HARBINGER #7 Discussion

[BugsySig]

That desert island ep is really good if you haven't heard it you should totally check it out

I will next chance I get. But between the holidays and a 2 year old, I don't often have long stretches of time at my disposal right now.

I know I'd have DKR, Miller DD, Sandman and Watchmen on my list. But that's derailing the thread a bit.

I totally agree that this book will be held in extremely high regard by many in the very near future. Josh has said he wants to write 100 issues, and I am all for it. Is there even a non-creator owned book that has had a run even close to that? Maybe early Lee/Kirby stuff, but that's all I can think of

[Elveen]

That desert island ep is really good if you haven't heard it you should totally check it out

I agree. I do wonder if C-lo has changed his list?

[Dr. Solar]

Is there even a non-creator owned book that has had a run even close to that? Maybe early Lee/Kirby stuff, but that's all I can think of

Bendis's Avengers
Bendis's Ultimate Spider-Man
Claremont's X-men
Peter David's X-Factor has got to be getting close
Geoff John's Green Lantern is climbing up there

This is off the top of my head. There's got to be more.

[BugsySig]

Is there even a non-creator owned book that has had a run even close to that? Maybe early Lee/Kirby stuff, but that's all I can think of

Bendis's Avengers
Bendis's Ultimate Spider-Man
Claremont's X-men
Peter David's X-Factor has got to be getting close
Geoff John's Green Lantern is climbing up there

This is off the top of my head. There's got to be more.

I guess I didn't think hard enough...Claremont on XMen and Bendis on USM should have been easy to guess.

David's XFactor is up there, but over separate runs with a few years in between.

Bendis on Avengers doesn't count because it gets relaunched as a new name and #1 every 2 years.

[apainter]

I felt bad for Rachel. Just a bit. I liked what we saw of her in previous issues, but when Pete found out she was complicit with the murder of Joe... well, what Pete did to her was apt punishment, I think. Probably more appropriate for Stronghold than Rachel though.

(Come to think about it, a few issues ago, Livewire indicated that Stronghold was going to kill Faith. Um, why? Is that what they do with people who don't go along with Harada, or that don't want to be activated? Harada said they'd mind wipe 'em and set 'em free, but Livewire's comment makes me think they just up and assassinate them.)

The sexual aspects of Flamingo's story didn't bother so much as the violent part at the end. At first, I thought she was just having a wienie roast (like her character did to Ax in the original Valiant), but then the fire just seemed to grow and grow and consume him. Is he dead? I would think if he isn't, he'd be horribly maimed. I'm not quite comfortable with this coming from a "good guy". I can kind of see it as a preemptive strike -- she indicated he would never let her leave him -- but still, this seems to go beyond just protecting herself.

I noticed they weren't wearing the tin foil this time. So... did those hats actually do something? Pete was wearing one last ep, and I'd assume he'd know if it keeps out psychic scans or not. But if they do work, why weren't they wearing them? What's keeping Harada from finding them when Pete's asleep, like Harada said he'd do two issues ago?

Is Flamingo's blackened look going to happen every time she flames on?

Art

[pixierosa]

The interesting thing about Harbinger is that there are no clear cut good guys - the characters are flawed. Pete forced Kris to love him (and all that entails) and his actions against Rachel (I think she knew Joe would die) were definitely from a place of rage/reaction to what he saw in her head. Flamingo is also flawed. I, too, found her expression as he was consumed by fire very creepy. She's a victim of her own circumstance and choices, so I don't feel bad for her. But that guy definitely deserved some pain. Death in such a manner? Probably not.


Tin foil: originally they had to wear them because Pete was so weak. Maybe they still wear them when he's asleep and can't protect them. They don't show this, and I like the idea that he is becoming more of a master over himself.

I think Flamingo will learn to harness and focus her power - so much so that she won't be crispy-fried. I wonder if the gloves she wears on the upcoming covers provide some sort of special protection, so she can throw flame but not hurt herself too much, and/or she has advanced healing capabilities ala Wolverine.

What I like about Dysart's characters is that they all (good and bad) seem to fall victim to the same failings we do: we judge ourselves by our intentions rather than our actions, but we judge others by their actions.

[BugsySig]

The interesting thing about Harbinger is that there are no clear cut good guys - the characters are flawed. Pete forced Kris to love him (and all that entails) and his actions against Rachel (I think she knew Joe would die) were definitely from a place of rage/reaction to what he saw in her head. Flamingo is also flawed. I, too, found her expression as he was consumed by fire very creepy. She's a victim of her own circumstance and choices, so I don't feel bad for her. But that guy definitely deserved some pain. Death in such a manner? Probably not.


Tin foil: originally they had to wear them because Pete was so weak. Maybe they still wear them when he's asleep and can't protect them. They don't show this, and I like the idea that he is becoming more of a master over himself.

I think Flamingo will learn to harness and focus her power - so much so that she won't be crispy-fried. I wonder if the gloves she wears on the upcoming covers provide some sort of special protection, so she can throw flame but not hurt herself too much, and/or she has advanced healing capabilities ala Wolverine.

