Harbinger #18 Discussion

[apainter]

I'm inclined to believe the Bleeding Monk is the man behind the curtain so to speak.

We were talking about this last night, and I went into a bit of a long-winded conspiracy theory, but thinking back to the issue where Pete leaves the Foundation in search of Joe....

1. "Joe" was supposedly reaching out to him mentally, but the theory was that his powers were being blocked. Joe basically points out how lame the situation is and that he thinks he's visiting Pete because something is wrong.

2. Pete's leaving is what set the plan in motion to kill Joe, thus driving Pete back to an understanding and accepting Harbinger Foundation. No one would be left for him out there in the big bad world.

3. If #2 above is true, then it wasn't Joe's overdosing (or threatening by the goon squad) that sent the psychic Joe to see Pete. It likely wasn't Joe at all. If anyone, it was the Bleeding Monk, getting Pete to do what he wanted him to do, leave the foundation. And of course BM would know, seeing the future as he does, what the result would be -- the death of Joe and *SQUEE* hitting the fan.

4. I also think BM had been in contact with Livewire, either directly or unbeknownst to her, influencing her opinion. She offered nothing but a flimsy excuse to Pete as to why she let him escape - because he's a pain in the *SQUEE*, etc. She tells Harada that she betrayed him in battle because he needs someone to balance him. Now she might have come to these conclusions on her own, but she is indebted to Harada in many ways, given her childhood and the opportunity he has offered. Perhaps the BM suggested Harada needs someone strong enough to challenge if necessary?

I cannot wait to learn more about the BM's end game. We know he cares nothing about human deaths as long as the end justifies the means - and it's his purposes that he's working for. Not necessarily Harada's.

On a side note, where the heck is Pete's mom? We know his dad was either comatose or died due to his trying to activate latent powers, but the mom left him at the psych unit when he was 11. Is she alive? When Pete returned "home" - why didn't he look her up?

Anyway, this issue was another good one. The tie-ins with other books, Pete's dream, some laughs over the Torquehalla dialogue, and we know what they had planned for the renegades (death by lab rat).... Looking forward to the conclusion of this arc. The solicitations for the upcoming months look great.

I still love Kris, even though she looks *SQUEE* crazy in the last panel.

+1 to all this.

I was thinking back on the series this morning and hoping that at some point, Joe's "ghost" and Amanda's betrayal would be explained some more. Amanda gave two conflicting reasons for helping Pete -- she told him they [HGC} would be better with him gone, and later, that he needed to live to challenge Harada. I hadn't thought of the Monk being behind these decisions. It's brilliant!

I was a bit bewildered by the Monk helping Harada in Harbinger Wars, but I can see the Perfect Day storyline as a way to allow both the Renegades and the GZ kids to escape.

(But what then, I wonder. It's not like the Renegades have the resources of HGC. It's hard to picture all those kids traveling around by bus or something. They'd need to set up camp somewhere.)

I also thought about Pete's parents and wondered when/if we'd see them again. Kris' parents need to be addressed as well. They were mentioned by Kris recently, so I'm sure Josh has something in store for them.

Art

[Phoenix8008]

I also thought about Pete's parents and wondered when/if we'd see them again. Kris' parents need to be addressed as well. They were mentioned by Kris recently, so I'm sure Josh has something in store for them.

Art

I think their families are coming back into the story in issue 21 in February, at least according to the solicit blurb...
Once again, the Renegades are on the run with the combined forces of the Harbinger Foundation and Project Rising Spirit closing in on all sides. This time, however, the team's newest member, Ax, has left a trail of leaked classified information that could could win the day – but also put the few loved ones they have into dire peril. And now the moment has come when they must choose between their fate and their families…

[Bone-A-Fach-ee]

So, were those actual scenes from Peter's life? did those events with Kris, Joe, and his parents actually happen? I know they were referenced in like issue 1, or something, but his "perfect day" was an actual memory, while every one else's was imaginary?
Loved the difference in artwork to differentiate between Pete's dream state and the present day.
Very cool seeing the effects of Harada pushing himself too hard, really want to see a mind squall happen!
also, good to see Harada's schedule, spelling out how much time he designates to everything he has going on in the Valiant Universe. And the fact that yes, he is most certainly spreading himself way too thin.
Kris/ Flamingo? Interesting love story, and unfolding pretty naturally, although it will be interesting to see their reactions when they wake up.
Torque.... this is an interesting one. Will he survive? He may actually choose to stay in Torquehalla, that is, if he's even given a choice of any sort.
Liked this issue, but feel I might need to re-read to see some of the other things mentioned in this thread. Overall though, very enjoyable, and can't wait to see Animalia come back into the picture as well.

