Marvel/DCVerse where police still use revolvers and the government has the hubris to make laws governing people who could single-handedly destroy every last politician, soldier and policemen while incurring virtually zero risk of injury.

I think that Dark Horse was starting to go down some of this path with CGW, but it never really got a chance to be explored.

An excellent point, particularly as it dealt with the Golden City setting and the character Amazing Grace.

It is lamentable that that utopia fell with the departure of Grace and the arrival of Law.

[X-O HoboJoe]

Any extreme is going to end up in a totalitarian police-state: Conservative, Liberal, Theocratic . . . all can wind up the same place regardless of how they got there.

BTW, what is CIS? If I ever knew, I now suffer from CRS.

[myron]

I wonder why nobody's done a comic book series where the obvious happens, and normal humans and existing governments become politically irrelevant.

Aristocracy
Aberrant played with it, and the Authority has the Justice League effectively becoming the government, but most comics just seem to duplicate modern political structures, without considering that invincible people don't follow orders and supergeniuses don't take to silly things like laws.
Dr. Doom alone would basically implode the world governments in a few years.
Not to mention gods and aliens and wizards and supertechnology.

In The Authority: Revolution they did take over the USA, and ran it for a while, IIRC they gave it up due to all the paperwork.

The Justice League cartoon show had a two-parter where the Justice Lords (an alternate version of the League) had taken over their Earth and almost took over the League's Earth, the first two seasons of Justice League Unlimited was basically a sequel.

Empire, Irredeemable, and Incorruptible all show what happens when the villains take over or an all powerful superhero goes rouge and becomes a villain.

Rising Stars, Kingdom Come, Watchmen, and Miracleman all examined what might happen when superheroes and the real world clash.

FTR: All of Dr. Doom's so-called "utopia" comes at the price of losing your privacy, freedom speech, to gather in protest, the right to bear arms, and many more. You will pardon me if I don't the appeal of living in a conservative police state.

What the hell? How is the loss of the right to bear arms a conservative police state?

The only group I see out there trying to disarm me is the liberals. Conservatives think my gun collection is cool.

Also, let's not forget Doom 2099 A.D.

When you eventually get far enough to the right, you are on the left...

[greg]

... with god-level power, your peer group no longer includes most of the planet and things the average person values are eventually completely irrelevant.

Don't I know it.

[xodacia81]

I wonder why nobody's done a comic book series where the obvious happens, and normal humans and existing governments become politically irrelevant.

Aristocracy
Aberrant played with it, and the Authority has the Justice League effectively becoming the government, but most comics just seem to duplicate modern political structures, without considering that invincible people don't follow orders and supergeniuses don't take to silly things like laws.
Dr. Doom alone would basically implode the world governments in a few years.
Not to mention gods and aliens and wizards and supertechnology.

Money for Nothing
Superhumans would also become massive elements of the economy, as they can produce and do things that basically no one can replicate. Like most real people, the majority would probably use their powers to gain money and status.
I know a lot of people say that reading about people going to work is boring, but I have a feeling that mainly comes from people who don't have any idea of the scope and design that goes into running a business enterprise. If done with interesting characters it can be fascinating, The Driver by Garet Garret is an example, and in Jack Vance's the Demon Princes almost a quarter of one of the books is devoted to describing Kirth Gerson's various business enterprises. I'd say the problem would more be that most writers (and artists in general) usually know jack all about business or economics.

Get the Muties!
It's absurd how normal humans could still be a threat to superhuman populations.
They'd easily be cowed into submission, not only by concerted action but by simple human nature. Throwing rocks at a hunchback is one thing, but if hunchbacks had a tendency to set people on fire with their minds, you'd find a lot less stone-slinging going on.
What's even more ridiculous is in a setting like Marvel with people concerned about mutants which they can somehow distinguish from their usually (vastly more powerful) magical, alien, technological and NBC-induced super-folks, who are typically viewed as heroes.

I really think this would at least be an interesting change of pace from the Marvel/DCVerse where police still use revolvers and the government has the hubris to make laws governing people who could single-handedly destroy every last politician, soldier and policemen while incurring virtually zero risk of injury.

I think that Dark Horse was starting to go down some of this path with CGW, but it never really got a chance to be explored.

An excellent point, particularly as it dealt with the Golden City setting and the character Amazing Grace.

It is lamentable that that utopia fell with the departure of Grace and the arrival of Law.

I think one of the great tragedies of the CGW line was the failure of Dark Horse in allowing the Golden City story to play out, in either Catalyst or Agents of Law. I may be in the minority, but I was really grooving to what Giffen was doing with Agents.

[steverino]

Wait as sec....


Are we trying to imagine superheroes in a realistic way?


Doesn't that kinda defeat the point?


Comics is my escape from reality, and should not mirror it in any way except to make the characters more accessible to the reader. Therefore, realism can be very counterproductive to comics.

