Harbinger Wars: The Whole Thing - Discussion

[Keith]

While we've had a chance to discuss our likes/dislikes about individual issues of the HW crossover, I thought I'd start a discussion around the whole event itself.

Overall, I'm swaying to grade it an A-/B+. I thought the overarching story arc was extremely engrossing, absolutely loved the way both Bloodshot and Harbinger dovetailed into it, and felt that this will leave a mark on the Valiant Universe going forward. Ultimately, Harada won, and is now in a stronger place with the new psiots and Bloodshot on his lab table. The Renegades, while very much failures in their inepexerience, have grown closer as a team. Bloodshot, also failing in what he wanted to do, has proven himself more man than machine.

Highlights include the Harada Protocols and the resulting fight between Bloodshot and Harada, the re-introduction into the Valiant Universe of a much more dangerous H.A.R.D Corps, a whole slew of new psiots with amazing abilities, and the fleshing out of the previous confilict between Harada and PRS.

Lowlights... the inconsistencies between the Bloodshot issues and the rest of the event. Won't dive into this as much since it's the hot topic in the Bloodshot #13 discussion, but that is really the only downer for me.

What did the rest of you think?

[tchalla8]

B+...lot of really good high points, but they're balanced out by some really strange choices in merging the Harby and Bloodshot titles. I also think it peaked a little too soon as the final chapters seemed to be the whole event exhaling rather than ramping up to a big finale as I think we all anticipated.

That being said, the whole thing was very impressive as a whole considering how ambitious they were with their plotting.

[BugsySig]

I agree with everything posted above

[pixierosa]

While we've had a chance to discuss our likes/dislikes about individual issues of the HW crossover, I thought I'd start a discussion around the whole event itself.

Overall, I'm swaying to grade it an A-/B+. I thought the overarching story arc was extremely engrossing, absolutely loved the way both Bloodshot and Harbinger dovetailed into it, and felt that this will leave a mark on the Valiant Universe going forward. Ultimately, Harada won, and is now in a stronger place with the new psiots and Bloodshot on his lab table. The Renegades, while very much failures in their inepexerience, have grown closer as a team. Bloodshot, also failing in what he wanted to do, has proven himself more man than machine.

Highlights include the Harada Protocols and the resulting fight between Bloodshot and Harada, the re-introduction into the Valiant Universe of a much more dangerous H.A.R.D Corps, a whole slew of new psiots with amazing abilities, and the fleshing out of the previous confilict between Harada and PRS.

Lowlights... the inconsistencies between the Bloodshot issues and the rest of the event. Won't dive into this as much since it's the hot topic in the Bloodshot #13 discussion, but that is really the only downer for me.

What did the rest of you think?

Good assessment. I agree. The series left me even more excited for Harbinger (if that is even possible).

[Jonman]

I think I agree with everyone here up and down the line, B+. Id like to add that I think event comics are comics that can go up or down in rating later depending upon how the events that took place flourish or, conversely, fall by the way side. If one year from we're still looking back to this event as the great catalyst for where we are then there's no reason I can't see this getting an even higher rating. So a bit of this is wait and see, but overall I rather enjoyed it.

My first event I've ever completed. They've always been a bit hard on my wallet, involve too many characters are just doesn't interest me. Not to mention how easy it is for me to just skip it and the status quo is still basically the same as before it happened. But this felt like something that needed to be done and it wasn't too expensive for me.

[Bone-A-Fach-ee]

Better wrap up than Age of Ultron!

[Elveen]

I have to give he entire thing an A
I do admit that overall, the bloodshot books were the weak parts.
But the Harbinger Wars and Harby books were so great it pulled up everything.

[AnthonyF]

I'm also giving it an A

I approached it with reservation, Bloodshot finding the kids didn't seem like much of an event for me, but once I started HW #1 I was hooked. The new gen 0 kids are great, and I'm looking forward to reading more about them. ...as if Harbinger didn't have enough characters already.... lol

The reintroduction of the HARDcorps and the Harbinger 1969 storyline were highlights for me. I loved how the Corps were introduced, and that they'll stick around (even though you didn't know two would bite it so quick).


Yeah, calling it Harbinger Wars is a bit of an exaggeration - Harbinger Battles would be more accurate (1960's and Las Vegas).

But it got me reading comics on Wednesdays, and for me that is high praise.

[iwantvaliant]

Yeah, it was good. I don't have very many complaints. I think we should all re-read this in three years and see what we think. Who's in?

[tchalla8]

Yeah, it was good. I don't have very many complaints. I think we should all re-read this in three years and see what we think. Who's in?

