Why are you under whelmed by Shadowman?

[carter3175]

I think people are a little hard on Shadowman. By issue #5 I wasn't completely sold on A&A yet, I think it just needs more time to develop. This book is very decompressed so it may take awhile for Justin to explore all of the details we want him to get to. However...

What I'd like to see is:
1. Darker/Grittier Tone (This book is currently less dark than Bloodshot/Harbinger.)

2. More Horror Oriented (we're getting there, however I'd like to get closer to Acclaim Shadowman). Unlike a lot of the board, I actually like "superhero" books and I'm glad this is a superhero book, that being said this book should strive to fill a(n) unique niche like all of the other books in the valiant line. This should be Valiant's Animal Man/Swamp Thing/American Vampire/Blade/Hellblazer/etc.

3. Make Shadowman Angry and, more importantly, make Shadowman more of a curse than a blessing. I don't mind that Jack is kind of goofy but Shadowman should be a completely different beast. Shadowman should have serious rage issues, it would give Jack something to struggle with. So far being Shadowman doesn't seem like it has its downsides.

4. Darque gone Wild. Everybody in the VU is terrified of Master Darque, I think it's time to see why. Darque is a great character and he has potential to be an icon, it's time to crank up the evil/crazy on this guy.

I won't say I'm underwhelmed by it, I just want it to surpass the original as quick as the others did (for me anyways). This book has massive potential and such a rich atmosphere and, like all of you, I only want it to be the best that it can be

You nailed it!!!! I was looking forward to this title and I must say I am not impressed. I can go with the redesign with no problem but it feels like a super hero book. New Orleans and voodoo and dark magic all go together and there is real life history they can ride off of. Fights and tights do not fit this book. I used to think A&A was worst book but this is close to taking that spot. Please do not get me started on Twist I am going to agree that this book needs to do a complete 180 and head in another direction. This book needs to explore the darker corners of the Valiant U. It needs more grit to it. Maybe I am in the minority but I enjoyed the Ennis run. It was light years better than this. The problem is, who could come in here at take it in that direction? The art does not have to be clean, it needs to match the tone of the book IMO. Again as always. I will buy it out of support for Valiant but I am NOT happy with it. My money rides on Harbinger and Bloodshot. Those books are f'in awesome.

[KXXX]

who could come in here at take it in that direction?

Me

[Chiclo]

magicks

NERD! There is no k in "magic"!

[jmatt]

I think the feel of the book should be a gritty, noir, crimefighter with supernatural/dark magic/voodoo overtones.

Like Batman but with magic not gadgets.

Well put. And Twist was pretty much the exact opposite of that. Twist would be a little goofy even in a&A, I'm not sure what they were thinking when they went that direction in Shadowman.

As I said before, watching a hellspawned creation like Twist get fitted for a suit is like watching Pinhead from Hellraiser shop for a new blender at Macy's. You're like "What the *SQUEE*??"

This book is very, very confused as to what it wants to be. I would have to say the only parts I have enjoyed so far are certain moments in Deadside, the more noir (to wear out a phrase in this thread) moments like when Darque approaches Samedi's manse.

It does not need an evil cabal of rich people trying to take over the world. They have one of those in every other Valiant title.

As someone else put it: There's too much in the pot. Daredevil has Stick. Punisher has Micro. Shadowman has Alyssa and Dox. That's one handler too many. The book was ridiculously overreaching even before Dr Mirage debuted.

And the fact that Jack is just rolling along with all of this, clear as a bell and happy as a clam, just makes me really question Jordan's ability as a writer. He's invented 100 years worth of backstory (none of it as yet explained) but has not spent 10 seconds trying to get inside of anyone's head, least of all Jack.

Couple that with all of the overwrought dialogue... just, ugh. What a mess. I don't even know how you fix it without jettisoning 75% of what we've seen.

[BugsySig]

I don't see Jack just "rolling along with it" or "Happy as a clam". What is he supposed to do? He's been possessed by a mystical spirit, handed the reigns to some legacy he never knew he had and introduced to this world of "magic" all in a very short span of time. He's overwhelmed. Of course he's going along with Alyssa and Dox...they're the only people who haven't tried to kill him since he was possessed.