What I like about Dysart's characters is that they all (good and bad) seem to fall victim to the same failings we do: we judge ourselves by our intentions rather than our actions, but we judge others by their actions.

Well, it makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint that if she can create fire, she would either be immune from burns (obviously not the case here) or be able to heal from them much more so than an average person.

[cavemold]

pm sent

Kinky!!!

[hawkeyeps]

The interesting thing about Harbinger is that there are no clear cut good guys - the characters are flawed. Pete forced Kris to love him (and all that entails) and his actions against Rachel (I think she knew Joe would die) were definitely from a place of rage/reaction to what he saw in her head. Flamingo is also flawed. I, too, found her expression as he was consumed by fire very creepy. She's a victim of her own circumstance and choices, so I don't feel bad for her. But that guy definitely deserved some pain. Death in such a manner? Probably not.


Tin foil: originally they had to wear them because Pete was so weak. Maybe they still wear them when he's asleep and can't protect them. They don't show this, and I like the idea that he is becoming more of a master over himself.

I think Flamingo will learn to harness and focus her power - so much so that she won't be crispy-fried. I wonder if the gloves she wears on the upcoming covers provide some sort of special protection, so she can throw flame but not hurt herself too much, and/or she has advanced healing capabilities ala Wolverine.

What I like about Dysart's characters is that they all (good and bad) seem to fall victim to the same failings we do: we judge ourselves by our intentions rather than our actions, but we judge others by their actions.

Well if you think about it Pete is a rapist, Kris is a bank robber and Charlene is a murderer/arsonist. Faith seems to be the exception to this rule. This book is chocked full of grey areas.

As for the foil hats I can see that being Faith's idea and once Kris was with the group she was like "take those stupid things off, here's how we're going to deal with Harada..."

[BugsySig]

The interesting thing about Harbinger is that there are no clear cut good guys - the characters are flawed. Pete forced Kris to love him (and all that entails) and his actions against Rachel (I think she knew Joe would die) were definitely from a place of rage/reaction to what he saw in her head. Flamingo is also flawed. I, too, found her expression as he was consumed by fire very creepy. She's a victim of her own circumstance and choices, so I don't feel bad for her. But that guy definitely deserved some pain. Death in such a manner? Probably not.


Tin foil: originally they had to wear them because Pete was so weak. Maybe they still wear them when he's asleep and can't protect them. They don't show this, and I like the idea that he is becoming more of a master over himself.

I think Flamingo will learn to harness and focus her power - so much so that she won't be crispy-fried. I wonder if the gloves she wears on the upcoming covers provide some sort of special protection, so she can throw flame but not hurt herself too much, and/or she has advanced healing capabilities ala Wolverine.

What I like about Dysart's characters is that they all (good and bad) seem to fall victim to the same failings we do: we judge ourselves by our intentions rather than our actions, but we judge others by their actions.

Well if you think about it Pete is a rapist, Kris is a bank robber and Charlene is a murderer/arsonist. Faith seems to be the exception to this rule. This book is chocked full of grey areas.

As for the foil hats I can see that being Faith's idea and once Kris was with the group she was like "take those stupid things off, here's how we're going to deal with Harada..."

I think, unfortunately, that is what you would get if troubled kids were given superpowers.

I did an exercise with my Psych class today where they had to put together a "Bucket List" and then, after, discuss what they would do if given one week to live. The point was to get them to realize what really matters to them, but instead I got (mostly) responses like, "Rob a Bank" and, "Beat up the people I hate." Some of that is just immaturity, but most of it comes from their background and upbringing.

So I can totally see these behaviors in reality. There are far fewer "Faiths" in this world than many would like to believe.

I also think the latent psiot's unconscious understanding they are not "whole" may lead them to some unhealthy outlets, such as Charlene's case.

[Blood of Heroes]

As for the foil hats I can see that being Faith's idea and once Kris was with the group she was like "take those stupid things off, here's how we're going to deal with Harada..."

Pretty much this.

pm sent

Kinky!!!

Did you want an invitation too?

[Dr. Solar]

Well if you think about it Pete is a rapist, Kris is a bank robber and Charlene is a murderer/arsonist. Faith seems to be the exception to this rule.

Whovian.

Just as bad.

(Whovianone would kill me, if he still posted...)

[hawkeyeps]

You mean Faith is one of these?



I can see that

What's also exciting is #9 will be Faith's issue. I have a feeling this will be the one where she finally puts her foot down about all the crazy *SQUEE* going on and really comes in to her own. She's already the voice of reason for the group, I think she'll be due for a major venting which will make for great character development.

[hawkeyeps]

Double post, sorry I can't for the life of me post pictures here.

It was Cindy Loo Who, very Christmasy.

[MarkRoseHFX]

[cavemold]

As for the foil hats I can see that being Faith's idea and once Kris was with the group she was like "take those stupid things off, here's how we're going to deal with Harada..."

Pretty much this.

pm sent

Kinky!!!

