32 pages, no not really....

[Aomalle27]

More and more, lately I've noticed the VEI books seem
Quick on the read, too short. So I started counting the actual pages on the books and found them
Really well below the advertised 32 pages. Eternal Warrior was a mere 20, and Xo wasn't much better at 22. What's the deal? They aren't counting the ad pages and the annoying preview pages for the 0 issues are they? (I'd rather get more story sine I'm paying a premium for VEI versus marvel and DC). The previews are really becoming quite annoying. I'm considering dropping off the VEI wagon if the diminishing returns continue. 3.99 for 20 pages seem a bit excessive, 3.99 for 32 pages or something close, I'd be satisfied with, hey VEI ditch the 5 or 6 preview pages and add those 5 or 6 pages as story for each respective title.

[leonmallett]

More and more, lately I've noticed the VEI books seem
Quick on the read, too short. So I started counting the actual pages on the books and found them
Really well below the advertised 32 pages. Eternal Warrior was a mere 20, and Xo wasn't much better at 22. What's the deal? They aren't counting the ad pages and the annoying preview pages for the 0 issues are they? (I'd rather get more story sine I'm paying a premium for VEI versus marvel and DC). The previews are really becoming quite annoying. I'm considering dropping off the VEI wagon if the diminishing returns continue. 3.99 for 20 pages seem a bit excessive, 3.99 for 32 pages or something close, I'd be satisfied with, hey VEI ditch the 5 or 6 preview pages and add those 5 or 6 pages as story for each respective title.

20-22 pages has been industry norm for some time. DC's $2.99 books were/are 20 pages, and 22 has been the typical page count for the big two. 25-28 pages means longer to draw the issue, and more pages of art and script to pay for - can't see that happening honestly.

[krylox]

yup, i also noticed this with x-o, shadowman and eternal warrior. and cancelled them. with ew, i dropped the book after the second issue for that reason, but gave it another try with the fifth issue. same problem: barely 5 minutes and i was through it. 5 minutes for 4$? no way.
if you reduce the page count (like some of dc's offerings) you have to somehow compensate with a more dense storytelling. otherwise, the reader just feels ripped off. at least some of us do.

[leonmallett]

yup, i also noticed this with x-o, shadowman and eternal warrior. and cancelled them. with ew, i dropped the book after the second issue for that reason, but gave it another try with the fifth issue. same problem: barely 5 minutes and i was through it. 5 minutes for 4$? no way.
if you reduce the page count (like some of dc's offerings) you have to somehow compensate with a more dense storytelling. otherwise, the reader just feels ripped off. at least some of us do.

Reasonable comment. But expecting 25-28 pages of story given the market norms is not a reasonable expectation IMHO.

[rkjock1]

yup, i also noticed this with x-o, shadowman and eternal warrior. and cancelled them. with ew, i dropped the book after the second issue for that reason, but gave it another try with the fifth issue. same problem: barely 5 minutes and i was through it. 5 minutes for 4$? no way.
if you reduce the page count (like some of dc's offerings) you have to somehow compensate with a more dense storytelling. otherwise, the reader just feels ripped off. at least some of us do.

Reasonable comment. But expecting 25-28 pages of story given the market norms is not a reasonable expectation IMHO.

Fact is this, comics are an expensive hobby. Even the Big Two are only providing 20-22 pages. As has been repeatedly stated, this is an Industry norm. As is a $3.99 price tag. While a few of DCs books are $2.99, the number of them keeps dropping. Nearly all Independant publishers are at the higher price point, and this again has always been the case. I assure you, if you were reading VH1 back in the day, you were paying more per issue than for a Big Two book. It's just the economics of it.

Honestly though, if the per issue cost is a problem for you, switch to trades. If you purchase off Amazon you can expect to pay somewhere in the area of $2-$3 per issue for a softcover edition.

[Dallow Spicer1]

yup, i also noticed this with x-o, shadowman and eternal warrior. and cancelled them. with ew, i dropped the book after the second issue for that reason, but gave it another try with the fifth issue. same problem: barely 5 minutes and i was through it. 5 minutes for 4$? no way.
if you reduce the page count (like some of dc's offerings) you have to somehow compensate with a more dense storytelling. otherwise, the reader just feels ripped off. at least some of us do.

I think it also depends on how much notice you take of the art in comics? I imagine people who are quick readers only pay cursory attention to the art (maybe)? I was recently reading the XO deluxe edition and it has some extras including VDitti's script. Even though I'd read the issues before after reading his script and how the artist depicted his direction I realised I'd missed a lot of detail from my first read.

[grendeljd]

yup, i also noticed this with x-o, shadowman and eternal warrior. and cancelled them. with ew, i dropped the book after the second issue for that reason, but gave it another try with the fifth issue. same problem: barely 5 minutes and i was through it. 5 minutes for 4$? no way.
if you reduce the page count (like some of dc's offerings) you have to somehow compensate with a more dense storytelling. otherwise, the reader just feels ripped off. at least some of us do.