It's kinda like making a realistic action movie. The bad guys actually know how to shoot and the hero gets killed within 2 minutes of the movie. Not quite the recipe for a blockbuster.

[RJMooreII]

Are we trying to imagine superheroes in a realistic way?

No, in a consistent way. Taking the given premises of the story and following them to their logical conclusion.

Doesn't that kinda defeat the point?

No, it doesn't. Obviously if it did there wouldn't be thousands of people who do this all the time to the point of writing books on it.

Comics is my escape from reality, and should not mirror it in any way except to make the characters more accessible to the reader. Therefore, realism can be very counterproductive to comics.

Realism is not the same as consistency. And the constant repeating of tropes in comic books has less to do with story than with the lack of imagination and *SQUEE* out of writers and editors.

It's kinda like making a realistic action movie. The bad guys actually know how to shoot and the hero gets killed within 2 minutes of the movie. Not quite the recipe for a blockbuster.

1) most action movies are crap; 2) the ones that are good are either more realistic or over the top. Most of them simply fail and look ridiculous because the writers and directors don't know anything about real gunfights and they're too unoriginal to create an action sequence that isn't just a bunch of *SQUEE* flailing around with guns like they're blind.
John Woo's Hong Kong movies are some of the best action movies ever, and none of the enemies suffer from a terminal inability to hit targets. It's just choreographed in a way that displays the hero avoiding gunfire - usually by not being in a line-of-sight.

Most comics suck, too. I like the characters but despise the way they're handled - partly because many genre tropes (especially moral tropes) are things that actually *SQUEE* me off in real life. The biggest exception I can think of is Steve Ditko's Mr. A, who despite not having any powers is one of my favorite characters.

I also have pretty much no suspension of disbelief; so if you're going to show me laser beams and super-strength you better at least make them behave like the label indicates or I'm just going to get annoyed by it. That's why most of my fiction reading is hard science fiction like Greg Egan. For that matter, I've read more economics than I have comics, and I've read a ton of frickin' comics.

[steverino]

Are we trying to imagine superheroes in a realistic way?

No, in a consistent way. Taking the given premises of the story and following them to their logical conclusion.

But then we wouldn't have Batman. We'd have Iron Bat. And that would.. well, suck!

Comics is my escape from reality, and should not mirror it in any way except to make the characters more accessible to the reader. Therefore, realism can be very counterproductive to comics.

Realism is not the same as consistency. And the constant repeating of tropes in comic books has less to do with story than with the lack of imagination and *SQUEE* out of writers and editors.

Yeah, but consistency is an aspect of reality, therefore, still defeating the point by making them more mundane and predictable. If comics were supposed to be consistent The Killing Joke would have Batman pounding on the Joker from start to finish and Barbara Gordon would've dodged that shot that paralysed her as heroes consistently dodge bullets.

Not that the Killing Joke was a good story; it's actually the worst Batman story I've ever read! But I'm trying to make a point here.

I also have pretty much no suspension of disbelief; so if you're going to show me laser beams and super-strength you better at least make them behave like the label indicates or I'm just going to get annoyed by it. That's why most of my fiction reading is hard science fiction like Greg Egan. For that matter, I've read more economics than I have comics, and I've read a ton of frickin' comics.

So, what you're trying to tell me is that you're hard to entertain. Well, I'm not like that. I loved the Expendables and a lot of action movies. I enjoy some comics, and I'm able to check my brain at the door quite easily. The few exceptions this year was The Losers and Machete. Both were quite bad in their own way.

You and I are opposites in this way. Your ideal comic is probably nothing like mine. Where as I can believe, for a short while, that the Punisher can kill the entire Marvel Universe, you probably cannot. Therefore, the level of enjoyment you will feel will be minimal while I'm getting a kick out of it.

[RJMooreII]

My ideal comic would be something like a the Aberrant rpg written by an Objectivist anarchist.

[steverino]

My ideal comic would be something like a the Aberrant rpg written by an Objectivist anarchist.

Punisher War Journal #8 was one of my favs. Jim Lee and Carl Potts were a great team.

[RJMooreII]

My ideal comic would be something like a the Aberrant rpg written by an Objectivist anarchist.

Punisher War Journal #8 was one of my favs. Jim Lee and Carl Potts were a great team.

My favorite comic of all time is the Infinity Quest series Jim Starlin wrote. Thanos is my favorite Marvel character after Dr. Doom.

The difference in taste was probably summed up best in an article I read on Steve Ditko:

It was apparently during his run on Spider-Man that Steve Ditko first became exposed to the writings of Ayn Rand, and her philosophy of Objectivism...
But there was a problem: an Objectivist Superhero would almost have to be portrayed as infallible or even somewhat godlike, and magical, supernatural powers had no place in Objectivist philosophy. Unfortunately, this put Ditko's new ideas at odds with Stan Lee's "superheroes with feet of clay" approach...

Some people like Stan Lee. Me, I like Ditko.