Harbinger Wars: The Whole Thing - Discussion

[Carson]

Harbinger Wars the limited series is good. I would grade it A-.

Harbinger Wars the crossover is not. B at most. VEI did not handle this well as a crossover.

I think it is with good intentions that VEI chose to NOT force Bloodshot-only readers and Harbinger-only readers to pick up a crossover that they do not want. The Bloodshot and Harbinger issues are pretty much understandable on their own. However, this type of crossover treatment would only work if the stories in the three series are not so intertwined. In Harbinger Wars, the stories of the three series are very intertwined which leads to a lot of redundancies for the reader who picked up all three series. the Bloodshot series in particular feels inconsequential as a part of the crossover. Harbinger works a bit better because it had the advantage of Dysart being the writer of the core HW book. I feel sorry for Duane, who had to think up of a story that will not disrupt what's happening in the main HW series.

I sorta agree with erwinrafael. HW excellent =A; Harbinger = A+; Bloodshot = A

But the crossover as a whole didn't work. Read all 12 issues together, and they just don't flow well. Read HW in its entirety, then read the other series separately and they are great. Together - not so much.

Being new to VEI, I didn't feel forced to buy the other titles to enjoy HW. Yes, it was marketed that way but one can read HW and enjoy the full story. If someone wanted the details of what happened in-between the panels of HW, then they could read the solo titles.

Overall, I would give this event an A+.

After reading Marvel's major events of the last few years, HW felt like a breath of fresh air. A good overall plot, excellent characterization, dynamic art, and the event followed through by altering the status quo in a creative way that sets up for new story potentials. Cronus has to be the best new character introduced that I've seen in quite awhile. Really excited for Gen Zero now.

The solo titles were great as well, expanding of what was seen in the main event book. I can't comment on the previous issues of Blooshot but I thought his issues were very well done. And Harbinger was just outstanding. Dysart is firing on all cylinders.

So good to hear a new Valiant fan's appraisal of the crossover, and the series in general. I think some of us old dogs might be a little to hard on the new books. I agree 100% Dysart is killing it! He deftly maneuvered dozens of characters and introduced some new characters that should be fun to watch develop.

[bygranddesign]

Harbinger Wars the limited series is good. I would grade it A-.

Harbinger Wars the crossover is not. B at most. VEI did not handle this well as a crossover.

I think it is with good intentions that VEI chose to NOT force Bloodshot-only readers and Harbinger-only readers to pick up a crossover that they do not want. The Bloodshot and Harbinger issues are pretty much understandable on their own. However, this type of crossover treatment would only work if the stories in the three series are not so intertwined. In Harbinger Wars, the stories of the three series are very intertwined which leads to a lot of redundancies for the reader who picked up all three series. the Bloodshot series in particular feels inconsequential as a part of the crossover. Harbinger works a bit better because it had the advantage of Dysart being the writer of the core HW book. I feel sorry for Duane, who had to think up of a story that will not disrupt what's happening in the main HW series.

I hear some of what your saying here.

But I think the concept of the crossover was a great idea. Conceptually its an A for me. It was obvious from the start that this crossover was inevitable and the ramifications of the crossover are very real and significant for both titles and for the universe as a whole. The IDEA that you can read the 3 series separately was a good idea (yes this created some hurdles but not an impossible task)

Execution is where it fell short in places ... particularly with the bloodshot issues.

I'm not feeling sorry for Duane ... he could have developed Clem and his bloodshot kids in the same way Dysart developed Cronus and Gen Zero

Harby #12 is a brilliant example of Dysart developing and fleshing out characters within the crossover. People who only collected Harbinger Wars didn't need to read Harby #12 ... but if you did read Harby #12 it added even more depth and enjoyment to the HW series.

Also... Dysart created and interweaves a 1969 storyline within Harbinger giving more background to the war. A brilliant storyline that was an incredible read on its own!

Duane couldn't do that?

Couldn't he have given us more background on the kids in the nursery? Couldn't he have given us more on Bloodshot's past as it relates to the Psiot kids? Better development of Kara? The end of Kuretich was pretty good .. but that issue could have been handled better too.