And lets not forget, he made the choice. He had enough information to say "no" to Josiah. Now he might regret that decision, but it was still his decision. Should he *SQUEE* and moan about it? I'd like to see some more, "What is happening to me?," but definitely not any, "Woe is me!"

[jmatt]

I don't see Jack just "rolling along with it" or "Happy as a clam". What is he supposed to do? He's been possessed by a mystical spirit, handed the reigns to some legacy he never knew he had and introduced to this world of "magic" all in a very short span of time. He's overwhelmed. Of course he's going along with Alyssa and Dox...they're the only people who haven't tried to kill him since he was possessed.

And lets not forget, he made the choice. He had enough information to say "no" to Josiah. Now he might regret that decision, but it was still his decision. Should he *SQUEE* and moan about it? I'd like to see some more, "What is happening to me?," but definitely not any, "Woe is me!"

I don't need the woe part, but some introspection would be nice, so we agree. I say "happy as a clam" because we see so very little of it, one assumes he finds none of this disconcerting or overwhelming.

[mrozisik]

I think the feel of the book should be a gritty, noir, crimefighter with supernatural/dark magic/voodoo overtones.

Like Batman but with magic not gadgets.

Well put. And Twist was pretty much the exact opposite of that. Twist would be a little goofy even in a&A, I'm not sure what they were thinking when they went that direction in Shadowman.

As I said before, watching a hellspawned creation like Twist get fitted for a suit is like watching Pinhead from Hellraiser shop for a new blender at Macy's. You're like "What the *SQUEE*??"

This book is very, very confused as to what it wants to be. I would have to say the only parts I have enjoyed so far are certain moments in Deadside, the more noir (to wear out a phrase in this thread) moments like when Darque approaches Samedi's manse.

It does not need an evil cabal of rich people trying to take over the world. They have one of those in every other Valiant title.

As someone else put it: There's too much in the pot. Daredevil has Stick. Punisher has Micro. Shadowman has Alyssa and Dox. That's one handler too many. The book was ridiculously overreaching even before Dr Mirage debuted.

And the fact that Jack is just rolling along with all of this, clear as a bell and happy as a clam, just makes me really question Jordan's ability as a writer. He's invented 100 years worth of backstory (none of it as yet explained) but has not spent 10 seconds trying to get inside of anyone's head, least of all Jack.

Couple that with all of the overwrought dialogue... just, ugh. What a mess. I don't even know how you fix it without jettisoning 75% of what we've seen.

Twist and the suit scene is a classic! Everything that is wrong about the current Shadowman title is there. Are they trying to make the book cute to children aged 3-8?

I understand the art team is changing. Is there any news if the writer is going to get replaced (as in, needs to happen right now)?

[erwinrafael]

I think the feel of the book should be a gritty, noir, crimefighter with supernatural/dark magic/voodoo overtones.

Like Batman but with magic not gadgets.

Well put. And Twist was pretty much the exact opposite of that. Twist would be a little goofy even in a&A, I'm not sure what they were thinking when they went that direction in Shadowman.

As I said before, watching a hellspawned creation like Twist get fitted for a suit is like watching Pinhead from Hellraiser shop for a new blender at Macy's. You're like "What the *SQUEE*??"

This book is very, very confused as to what it wants to be. I would have to say the only parts I have enjoyed so far are certain moments in Deadside, the more noir (to wear out a phrase in this thread) moments like when Darque approaches Samedi's manse.

It does not need an evil cabal of rich people trying to take over the world. They have one of those in every other Valiant title.

As someone else put it: There's too much in the pot. Daredevil has Stick. Punisher has Micro. Shadowman has Alyssa and Dox. That's one handler too many. The book was ridiculously overreaching even before Dr Mirage debuted.

And the fact that Jack is just rolling along with all of this, clear as a bell and happy as a clam, just makes me really question Jordan's ability as a writer. He's invented 100 years worth of backstory (none of it as yet explained) but has not spent 10 seconds trying to get inside of anyone's head, least of all Jack.