I think it also depends on how much notice you take of the art in comics? I imagine people who are quick readers only pay cursory attention to the art (maybe)? I was recently reading the XO deluxe edition and it has some extras including VDitti's script. Even though I'd read the issues before after reading his script and how the artist depicted his direction I realised I'd missed a lot of detail from my first read.

Fully agree with Dallow Spicer1 here - slow down & enjoy the art. The mind processes images much more quickly than written words, because its less work. You automatically abstract the info you are seeing in an image & file it according to your own understanding & experiences of life. I bet if you take more time to really look at what is expressed visually, rather than just counting the time it takes to read what is written, it'll increase your enjoyment of the story & take a little more time. Its easy to miss some subtleties [I'm guilty of it too] with a glance over.

I hadn't noticed that some Valiant books have dipped to 20 pages recently, but from the very beginning they have listed them as 32 page books. Which isn't a total lie - there are 32 pages in a standard comic, I believe, whether or not those are all counted as story pages. While it is unfortunate & a little disappointing if there have been a few 20 pagers, by far we've been treated well by Valiant, often there are issues with as much as 23-28 pages of story/art, with no big fanfare announcements [outside of XO #1] of how much extra we're getting.

One of the reasons I stopped buying Marvel comics was that 20 pages for $3.99, for 'premiere' character books was becoming far too common there. So - because a character is more popular, I should pay more to read about them? Ridiculous. Just because it is an 'industry standard' doesn't make a 20 page count for $3.99 okay with me. Who started making it a 'standard', anyway? It wasn't always a standard, why should anyone put up with 'less-for-more' as an acceptable standard? Especially when the other 10 pages in the comic [not including the front cover & a summary page if there is one] are full blown advertisements for products from other companies - so they're also earning plenty of money on top of charging us that 20page/$3.99 'premiere' rate.

I don't have any problem with paying $3.99 for a Valiant book, because generally we are getting more than 20 pages of art per issue [at least I thought we were, now I'm curious about that] & the other pages aren't full of advertisements for other products. They're just using their space to promote their other titles, with one or two industry related ads [comixology] and basically getting no extra income for that. They're still technically an 'indie' company. I'd love to pay a little less, but I can justify it for Valiant.

[Carson]

I read 'em twice, usually with a day or two between. Usually I get on here after the first read to see others reactions and talk about mine. Then I re-read. It's amazing what you catch that you missed the first time around.

Yes, comics can read quickly these days if you want them to, but if you slow down and soak up the visuals , the nonverbal story, you'll enjoy em much more.

[nonplayer]

Well said Carson!

[GammaJosh]

I've grown accustomed to the price, number of pages, and short read time of most comics. This poses one major problem for me...when they read so fast and so little of a decompressed multi-issue story happens each month, I can hardly remember what happened by the time the next issue comes out! Thank god for those recap pages! How am I supposed to remember a story that I consumed in 5 minutes 30 days ago! I think I need to start going back and re-reading complete arcs after I've read all the individual issues.

[x-omatic]

I had stopped buying Marvel because the ads were every other page.
With that much advertising they should be paying us to read it.

Anyway, I picked up the new Sandman Overture today.

"Extra sized Issue" printed on the cover.
$4.99 cover price.

28 pages of story, plus cover.
10 pages of ads, plus back cover ad.

Somehow I feel cheayed. What's the 'extra' I got for the $4.99 cover price?

[vikingspawn]

Check out the monthly Dark Horse Presents model. They still keep it at 80 pages with no ads or previews for $7.99:

http://www.darkhorse.com/Comics/24-111/ ... resents-32" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[erwinrafael]

Reading a comic book with 22 pages of story for only five minutes means that most likely, you read it like reading a book. That means you missed out a lot from the art. I suggest you slow down. Follow the flow of the art, there is actually cinematography in the pages. Feel when the panel sizes actually create an effect on you. Follow the "accents" in the lettering.

[leonmallett]

I had stopped buying Marvel because the ads were every other page.
With that much advertising they should be paying us to read it.

Anyway, I picked up the new Sandman Overture today.

"Extra sized Issue" printed on the cover.
$4.99 cover price.

28 pages of story, plus cover.
10 pages of ads, plus back cover ad.

Somehow I feel cheayed. What's the 'extra' I got for the $4.99 cover price?

$3.99 at 22 pages of story is pro-rata $5.08 for 28 pages. So about right, give or take.

If $3.99 is right that is...

[Reber]

DC and Marvel usually have 20 pages. Marvel fluctuates depending on the story, but DC is pretty locked in. I'm not sure what Valiant book had 20 pages. I have yet to color a book less than 22 pages at Valiant and I've colored a bunch of them. As far as the price point keep in mind that we are still technically an independent company. We don't have the larger print runs that DC or Marvel might have on their $2.99 books. That means it costs more to print our books. Also, people have to make a living off of these. It may only take 5 minutes to read, but it took us several weeks to put it together.

[SJS4]

Check out the monthly Dark Horse Presents model. They still keep it at 80 pages with no ads or previews for $7.99:

http://www.darkhorse.com/Comics/24-111/ ... resents-32" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One of my favorite comics each month. So many good stories and great storytellers.