I'll probably re-read it in 3 weeks

[SJS4]

I think i would give it a B- at best. I would probably be an A on its own, but i have to subtract points for ruining the Bloodshot series.

[Bl00dsh0t]

I think everyone is pretty much spot on. I'd give it a B+. Intorduced some great characters and really set the scene for what's to come. I plan on re-reading all 12 issues over the weekend in one hit.

[Elveen]

I can see the perspective of some peeps saying the bloodshot books might
Bring down the overall grade, but also consider how many characters were in the
Tale and how well they got fleshed out in so few pages.
And then there is Cronos. He's got to be worth almost one letter grade

[Jonman]

I can see the perspective of some peeps saying the bloodshot books might
Bring down the overall grade, but also consider how many characters were in the
Tale and how well they got fleshed out in so few pages.
And then there is Cronos. He's got to be worth almost one letter grade

Chronus*, not a Guillermo Del Toro movie.

[BugsySig]

I can see the perspective of some peeps saying the bloodshot books might
Bring down the overall grade, but also consider how many characters were in the
Tale and how well they got fleshed out in so few pages.
And then there is Cronos. He's got to be worth almost one letter grade

No bargaining for grades! Stick to the rubric! And here I thought you were a teacher

[jmatt]

Solid "A" for me.

I don't understand the complaints about Bloodshot. Of all the characters on the table (and there are many) his is the one who's story progression has increased the most, imo. Harada is still Harada; the Renegades have bonded a little more but are still essentially who they were before it began.

But Bloodshot has managed to free himself from the manipulations of Kuretich. He's freed the kids he's captured from PRS. He's beaten back some of his nanitic programming such that he's more in control than Goldie Boy (snicker, I simply hate that name...).

[erwinrafael]

Harbinger Wars the limited series is good. I would grade it A-.

Harbinger Wars the crossover is not. B at most. VEI did not handle this well as a crossover.

I think it is with good intentions that VEI chose to NOT force Bloodshot-only readers and Harbinger-only readers to pick up a crossover that they do not want. The Bloodshot and Harbinger issues are pretty much understandable on their own. However, this type of crossover treatment would only work if the stories in the three series are not so intertwined. In Harbinger Wars, the stories of the three series are very intertwined which leads to a lot of redundancies for the reader who picked up all three series. the Bloodshot series in particular feels inconsequential as a part of the crossover. Harbinger works a bit better because it had the advantage of Dysart being the writer of the core HW book. I feel sorry for Duane, who had to think up of a story that will not disrupt what's happening in the main HW series.

[Carson]

Harbinger Wars the limited series is good. I would grade it A-.

Harbinger Wars the crossover is not. B at most. VEI did not handle this well as a crossover.

I think it is with good intentions that VEI chose to NOT force Bloodshot-only readers and Harbinger-only readers to pick up a crossover that they do not want. The Bloodshot and Harbinger issues are pretty much understandable on their own. However, this type of crossover treatment would only work if the stories in the three series are not so intertwined. In Harbinger Wars, the stories of the three series are very intertwined which leads to a lot of redundancies for the reader who picked up all three series. the Bloodshot series in particular feels inconsequential as a part of the crossover. Harbinger works a bit better because it had the advantage of Dysart being the writer of the core HW book. I feel sorry for Duane, who had to think up of a story that will not disrupt what's happening in the main HW series.

Had Duane already mentally checked out though? I heard (on this board) that he didn't really co-write HW, but really just plotted early on. Why was a special thanks given to Dysart on bloodshot this week? Did he help Duane write bloodshot too?! Not trying to gossip, hoping someone has more solid info than me on how involved Duane was. Gage and Dysart are taking over for sure, that much we know.

[Carson]

Oh, and I give the entire HW an A.

Bloodshot matured as a character and broke free of his protocol programming (as was evidenced by his second confrontation with Harada, note the protocol didn't take over).

The Gen 0 kids were great. Dysart daftly navigated dozens of characters.

HARD Corps were nicely introduced, though damn, they are some unlike able SOBs.

The Harbinger renegades grew and learned and lost some innocence. Faith showed she is the heart and soul of the team. Charlene is learning to master the flames! Torque rode the beast!

Man, it was all so good. I'm definitely gonna read it again.

I'm not sure where bloodshot was headed as a book, but I definitly dot feel like these couple issues were wasted. He'll come out of the crossover vastly different. He put the smack down on Harada (stabbed him!), he broke free of Goldie's control, he tried to redeem himself for capturing those kids, he shot his fantasy wife in the face (again, breaking free of his programming).... that's a lotta growth for two issues!

Bravo Valiant, and major kudos to Warren and Dysart!

[lorddunlow]

Harbinger Wars the limited series is good. I would grade it A-.