So many possibilities he could have gone with .... it's not that the Bloodshot portion of the crossover was BAD ... but it was only DECENT and I expect better then DECENT when it comes to Valiant. And the fact that these were Bloodshot's weakest issues and it was part of this important crossover in which Dysart brought his A GAME only magnified the drop off in quality from earlier issues.

I would give the overall grade for the Harbinger Wars crossover an 8/10 (solid B grade)

The Harbinger Wars portion is a 9.0 (A)
The Harbinger portion is an 8.5 (B+)
The Bloodshot portion is a 7.0 (C)

[Carson]

Harbinger Wars the limited series is good. I would grade it A-.

Harbinger Wars the crossover is not. B at most. VEI did not handle this well as a crossover.

I think it is with good intentions that VEI chose to NOT force Bloodshot-only readers and Harbinger-only readers to pick up a crossover that they do not want. The Bloodshot and Harbinger issues are pretty much understandable on their own. However, this type of crossover treatment would only work if the stories in the three series are not so intertwined. In Harbinger Wars, the stories of the three series are very intertwined which leads to a lot of redundancies for the reader who picked up all three series. the Bloodshot series in particular feels inconsequential as a part of the crossover. Harbinger works a bit better because it had the advantage of Dysart being the writer of the core HW book. I feel sorry for Duane, who had to think up of a story that will not disrupt what's happening in the main HW series.

I hear some of what your saying here.

But I think the concept of the crossover was a great idea. Conceptually its an A for me. It was obvious from the start that this crossover was inevitable and the ramifications of the crossover are very real and significant for both titles and for the universe as a whole. The IDEA that you can read the 3 series separately was a good idea (yes this created some hurdles but not an impossible task)

Execution is where it fell short in places ... particularly with the bloodshot issues.

I'm not feeling sorry for Duane ... he could have developed Clem and his bloodshot kids in the same way Dysart developed Cronus and Gen Zero

Harby #12 is a brilliant example of Dysart developing and fleshing out characters within the crossover. People who only collected Harbinger Wars didn't need to read Harby #12 ... but if you did read Harby #12 it added even more depth and enjoyment to the HW series.

Also... Dysart created and interweaves a 1969 storyline within Harbinger giving more background to the war. A brilliant storyline that was an incredible read on its own!

Duane couldn't do that?

Couldn't he have given us more background on the kids in the nursery? Couldn't he have given us more on Bloodshot's past as it relates to the Psiot kids? Better development of Kara? The end of Kuretich was pretty good .. but that issue could have been handled better too.

So many possibilities he could have gone with .... it's not that the Bloodshot portion of the crossover was BAD ... but it was only DECENT and I expect better then DECENT when it comes to Valiant. And the fact that these were Bloodshot's weakest issues and it was part of this important crossover in which Dysart brought his A GAME only magnified the drop off in quality from earlier issues.

I would give the overall grade for the Harbinger Wars crossover an 8/10 (solid B grade)

The Harbinger Wars portion is a 9.0 (A)
The Harbinger portion is an 8.5 (B+)
The Bloodshot portion is a 7.0 (C)

I'm buying this argument. It really rang true for me. Everyone that wants to defend DS in this arc doesn't really mention what he could have done with his four BS HW issues, they just excuse this arc saying his hands were tied due to editorial or crossover restrictions. I can't imagine Warren vetoing any of the interesting possible story lines mentioned above, and I think they code improved DS's last BS arc immensely.

There was every opportunity to make this, his last BS arc, more memorable.

It was decent, it wasn't great. Harbinger Wars and Harbinger were outstanding.

[Big Red]

But the crossover a whole didn't work. Read all 12 issues together, and they just don't flow well. Read HW in its entirety, then realized other series separately and they are great. Together - not so much.

Yeah, I tried to read it in one sitting. It does not read well. Read them separately and they are good.

As I said in another thread:

I remember reading that the Powers-That-Be at Valiant really wanted all three book of this crossover to stand alone. (Harbinger Wars 1-4, and the four issues each of Harbinger and Bloodshot.) They didn't want anyone to feel forced into buying all 12 issues of this crossover. Some might just want to read Harbinger. or Bloodshot. or the Harbinger Wars mini.

However, while that is a noble idea, I think that may have hurt this crossover, particularly Bloodshot's book. Several readers complained that there was too much repetition in Bloodshot's book. But it had to be included if Valiant wanted each book to stand alone.