Did you want an invitation too?

for sure

[Kurokashi-san]

With the exception of a very naïve Faith, I don’t view any of the Renegades as good guys per se. As others have said, Pete essentially raped Kris, then Kris used Pete as an accomplice to rob a bank, though I do sympathize with her reasons. Finally, Charlene not only suffers from shortcomings in her emotional dealings with family and friends, but she is an arsonist and murderer. I think Dysart is giving us a book that is meant to deal with real people operating in a gray area as opposed to the simplistic good vs. evil concept.

[Chiclo]

I think this book may be told backwards, like it is showing the bad guys and their fight against the good guy, Harada.

[KXXX]

I think this book may be told backwards, like it is showing the bad guys and their fight against the good guy, Harada.

NO WAY!

Harada is a *SQUEE*. Remeber Joe?

[Elveen]

I think this book may be told backwards, like it is showing the bad guys and their fight against the good guy, Harada.

NO WAY!

Harada is a *SQUEE*. Remeber Joe?

But what about the oil and the med-bots? Not saying he IS a good guy, but not sure he is a BAD guy either.

[KXXX]

I think this book may be told backwards, like it is showing the bad guys and their fight against the good guy, Harada.

NO WAY!

Harada is a *SQUEE*. Remeber Joe?

But what about the oil and the med-bots? Not saying he IS a good guy, but not sure he is a BAD guy either.

You're right there. I like stories where everyone is ambiguous as far as right and wrong. Like Fist of the North Star.

[grendeljd]

I think this book may be told backwards, like it is showing the bad guys and their fight against the good guy, Harada.

NO WAY!

Harada is a *SQUEE*. Remeber Joe?

But what about the oil and the med-bots? Not saying he IS a good guy, but not sure he is a BAD guy either.

I just love that this book is all written in the grey area. Its pretty rare that a person is 'evil' just for the sake of being evil - its too 1 dimensional as a motivation. I think most people who are considered evil or bad would not define themselves with that label, there is always a set of complex reasons that fuel their actions & motivations. Its easy to label something/someone bad if they/it goes against the grain of popularity, for example. A 'bad' person could still end up doing something that is ultimately for the greater good, but their methods may be screwed up/immoral. Conversely, 'good' people can cause harm to others while having all the best intentions in the world.

What is interesting [and great] about Charlene's character is that she has all the elements of a personality that would fit in as a 'renegade' with Pete & Chris, but she was also on Harada's list of potentials for recruitment into his 'cause' as well, and therefore could have been swayed to his side if contacted by Toyo first... Who is more right here, the man with the ego to fuel a rigid vision or the man who wants to tear down a dictatorial authority figure? I love that it isn't a clear cut answer.

[Zaphod]

OK, while I thought from a craft standpoint this book was excellent, I gotta ask.....what happened to Valiant making these books teen friendly? From the very beginning they indicated their product would be suitable for ages 14 and up. Joshua Dysart even said as much in early interviews. But after reading this issue....there's no way this could be considered appropriate for a teen. At least not mine anyway. Too much suggestive sexuality and inappropriate material. My son is going to be extremely disappointed because he's been on the Valiant wagon big time, and Harbinger is his favorite, but they've been pushing the envelope for a while now, and this issue sort of crossed a line I'm not comfortable with. I'm not trying to get rid of Flamingo's backstory. I just think there has to be a more subtle way of portraying it without going into territory like threesomes and amateur sex videos.

I would like to ask Dinesh or Josh if they would feel comfortable handing this to a 14 year old.

Feel free to disagree, but I'd love to hear some thoughts from everyone on this....

what should be most concerning, no digs or offence intended, is that you have a bigger problem with Flamingo's backstory than her torching her boyfriends crotch.

says a lot about modern North American society as a whole. It isn't as if any of that sexual content was glamorized.

[Zaphod]

I loved this book. Flamingo's story is heartbreaking and touching and by the 17th page I identified so deeply with this story, Charlene stopped being just a character on a page to me.

"This is when he started to steal the best pieces of me. Started to take my joy."

Amazing writing, Harbinger is #1 in my mind and miles ahead of the other 4 titles. I really hope Valiant can keep Dysart under lock and key for a damned long time.

Ultimately parenting is up to each individual to make their choices but this book is something that is a fantastic way to open a dialogue with your child. The sooner the better because that ugliness is out there in the world and no amount of censoring it out is ever going to be a substitute to conversation with them.

[400yrs]

Another fantastic issue. These character studies are excellent. This is what I love about comics - the character stuff. I wonder if the stories will be as good after the team is set or if it will become a typical fight book like Harbinger kind of went towards in the early days. With stuff like the bleeding monk and Darpan (sp?), I think Dysart may keep this title character/story-driven rather than fight-driven.

The charred Charlene (Chardlene?) look is scary. I wonder how she gets back to normal.


Valiant should really be pushing this title and getting their peeps to go on some of the bigger podcasts and whatnot. It's unfortunate that the first issue had those art problems because I'm hesitant to give it out to people and say, "This is what Valiant is all about" because the art is a bit funky.

Through the first two or three issues, Bloodshot was my favorite, but between issue 6 and 7, Harbinger is hands down the best of the line for me. I've just had to drop all $3.99 books from my pull due to med bills and still searching for a job, but it's going to be tough not to buy Harbinger going forward.