Harbinger Wars the crossover is not. B at most. VEI did not handle this well as a crossover.

I think it is with good intentions that VEI chose to NOT force Bloodshot-only readers and Harbinger-only readers to pick up a crossover that they do not want. The Bloodshot and Harbinger issues are pretty much understandable on their own. However, this type of crossover treatment would only work if the stories in the three series are not so intertwined. In Harbinger Wars, the stories of the three series are very intertwined which leads to a lot of redundancies for the reader who picked up all three series. the Bloodshot series in particular feels inconsequential as a part of the crossover. Harbinger works a bit better because it had the advantage of Dysart being the writer of the core HW book. I feel sorry for Duane, who had to think up of a story that will not disrupt what's happening in the main HW series.

I sorta agree with erwinrafael. HW excellent =A; Harbinger = A+; Bloodshot = A

But the crossover as a whole didn't work. Read all 12 issues together, and they just don't flow well. Read HW in its entirety, then read the other series separately and they are great. Together - not so much.

[erwinrafael]

Harbinger Wars the limited series is good. I would grade it A-.

Harbinger Wars the crossover is not. B at most. VEI did not handle this well as a crossover.

I think it is with good intentions that VEI chose to NOT force Bloodshot-only readers and Harbinger-only readers to pick up a crossover that they do not want. The Bloodshot and Harbinger issues are pretty much understandable on their own. However, this type of crossover treatment would only work if the stories in the three series are not so intertwined. In Harbinger Wars, the stories of the three series are very intertwined which leads to a lot of redundancies for the reader who picked up all three series. the Bloodshot series in particular feels inconsequential as a part of the crossover. Harbinger works a bit better because it had the advantage of Dysart being the writer of the core HW book. I feel sorry for Duane, who had to think up of a story that will not disrupt what's happening in the main HW series.

I sorta agree with erwinrafael. HW excellent =A; Harbinger = A+; Bloodshot = A

But the crossover a whole didn't work. Read all 12 issues together, and they just don't flow well. Read HW in its entirety, then realized other series separately and they are great. Together - not so much.

Yeah, I tried to read it in one sitting. It does not read well. Read them separately and they are good.

[erwinrafael]

Harbinger Wars the limited series is good. I would grade it A-.

Harbinger Wars the crossover is not. B at most. VEI did not handle this well as a crossover.

I think it is with good intentions that VEI chose to NOT force Bloodshot-only readers and Harbinger-only readers to pick up a crossover that they do not want. The Bloodshot and Harbinger issues are pretty much understandable on their own. However, this type of crossover treatment would only work if the stories in the three series are not so intertwined. In Harbinger Wars, the stories of the three series are very intertwined which leads to a lot of redundancies for the reader who picked up all three series. the Bloodshot series in particular feels inconsequential as a part of the crossover. Harbinger works a bit better because it had the advantage of Dysart being the writer of the core HW book. I feel sorry for Duane, who had to think up of a story that will not disrupt what's happening in the main HW series.

Had Duane already mentally checked out though? I heard (on this board) that he didn't really co-write HW, but really just plotted early on. Why was a special thanks given to Dysart on bloodshot this week? Did he help Duane write bloodshot too?! Not trying to gossip, hoping someone has more solid info than me on how involved Duane was. Gage and Dysart are taking over for sure, that much we know.

I am not sure if Duane checked out mentally but from what I read, it's more of being constrained by events outside his book. When Bloodshot confronted Harada in HW #2, Duane has been boxed into a corner because what happened to Bloodshot was very substantial. There was no way he could write around that without being redundant if the aim is to let Bloodshot readers who do not read HW still understand what's happening. The situation is very different for Harbinger. Before the final issue of HW, what Peter and the renegades had in the HW series are character moments. No substantial events at the scale of the Harbinger vs. Harada showdown, which is why Dysart has an easier time tying in Harbinger to the HW series.

[BugsySig]

Harbinger Wars the limited series is good. I would grade it A-.

Harbinger Wars the crossover is not. B at most. VEI did not handle this well as a crossover.

I think it is with good intentions that VEI chose to NOT force Bloodshot-only readers and Harbinger-only readers to pick up a crossover that they do not want. The Bloodshot and Harbinger issues are pretty much understandable on their own. However, this type of crossover treatment would only work if the stories in the three series are not so intertwined. In Harbinger Wars, the stories of the three series are very intertwined which leads to a lot of redundancies for the reader who picked up all three series. the Bloodshot series in particular feels inconsequential as a part of the crossover. Harbinger works a bit better because it had the advantage of Dysart being the writer of the core HW book. I feel sorry for Duane, who had to think up of a story that will not disrupt what's happening in the main HW series.