Personally, I think that it would have read better to have each edition of this crossover be parts 1-12.


But overall, I still loved it.

Harbinger Wars: A+
Harbinger: A
Bloodshot: B-

[swtor1091]

Solid B+ for me other from the bloodshot issues it was an amazing job....

[BugsySig]

The main series and Harbinger were A+.

The Harbinger Wars issues, using Gen Zero as the focal point, was brilliant. HARD Corps was introduced perfectly, Cronos became a star character, and Ahenry's art was top notch (as always).

The Harbinger issues worked perfectly as a tie-in and should be held up as an example for event tie-ins. It fit right into the main series while continuing to have its own voice distinct from it (bonus credit for that to JD as he was writing both and managed this feat).

Bloodshot was a B-. These felt more like those tangential tie-ins that Marvel always have that sort of relate to the main event, but not really. They are just done to slap the event banner at the top and boost some sales. Most of the issues were good and did some much needed character building for Bloodshot. Only the last issue was disappointing, but the first and third issues felt too far removed from the main event to get a higher grade. Only #11 and the second half of #14 felt like a true tie-in.

[CallMeBloodshot]

Haha everyone gets Chronus' name wrong

[BugsySig]

Haha everyone gets Chronus' name wrong

Go back and check your books. It's "Cronos"

[Heath]

I thought the overall story was excellent. I've only skimmed this thread and haven't read any of the threads for the individual issues, but it seems that the problems I had with the books are problems others had as well. Namely, they just didn't flow well together. Every time I got to Bloodshot, it seemed the reading order was out of wack. I haven't tried reading HW 1-4 separately and the other books as just part of their runs, but I might go back and do that and see if it flows better. I didn't really mind the redundancy between issues. But, when it came to that redundancy, I really missed the extremely tight continuity of the original Valiant as evidenced in Unity. In Unity, when scenes were repeated across books, the details of those scenes were the same. I guess that's the standard I have come to expect from Valiant and they didn't quite achieve it this time.

Otherwise, I found the story entertaining and quite enjoyed it. I'm looking forward to Bloodshot #0.

[lorddunlow]

Haha everyone gets Chronus' name wrong

Go back and check your books. It's "Cronos"

Actually, you're both wrong. It's Cronus.

[Big Red]

Haha everyone gets Chronus' name wrong

Go back and check your books. It's "Cronos"

Actually, you're both wrong. It's Cronus.

Someone actually knows how to spell this character's name.

[BugsySig]

Haha everyone gets Chronus' name wrong

Go back and check your books. It's "Cronos"

Actually, you're both wrong. It's Cronus.

Oops...that's what I get for correcting someone...I go and make a typo!

Who has two thumbs and looks like a jackass? This guy <-------

[lorddunlow]

This brings up an interesting point about Cronus. His codename is the only one that doesn't correspond to his ability. I had been thinking Chronus (time) in my head until we just had the above exchange that pointed out that it is indeed Cronus. Cronus is a healer that also can cause injury with his powers. Cronus is the titan that overthrew and slew his father, Uranus (by castrating him - gotta love those Greeks). Since he is the only one who varies from the name reflecting the powers (that I can think of), I really think this is foreshadowing on Dysart's part.

This really makes me interested to see how Cronus will play out, especially if Dysart plans on modeling him after Cronus the Greek deity. Uranus was a jerk who locked up his unusual children (Cyclops, hundred-handed ones - can't remember the actual name, etc.). Cronus slew Uranus to free them - seems to be similar to how Cronus is acting in HW. He then became the ruler and king of the Titans. His sister Rhea became his queen and they gave birth to the Greek pantheon of gods (Zeus and crew). Cronus however ate them all so they couldn't overthrow him as he did his father. He became power hungry until Zeus was born (hidden by Rhea) and slipped Cronus something to make him throw them all up (again, gotta love the Greeks) releasing all of the others from his belly. There was then a war in which the children overthrew Cronus

Now, I don't think Cronus is going to sleep with his sister and eat his babies, but if Dysart is using the name for foreshadowing, then I believe we may see him overthrow Harada, only to become equally as bad forcing one of his "children" (psiots) to have to overthrow him. That would be awesome.