Couple that with all of the overwrought dialogue... just, ugh. What a mess. I don't even know how you fix it without jettisoning 75% of what we've seen.

Twist and the suit scene is a classic! Everything that is wrong about the current Shadowman title is there. Are they trying to make the book cute to children aged 3-8?

I understand the art team is changing. Is there any news if the writer is going to get replaced (as in, needs to happen right now)?

I am willing to give Mr. Justin Jordan a chance to show us how he will write Shadowman when he is now on sole writing duty.

[400yrs]

I've only read issues 1, 2 and 5, but I agree with what everyone else is saying. Jack isn't developed enough and the tone of the book doesn't feel right. There's nothing about New Orleans in it at all and the humor feels a bit campy.

On the bright side, the art is awesome.

Yes, I was a big fan of the first Shadowman series, so I was very much looking forward to this book with hesitation. It didn't deliver on any of the levels I would've liked it to - connection to Jack, Darque being a bit more crazy than evil, New Orleans vibe, voodoo influence.

On the other hand though, the first series was underwhelming as well until Hall came in at #10, so I still have hope for the series in the long run. At this point, however, I'd rather pay $25 for a Shadowman Masters HC with a new few page story by Bob Hall than $4 for a new 22 page issue of Shadowman.

[stitches]

I like the book, but the I like the other valiant books more.

First arc was decent, second arc seems to building toward something big, so we'll see.

I agree with the people who say this is to much of a "superhero-book" They should do it like a supernatural-horror-action show, Buffy the vampire slayer wise. Its more or less the same concept.

Offcourse some more insight on Jack's feelings couldn't hurt either

[KXXX]

I like the book, but the I like the other valiant books more.

They should do it like a supernatural-horror-action show, Buffy the vampire slayer wise.

See... I feel it's too much like that already and that it's part of the problem.

[CylonSteve]

To me, and this is coming from a guy whom never read any Valiant in the past. Shadowman is just alright. I have only read 1-3, and the thing feels to me compared to other Valiant titles as Vanilla ice cream with vanilla sauce and vanilla sprinkles. Its kind of bland, it is still better than most things Marvel and DC, but that's about it. I my pick it back up after the second arc is done.

[Baramos]

I like everything about Shadowman except the actual main characters, I guess. I just don't care about them very much. The world and universe and the side characters/villains are very interesting, but whenever it comes back to Shadowman/Dox/Alyssa it just seems to hit a brick wall. For one thing they completely killed off Jack's original source of inner turmoil, which was thinking his parents were criminals. That's completely obliterated instantly when he finds out his father was the Shadowman. So now I think they are trying to give him a new source of turmoil in the death of Anne Alafair Ambrose (nice save on the rewrite of her name, haha, I wonder if he has Valiantfans to thank for that since I know someone suggested he make her name Anne Alafair to cover the mistake), we'll see if that "works" for the character.

[jmatt]

There's nothing about New Orleans in it at all and the humor feels a bit campy.

Well, in the book's defense they did have Jack walking a traditional New Orleans mausoleum style cemetery. Gotta give credit where it's due.

[jmatt]

I like the book, but the I like the other valiant books more.

They should do it like a supernatural-horror-action show, Buffy the vampire slayer wise.

See... I feel it's too much like that already and that it's part of the problem.

Same here.

[blujay]

I like the book, but the I like the other valiant books more.

They should do it like a supernatural-horror-action show, Buffy the vampire slayer wise.

See... I feel it's too much like that already and that it's part of the problem.

Same here.

Ditto

Actually now that stitches mentions it, this book feels very Buffy-esque. The dialogue has been giving me kind of a Whedon vibe, it's very "quirky" dialogue, specifically the back and forth between Jack and Alyssa.

In Shadowman #6, I think Justin did a pretty good job of differentiating Jack from Shadowman...until the ending. In the last few pages or so Shadowman begins to sound a lot like Jack. This makes me believe that Jack is still pretty much in control. I'm probably starting to sound like a broken record now but I believe that Shadowman and Jack should be treated as if they were different characters.