Had Duane already mentally checked out though? I heard (on this board) that he didn't really co-write HW, but really just plotted early on. Why was a special thanks given to Dysart on bloodshot this week? Did he help Duane write bloodshot too?! Not trying to gossip, hoping someone has more solid info than me on how involved Duane was. Gage and Dysart are taking over for sure, that much we know.

I believe it was an interview with Dysart early on where he said the original plan was to cowrite the crossover but Duane is a busy guy with many projects going on concurrently, while Josh is exclusive to VEI, so it was just easier for him to take over writing duties for the main series (his words summarized by me).

But as far as every interview I have read with Josh, Duane, Warren, Fred, Dino, etc, the plan from very early on was to have the books intersect. So its not like the crossover was forced onto Duane.

I would guess the thanks was probably because Duane and Josh collaborated on where to leave the issue leading into the new BS&HC series.

[Carson]

Harbinger Wars the limited series is good. I would grade it A-.

Harbinger Wars the crossover is not. B at most. VEI did not handle this well as a crossover.

I think it is with good intentions that VEI chose to NOT force Bloodshot-only readers and Harbinger-only readers to pick up a crossover that they do not want. The Bloodshot and Harbinger issues are pretty much understandable on their own. However, this type of crossover treatment would only work if the stories in the three series are not so intertwined. In Harbinger Wars, the stories of the three series are very intertwined which leads to a lot of redundancies for the reader who picked up all three series. the Bloodshot series in particular feels inconsequential as a part of the crossover. Harbinger works a bit better because it had the advantage of Dysart being the writer of the core HW book. I feel sorry for Duane, who had to think up of a story that will not disrupt what's happening in the main HW series.

Had Duane already mentally checked out though? I heard (on this board) that he didn't really co-write HW, but really just plotted early on. Why was a special thanks given to Dysart on bloodshot this week? Did he help Duane write bloodshot too?! Not trying to gossip, hoping someone has more solid info than me on how involved Duane was. Gage and Dysart are taking over for sure, that much we know.

I believe it was an interview with Dysart early on where he said the original plan was to cowrite the crossover but Duane is a busy guy with many projects going on concurrently, while Josh is exclusive to VEI, so it was just easier for him to take over writing duties for the main series (his words summarized by me).

But as far as every interview I have read with Josh, Duane, Warren, Fred, Dino, etc, the plan from very early on was to have the books intersect. So its not like the crossover was forced onto Duane.

I would guess the thanks was probably because Duane and Josh collaborated on where to leave the issue leading into the new BS&HC series.

Gotcha. That makes perfect sense, especially with Dysart serving as the bridge between DS and Gage. I'm optimistic for the books future. It should be a fun ride. Gage blew me away on Cobra, and Dysart is just amazing month after month.

[String]

Harbinger Wars the limited series is good. I would grade it A-.

Harbinger Wars the crossover is not. B at most. VEI did not handle this well as a crossover.

I think it is with good intentions that VEI chose to NOT force Bloodshot-only readers and Harbinger-only readers to pick up a crossover that they do not want. The Bloodshot and Harbinger issues are pretty much understandable on their own. However, this type of crossover treatment would only work if the stories in the three series are not so intertwined. In Harbinger Wars, the stories of the three series are very intertwined which leads to a lot of redundancies for the reader who picked up all three series. the Bloodshot series in particular feels inconsequential as a part of the crossover. Harbinger works a bit better because it had the advantage of Dysart being the writer of the core HW book. I feel sorry for Duane, who had to think up of a story that will not disrupt what's happening in the main HW series.

I sorta agree with erwinrafael. HW excellent =A; Harbinger = A+; Bloodshot = A

But the crossover as a whole didn't work. Read all 12 issues together, and they just don't flow well. Read HW in its entirety, then read the other series separately and they are great. Together - not so much.

Being new to VEI, I didn't feel forced to buy the other titles to enjoy HW. Yes, it was marketed that way but one can read HW and enjoy the full story. If someone wanted the details of what happened in-between the panels of HW, then they could read the solo titles.

Overall, I would give this event an A+.

After reading Marvel's major events of the last few years, HW felt like a breath of fresh air. A good overall plot, excellent characterization, dynamic art, and the event followed through by altering the status quo in a creative way that sets up for new story potentials. Cronus has to be the best new character introduced that I've seen in quite awhile. Really excited for Gen Zero now.

The solo titles were great as well, expanding of what was seen in the main event book. I can't comment on the previous issues of Blooshot but I thought his issues were very well done. And Harbinger was just outstanding. Dysart is firing on all cylinders.