[BugsySig]

So, were those actual scenes from Peter's life? did those events with Kris, Joe, and his parents actually happen? I know they were referenced in like issue 1, or something, but his "perfect day" was an actual memory, while every one else's was imaginary?
Loved the difference in artwork to differentiate between Pete's dream state and the present day.
Very cool seeing the effects of Harada pushing himself too hard, really want to see a mind squall happen!
also, good to see Harada's schedule, spelling out how much time he designates to everything he has going on in the Valiant Universe. And the fact that yes, he is most certainly spreading himself way too thin.
Kris/ Flamingo? Interesting love story, and unfolding pretty naturally, although it will be interesting to see their reactions when they wake up.
Torque.... this is an interesting one. Will he survive? He may actually choose to stay in Torquehalla, that is, if he's even given a choice of any sort.
Liked this issue, but feel I might need to re-read to see some of the other things mentioned in this thread. Overall though, very enjoyable, and can't wait to see Animalia come back into the picture as well.

Pete's "Perfect Day" is entirely fictional. He didn't meet Joe until he was already in the institution, and he had made his father comatose after trying to activate him when he was much younger. His day was more like the classic "What do you give the man who has everything?" Superman story where he gets to live out his fantasy of being raised by his parents on Krypton.

Nice nod to the Matrix in those scenes, btw. It's the old philosophical idea that once people know their reality is a false one, even if it is a better one, they will reject it.

[Carson]

The more I think about this issue, them more I liked it... and I already really liked it upon first read.

The two "perfect day" scenarios (Pete's and Torque's) were woven perfectly with the present. This was just a really immersive, interesting read. This is shaping up to be my favorite VEI arc to-date.

[jmatt]

I definitely think you're going to be the recipient of a Harby Gold from me soon, but there is still a chance that Torque dies in the chamber or is stuck inside his mind forever as a vegetable. I say if his physical body dies - I win, but anything else happens, you win. Deal?

One caveat: If he doesn't or can't leave the tube, it has to be because of what Kris did to him. It can't be because Harada traps him there, etc... things that don't involve Kris.

This is an expansion on the original bet, that Kris killed him in the real world -- and I'm okay with that. But in order for you to win, his demise should in some way be a direct consequence of Kris' actions. I'll even accept "Torque refuses to leave Torquehalla" because it was Kris' action that landed them all there.

Sound fair? Because without that, the bet morphs from "Kris killed Torque" to "Torque doesn't survive Harada's capture".

[lorddunlow]

I definitely think you're going to be the recipient of a Harby Gold from me soon, but there is still a chance that Torque dies in the chamber or is stuck inside his mind forever as a vegetable. I say if his physical body dies - I win, but anything else happens, you win. Deal?

One caveat: If he doesn't or can't leave the tube, it has to be because of what Kris did to him. It can't be because Harada traps him there, etc... things that don't involve Kris.

This is an expansion on the original bet, that Kris killed him in the real world -- and I'm okay with that. But in order for you to win, his demise should in some way be a direct consequence of Kris' actions. I'll even accept "Torque refuses to leave Torquehalla" because it was Kris' action that landed them all there.

Sound fair? Because without that, the bet morphs from "Kris killed Torque" to "Torque doesn't survive Harada's capture".

Sounds reasonable. That's actually what I was trying to convey.

[iwantvaliant]

Very good issue. Valiant has got Harada as a character nailed down.

Is next month the conclusion to this arc? Can't wait to read it.

[Talisman]

I think I'm going to have to re-read this arc from the beginning, because I don't remember being all that impressed by this issue...

[jmatt]

I definitely think you're going to be the recipient of a Harby Gold from me soon, but there is still a chance that Torque dies in the chamber or is stuck inside his mind forever as a vegetable. I say if his physical body dies - I win, but anything else happens, you win. Deal?

One caveat: If he doesn't or can't leave the tube, it has to be because of what Kris did to him. It can't be because Harada traps him there, etc... things that don't involve Kris.

This is an expansion on the original bet, that Kris killed him in the real world -- and I'm okay with that. But in order for you to win, his demise should in some way be a direct consequence of Kris' actions. I'll even accept "Torque refuses to leave Torquehalla" because it was Kris' action that landed them all there.

Sound fair? Because without that, the bet morphs from "Kris killed Torque" to "Torque doesn't survive Harada's capture".

Sounds reasonable. That's actually what I was trying to convey.

Deal.

[jkingman]

I hope Monica Jim joins the Renegades!!

[lorddunlow]

I hope Monica Jim joins the Renegades!!

+1

[kjjohanson]

Torque.... this is an interesting one. Will he survive? He may actually choose to stay in Torquehalla, that is, if he's even given a choice of any sort.

I don't see that happening. Torquehalla was an escapist fantasy because Torque had nothing in the real world. Now he has friends. That counts for a lot to someone who hasn't had them before. His conversation with Kris (the one in which he promises to stop calling things "gay") is a good sign of that.

[BugsySig]

Torque.... this is an interesting one. Will he survive? He may actually choose to stay in Torquehalla, that is, if he's even given a choice of any sort.

I don't see that happening. Torquehalla was an escapist fantasy because Torque had nothing in the real world. Now he has friends. That counts for a lot to someone who hasn't had them before. His conversation with Kris (the one in which he promises to stop calling things "gay") is a good sign of that.