[Carson]

This brings up an interesting point about Cronus. His codename is the only one that doesn't correspond to his ability. I had been thinking Chronus (time) in my head until we just had the above exchange that pointed out that it is indeed Cronus. Cronus is a healer that also can cause injury with his powers. Cronus is the titan that overthrew and slew his father, Uranus (by castrating him - gotta love those Greeks). Since he is the only one who varies from the name reflecting the powers (that I can think of), I really think this is foreshadowing on Dysart's part.

This really makes me interested to see how Cronus will play out, especially if Dysart plans on modeling him after Cronus the Greek deity. Uranus was a jerk who locked up his unusual children (Cyclops, hundred-handed ones - can't remember the actual name, etc.). Cronus slew Uranus to free them - seems to be similar to how Cronus is acting in HW. He then became the ruler and king of the Titans. His sister Rhea became his queen and they gave birth to the Greek pantheon of gods (Zeus and crew). Cronus however ate them all so they couldn't overthrow him as he did his father. He became power hungry until Zeus was born (hidden by Rhea) and slipped Cronus something to make him throw them all up (again, gotta love the Greeks) releasing all of the others from his belly. There was then a war in which the children overthrew Cronus

Now, I don't think Cronus is going to sleep with his sister and eat his babies, but if Dysart is using the name for foreshadowing, then I believe we may see him overthrow Harada, only to become equally as bad forcing one of his "children" (psiots) to have to overthrow him. That would be awesome.

This post is just one of many that shed more light on these books and make them more enjoyable than they would've been on their own.

I love this board.

Thanks for the well thought out post. I for one hope you're right.

[grendeljd]

Great post, Dunlow - I wouldn't be surprised at all if Dysart is taking his inspiration from that mythology with a similar theme to be played out in Harbinger.

I just re-read HW 1-4, and really thoroughly enjoyed it. I think each title in the crossover will read better individually like that.

Pretty crazy that Harada basically won the war... But then who else actually stood a chance against him? He has a vast power base he has established over the years, it won't be an easy task to take him down. I'm really looking forward to reading how the repercussions will play out from here on in Harbinger.

[BugsySig]

This brings up another question, which is: Do you think VEI will release a Deluxe edition of Harbinger Wars containing all 12 issues?

Will the Delux editions of Harby and BS include the HW issues? Even if they do, or they are reserved for Vol. 2, should VEI put out a HW Deluxe on its own? Would it even be a good idea considering the feedback about reading the event as a whole?

[grendeljd]

This brings up another question, which is: Do you think VEI will release a Deluxe edition of Harbinger Wars containing all 12 issues?

Will the Delux editions of Harby and BS include the HW issues? Even if they do, or they are reserved for Vol. 2, should VEI put out a HW Deluxe on its own? Would it even be a good idea considering the feedback about reading the event as a whole?

If anything, that would establish an 'official' reading order from the editorial department. It did seem like reading it in release schedule order was only out of whack a couple of times, especially where we got two issues of the crossover in one week & had to take a chance on which one to read first for best effect.

I think it would make for a pretty cool deluxe book.

[Carson]

Since they read better alone, I think they'll just do three separate trades. Just speculating of course. Lets save the deluxe TPB (or oversized hardcover) for UNITY!!!

[lorddunlow]

Since they read better alone, I think they'll just do three separate trades. Just speculating of course. Lets save the deluxe TPB (or oversized hardcover) for UNITY!!!

+1

[jmatt]

Since they read better alone, I think they'll just do three separate trades. Just speculating of course. Lets save the deluxe TPB (or oversized hardcover) for UNITY!!!

Maybe it would be a Harbinger Wars Omnibus edition, one with all of the titles. I can't imagine doing a 4 issue HW TPB...

The BS and Harby TPBs will probably omit the HW editions though, not sure how well it would read without them..

[hawkeyeps]

I read them all as they came out then re-read them separately- Harbinger Wars first then Harbinger then Bloodshot, I found that worked very well.

All the stories held up on their own for me but the quality of HW and Harbinger we're noticeably better than Bloodshot, that said now that Dysart is on that book with Gage and more HARD Corps is coming up I have to say this is my most anticipated title right now.