Also I really liked Twist (and I hope he comes back), but I thought Darque put too much trust in him. I understand that Twist is loyal to him and was his guy on the other side, but wouldn't it make more sense for Darque to give the job or resurrecting him to somebody a little less inclined to try on custom suits? I think Twist should've had a serious partner.

Last thing: More Jaunty please. He's my favorite character thus far, and I think that little guy's up to no good

[carter3175]

I put this book to the bottom of my reading pile. Even after I finish my other titles it might be a couple of days before I get to it. I have been known to bash A&A but they have stepped it up big time. So for me Shadowman is at the bottom of the list. Deadside is the only highlight of the book. I will also agree that the character development is suspect at best. I DO NOT want to see another I am Al Simmons, I'm dead, why, why, why, Wanda. But DAMN, this isn't cutting it. This book needs to be and read more like a Vertigo title not a Sunday morning newspaper comic. I HOPE they read these threads and accept some of these criticisms and make a change soon. This character is not for this creative team.

On another note...I HOPE the Shadowman movie takes NO ELEMENTS from THIS BOOK.

[Bone-A-Fach-ee]

On another note...I HOPE the Shadowman movie takes NO ELEMENTS from THIS BOOK.

+1

[KXXX]

They should kill Jack, start fresh.

[mrozisik]

They should kill Jack, start fresh.

Not necessarily. Just fire the current creative team. All of them.

And let somebody do a Swamp Thing # 21 on the series.

This is one book that needs a change right now.

[iggy101us]

They should kill Jack, start fresh.

Shadowman and the Future Force

[bygranddesign]

I like everything about Shadowman except the actual main characters, I guess. I just don't care about them very much. The world and universe and the side characters/villains are very interesting, but whenever it comes back to Shadowman/Dox/Alyssa it just seems to hit a brick wall. For one thing they completely killed off Jack's original source of inner turmoil, which was thinking his parents were criminals. That's completely obliterated instantly when he finds out his father was the Shadowman. So now I think they are trying to give him a new source of turmoil in the death of Anne Alafair Ambrose (nice save on the rewrite of her name, haha, I wonder if he has Valiantfans to thank for that since I know someone suggested he make her name Anne Alafair to cover the mistake), we'll see if that "works" for the character.

good post.

I think its fitting that #0 is going to focus on Master Darque because he is the most interesting character so far along with Baron Semedi. Like you said - Dox/Alyssa/Jack haven't connected yet with the audience - They are not fully formed characters yet. Making Anne Alafair the new inner turmoil for Jack seemed a bit forced and heavy handed. He had no real relationship with her other then a friendly waiter-customer relationship. It would have been easy from the beginning to make her his girlfriend, show them in a relationship, and then her dying (and coming back from the dead) would have been so much more impact-full for the reader.

But enough with the negative ... I think #0 is looking very promising - I cannot wait to read it.. The tone, the look and the feel screams what Shadowman should be all about. It should be creepy as *SQUEE*. Like I said before, the dark and gritty crime fighter elements of Batman to go along with dark magic. And don't disney-fy the Black Magic, make it dark, twisted and creepy.

[KXXX]

They should kill Jack, start fresh.

Shadowman and the Future Force

[Big Red]

I'm not underwhelmed.

I'm really enjoying the book. Especially the last two issues. More Baron Samedi!

Maybe it had a slow start, but this book is climbing in my rankings.

I like it better than Archer and Armstrong and it's probably tied with Bloodshot.

Not quite to the level of X-O Manowar and Harbinger, but still a great book.

[blujay]

I'm not underwhelmed.

I'm really enjoying the book. Especially the last two issues. More Baron Samedi!

Maybe it had a slow start, but this book is climbing in my rankings.

I like it better than Archer and Armstrong and it's probably tied with Bloodshot.

Not quite to the level of X-O Manowar and Harbinger, but still a great book.

Glad to hear that somebody else on this board (who isn't me) actually enjoys this book

What I've come to notice is that this book is more popular with new Valiant fans than it is with the old fans. Perhaps because the new fans are discovering the elements and intricacies of this book slowly where as the old fans already know what Shadowman is about and want it to develop a bit faster?