I agree. It wouldn't surprise me at all for Torque to choose his real friends over Torquehalla.

[lorddunlow]

Torque.... this is an interesting one. Will he survive? He may actually choose to stay in Torquehalla, that is, if he's even given a choice of any sort.

I don't see that happening. Torquehalla was an escapist fantasy because Torque had nothing in the real world. Now he has friends. That counts for a lot to someone who hasn't had them before. His conversation with Kris (the one in which he promises to stop calling things "gay") is a good sign of that.

I agree. It wouldn't surprise me at all for Torque to choose his real friends over Torquehalla.

At this point, the only way I see me winning my bet with jmatt is if Torque goes into cardiac failure like Ingrid feared some of them might. I doubt that's going to happen, though. I'm also less ticked if he does survive though, because we're all still debating what is going to happen to him, so I think Dysart pulled it off well (as usual).

Love this book.

[jmatt]

Torquehalla was an escapist fantasy because Torque had nothing in the real world. Now he has friends. That counts for a lot to someone who hasn't had them before.

That, and he appears to be a little bored and disenchanted with Torquehalla. A little like VH1 Albert with his Bim-world.

I think there's a good chance we get to see him ride to the rescue and help save his friends from whatever awaits at the Sea of Woe.

Didn't he say he was a little perplexed because his Torquehalla adventures always start in the Sea of Woe and this time it didn't? Perhaps this time, it ends in the Sea of Woe... for good.

[Carson]

He's also disenchanted because his own camera crew has left him to instead follow Kris and Flamingo as they adventure out into torquehala. He might go to the rescue because he needs to be the center of attention in t-ville.

[kjjohanson]

I think there's a good chance we get to see him ride to the rescue and help save his friends from whatever awaits at the Sea of Woe.

Didn't he say he was a little perplexed because his Torquehalla adventures always start in the Sea of Woe and this time it didn't? Perhaps this time, it ends in the Sea of Woe... for good.

I could totally see that happening. But I think it still means you win.

[BugsySig]

I think there's a good chance we get to see him ride to the rescue and help save his friends from whatever awaits at the Sea of Woe.

Didn't he say he was a little perplexed because his Torquehalla adventures always start in the Sea of Woe and this time it didn't? Perhaps this time, it ends in the Sea of Woe... for good.

I could totally see that happening. But I think it still means you win.

With the decompression of today's stories, if Torque dies in issue 50 it will only be like a week after the Battle of Las Vegas and still count for your bet

[Dallow Spicer1]

Possibly my favourite Harby issue to date. Loved the art in Pete's dream scenes, loved the build up to Harada's mental meltdown, really pleased to see the references to Unity and Bloodshot. My only small gripe was the art in the Torkhalla scenes, I wasn't a huge fan of that.

4.5/5 Dysart is on fire!!!

[solidsteeze]

Interestingly enough, this was one of my least favorite issues of the series so far. While there were definitely some interesting events, I feel like a great deal of it was decompression, which usually kills a story for me. I liked the dream sequence, and showing Harada's schedule, and it definitely moved the story forward, but it seemed very slow. This whole arc has been interesting but is definitely being paced for a trade in a way that detracts from my enjoyment.

[leonmallett]

A pretty solid issue for me, but lacking the 'something more' of last issue's focus on Animalia which was possibly my favourite issue so far of the series. I don't really care for the Torquehala stuff; I get the context, and it makes sense in that context, but it comes off as fairly corny to me, which I also understand is probably the point - post-modern irony and all that. However, because I find it corny, it just does not do much as a story beat for me, especially when it has dominated at least a couple of the issue in the arc so far.

[erwinrafael]

So...will the entire series really just be Harada vs. the Renegades (and some Project Rising Spirit)?

[erwinrafael]

A pretty solid issue for me, but lacking the 'something more' of last issue's focus on Animalia which was possibly my favourite issue so far of the series. I don't really care for the Torquehala stuff; I get the context, and it makes sense in that context, but it comes off as fairly corny to me, which I also understand is probably the point - post-modern irony and all that. However, because I find it corny, it just does not do much as a story beat for me, especially when it has dominated at least a couple of the issue in the arc so far.

I agree, I'm kind of tired of Torquehalla or whatever, but it looks like with Harada's breakdown things will be moving from the dream world back to reality for the Renegades.

We can finally move on from Inception. LOL

[BugsySig]

A pretty solid issue for me, but lacking the 'something more' of last issue's focus on Animalia which was possibly my favourite issue so far of the series. I don't really care for the Torquehala stuff; I get the context, and it makes sense in that context, but it comes off as fairly corny to me, which I also understand is probably the point - post-modern irony and all that. However, because I find it corny, it just does not do much as a story beat for me, especially when it has dominated at least a couple of the issue in the arc so far.

I agree, I'm kind of tired of Torquehalla or whatever, but it looks like with Harada's breakdown things will be moving from the dream world back to reality for the Renegades.

We can finally move on from Inception. LOL

We've only had two issues in Torquehalla. That's not really a lot.