There is just so much stuff going on from Harbinger Wars

[BugsySig]

Let me clarify...I expect each title (BS, Harby and HW) to have each of their 4 issues collected in separate TPBs, but my questions would be:

1. How many issues will be included in Vol 1 of the Harby and BS Hardcover Deluxe Editions? Will they stop before HW or include them? (The XO Deluxe Edition includes #1-14, so it would make sense to have them in Harby & BS, too)

2. If the HW tie-ins are not included in the Vol 1 Deluxe Editions, would it make sense to have a Harbinger Wars Deluxe Edition collecting all 12 issues? Would you buy it? (Personally, I am being selfish and hoping for a HW DE because I plan on getting all the Deluxe Editions for the foreseeable future and don't want Harbinger Wars to be the odd-man out )

I don't know if anyone can answer #1 since the Harbinger DE hasn't been solicited yet, but #2 is likely dependent on that answer.

[leonmallett]

Let me clarify...I expect each title (BS, Harby and HW) to have each of their 4 issues collected in separate TPBs, but my questions would be:

1. How many issues will be included in Vol 1 of the Harby and BS Hardcover Deluxe Editions? Will they stop before HW or include them? (The XO Deluxe Edition includes #1-14, so it would make sense to have them in Harby & BS, too)

2. If the HW tie-ins are not included in the Vol 1 Deluxe Editions, would it make sense to have a Harbinger Wars Deluxe Edition collecting all 12 issues? Would you buy it? (Personally, I am being selfish and hoping for a HW DE because I plan on getting all the Deluxe Editions for the foreseeable future and don't want Harbinger Wars to be the odd-man out )

I don't know if anyone can answer #1 since the Harbinger DE hasn't been solicited yet, but #2 is likely dependent on that answer.

Personally I would like a HW deluxe edition hc; but the reading order would be an interesting choice.

[grendeljd]

I just re-read Harbinger 11-14. Just like HW, it reads really well that way, without needing to read the other books. Maybe a little cluttered in #14, but ultimately it worked as a good story to have the team not really knowing what all took place during the crisis moments. I'd have to give this portion of the crossover a solid A+.

A few things I noted this time around;

Dysart is very skillful in his choices of repeating scenes & using specific dialogue that overlaps in HW & Harbinger.

"You are the bird that carries the world in its talon" what a fantastic phrase to describe the harbinger logo & everything that Harada thinks he stands for. It really encapsulates his colossal ego.

Harbinger 11 - the first scene with Carter we see him without a helmet on and his head is normal looking ( at least from the camera angle chosen in those panels). Yet in Harbinger 14 he says they tortured him for two years to activate his psionics. I'm thinking he likely has the ability to project imagery, like Harada does so that no-one actually sees his abnormal head.

I got the impression from the 1969 arc that RSS was ahead of the tech curve at times in the past, but not always, and perhaps never as much as after Harada came along. Still looking forward to seeing other storyline connections to PRS/RSS in the past (maybe in Eternal Warrior, A&A or even Shadowman).

Weird idea here - I'm wondering if that rat that appeared to be activated might somehow contain a fragment of Carter's mind after he died. It just seems odd that it appears in the same panel that Carter says 'welcome to my new head'...

I think it was really good storytelling that the Renegades ended up losing the conflict & weren't able to save any PRS kids. Realistically, despite having psionic powers, they are seriously under prepared for situations like this, up against trained & experienced opponents like Bloodshot & Harada. But some really cool developments in Faith & Flamingo's skills.

Can't wait to see what Harada does with the captured psiots in the future. The world-building that is taking place in Harbinger is excellent this time around - at this point in the VH1 series, I felt the stories were starting to get directionless. Dysart is realizing the full potential of the depth of character in Harada and his position in society as a major power player. So much more than just a stereotypical 'evil' guy. I'm glad he is so much more central to the book.

[jmatt]

Weird idea here - I'm wondering if that rat that appeared to be activated might somehow contain a fragment of Carter's mind after he died. It just seems odd that it appears in the same panel that Carter says 'welcome to my new head'...

Well now I have to go back and reread that issue. There was a lot going on in that scene.

Speaking of Carter, just read Avengers #86 the other night and this guy (10-year old kid, actually) reminded me of Carter.



Ya gotta love the classics.