[lorddunlow]

For me the page count doesn't matter (I guess if it was only 10-15 pages, but 20 vs. 22 vs. 24 is irrelevant to me).

It's the decompression that makes me feel cheated. A&A always feels like a meaty read. X-O (current arc excluded) always feels to short. Artwork like Cary Nord's issues really add to the enjoyment, but often the art is not to that level, so the decompressed story with good but not great art just doesn't feel worth $4 (for any publisher).

Overall, though, I always feel I get my money's worth from VEI.

[mateo107]

decompression makes all the difference. I remember a few years ago DC had Superman as a $3.99 comic with 40 pages, but in one issue James Robinson spent 8 pages (four consecutive 2-page spreads) of Superman trying to stop Braniac's falling ship from crashing. no dialogue, no narration, nothing. and that was supposed to be worth $1 more.

VEI for the most part gives me a satisfactory amount of story per issue, X-O sometimes not, but EW is really the only one I read and think not enough happened.

[Scarlet-Batman]

I used to have this problem when I first started reading comics again. They never felt like they justified their price tags.

Then someone told me to slow down and look at the art, rather than just viewing it out of the corner of my eye. The art really is half the story. This is doubly true as time goes on. Back in the 60's we had high page count comics but the art was simplistic. As time has marched on, page counts have decreased and the art has become stellar by comparison.

[shadow5555]

Just a quick observation (I agree that the prices versus returns suck) and books in the last ten years read too fast (even if you DO take the time to admire the art...)

However I noticed this as I read through my collection, certain writers (Moore, Ostrander, Morrison, Robinson) wrote long involved stories that took you upwards of 30 mins to read, no splash pages and other crap that the Image boys and their ilk perpetuated through the 90's. I'm reading The Ballad of Halo Jones right now and Alan Moore packed a massive amount of text into the few pages he had for each chapter.

Unfortunately the edict is faster pacing, less story, more action. Which is why other than valiant tpb's, I have one book in my pull still at the LCS. Way too much good stuff to read from before and not waste money on a book I can get done in 10 mins or less. Shame really. Also turning 37 in a few weeks and it dawned on me a few weeks ago, that I'm one of those old guys I used to see in the comic shop, man where has the time gone (I started collecting in the late 80's).

[Newton]

The length of the comics is not ideal, but I can live with it. I agree that the preview pages are annoying and to me they are salt in the wound. Don't take up 1/3 of a current comic to show me 1/4 of next weeks comic which will have 1/3 of it be 1/4 of a comic the month after that. Just make the actual book smaller and either pass the savings on to me or pocket it.

[lorddunlow]

The length of the comics is not ideal, but I can live with it. I agree that the preview pages are annoying and to me they are salt in the wound. Don't take up 1/3 of a current comic to show me 1/4 of next weeks comic which will have 1/3 of it be 1/4 of a comic the month after that. Just make the actual book smaller and either pass the savings on to me or pocket it.

THIS!

I understand why they do it, but I wish they wouldn't. For me they are just wasted pages.

[grendeljd]

The length of the comics is not ideal, but I can live with it. I agree that the preview pages are annoying and to me they are salt in the wound. Don't take up 1/3 of a current comic to show me 1/4 of next weeks comic which will have 1/3 of it be 1/4 of a comic the month after that. Just make the actual book smaller and either pass the savings on to me or pocket it.

THIS!

I understand why they do it, but I wish they wouldn't. For me they are just wasted pages.

It is a bit unfortunate when you are already buying most or all the Valiant titles, but I can forgive it for the sake of appealing to any newbies who may only be reading a couple of the books. Gotta grow the fanbase anyway you can, and I can get behind that. Even if I ignore the preview pages, I'd rather see them than other third party product placement advertisements, any day of the week.

As to making the book smaller instead, then you're getting into higher printing costs on a per page rate. I know from experience that bounds books have to be printed in page count clusters of 16 - not sure if this applies to comics as they are just loose sheets stapled together, but the 32 page count would point to that being in effect anyway...

[mateo107]

I know from experience that bounds books have to be printed in page count clusters of 16 - not sure if this applies to comics as they are just loose sheets stapled together, but the 32 page count would point to that being in effect anyway...

comics are generally 32, 40, 48, 64, 80, or 100 pages.

I remember when I was a kid there seemed to be mostly 32 page standard or double-sized 64-page issues. Annuals used to be 64 pages, then gradually 48 pages became more common and now that's often the biggest page count you'll see on the stands.

[grendeljd]

I know from experience that bounds books have to be printed in page count clusters of 16 - not sure if this applies to comics as they are just loose sheets stapled together, but the 32 page count would point to that being in effect anyway...

comics are generally 32, 40, 48, 64, 80, or 100 pages.

I remember when I was a kid there seemed to be mostly 32 page standard or double-sized 64-page issues. Annuals used to be 64 pages, then gradually 48 pages became more common and now that's often the biggest page count you'll see on the stands.

Agreed. I also loved finding those 80 page giant DC issues.

XO #1 was 40 pages. Now that I think about it, obviously in the case of comics you can alter the total page count by any multiple of 4, which would be the minimum per cut sheet.