Harbinger 24 Discussion

[pixierosa]

I was also surprised to learn of Kris' feelings about Flamingo. I didn't really see that in the storyline, other than in the perfect day dream sequence - but since that was a shared dreamscape, and Kris seemed surprised by the kiss, it made me think that it was more of Flamingo's influence. Otherwise, they didn't have much interaction that would endear one to the other. But it did serve as a way to explain how and why Kris was grieving the way she was.

There was also that scene in the diner with the two of them, just after the Renegades picked up Flamingo. I felt there was some connection in that scene.

Yes, but that felt more like the two of them coming to terms with each other and learning to become friends. They really had no other choice, any of them. They may not have chosen to be friends in the "outside" world but circumstances brought them together, forcing them to get along or potentially cease to be.

It's not a big deal; they could have had other moments away from the eye of the "camera" but none of what I've read made me think Kris was in love with Flamingo. (and being a feminist and kinda punky doesn't make her automatically gay). Kris' way has always been to push away the painful or icky emotions - we saw that even with how she reflected on what happened with her father's illness. She's smart and tries to rationalize things, compartmentalize them so they are easier to handle. She can try to be Spock, but she's not cold. By having Faith call her out on this pattern of behavior and forcing her to admit her feelings, Dysart makes her a lot more sympathetic. She feels responsible for Flamingo's death, just like the other's do. I imagine the other's might have been surprised at this - Kris was, after all, the one who brained Torque with a skateboard and drove a train into the ocean without displaying much concern outwardly (although we know that internally she struggled).

Good character development all around.

[jmatt]

Really enjoyed Faith becoming a more commanding personality rather than a glorified cheerleader.

Loved Peter's goodbyes to his renegade team - really well done.

Did anyone else's mind perk up when the Monk explaining the future of Psiots says to Harada you are the "Father of that"?

Couldn't help but think of Rai and the speculation that Father is Harada.

Also, I was a bit disappointed with Kris's reaction to Peter's possible death. It seemed like they were getting closer the past 2 issues - but I think it was just a defensive reaction by her - wanting to shield herself from being hurt by it.

+1 to this. But I kinda like that Kris never fully made her peace with Pete. Keeping it real rather than a teary farewell. As this issue underscored, things don't always end well. Sometimes they just end.

[pixierosa]

Yeah, DC made a big deal out of having Green Lantern be gay. And then it turned out to be the version of the character the very few people outside of the hardcore comic book fan community would recognize. In a completely rebooted continuity. Nice attempt, but they didn't stick the landing.

That's the good thing about how Valiant approaches anything out of the "norm" for the mass market, whether it be female leads, obesity, or LGBT characters: it's depicted not as an event but just a fact of life. Which it is. I would think that someone being able to harness electricity or fly is more astounding than being gay- no big whoop. Lots of gay or obese folks, but people that fly? That you should excited about

Hurrah for Valiant not pandering or using these commonplace issues as a way to garner attention.

[400yrs]

Awesome issue! But did anyone else find Harada's dialogue about shoving the Monk's remains up his behind a bit disturbing? An odd comment, I thought...lol

I had to read it a few times to make sure I read it correctly. Not many people like shoving things up their own butts. Except gerbils. Those are ok.

[QUARTZ]

Great issue. Some of the best fleshed out characters in comics right now. This issue certainly tugged at the heart strings and had a kick *SQUEE* confrontation between Harada and Peter to boot. I love that Harada mentioned the human cost of life from this, and Peter recognized it makes them both monsters, but Harada is the bigger evil, Peter is necessary evil. I liked that the monk shared his vision, and the new direction of the series seems set. What a good arc man, just so many story beats hitting at the right time. And everything the Bleeding Monk is saying about his vision and the future seems to make sense. Great characterization all around. I genuinely care for everyone in the Renegades. They feel real to me.

Oh and seeing the battle damage done to Peter and Harada...owww.

[jmatt]

necessary evil.

Now there's a great title for a follow-up mini. Harbinger: Necessary Evil.

[bygranddesign]

Really enjoyed Faith becoming a more commanding personality rather than a glorified cheerleader.

Loved Peter's goodbyes to his renegade team - really well done.

Did anyone else's mind perk up when the Monk explaining the future of Psiots says to Harada you are the "Father of that"?

Couldn't help but think of Rai and the speculation that Father is Harada.

Also, I was a bit disappointed with Kris's reaction to Peter's possible death. It seemed like they were getting closer the past 2 issues - but I think it was just a defensive reaction by her - wanting to shield herself from being hurt by it.

+1 to this. But I kinda like that Kris never fully made her peace with Pete. Keeping it real rather than a teary farewell. As this issue underscored, things don't always end well. Sometimes they just end.

agreed.

I always root for that more happy ending ... but in the end I appreciate the idea of subverting those expectations. Its much more challenging and makes me appreciate the complexities of the characters more.

[ilzuccone]

Really enjoyed Faith becoming a more commanding personality rather than a glorified cheerleader.

Loved Peter's goodbyes to his renegade team - really well done.

Did anyone else's mind perk up when the Monk explaining the future of Psiots says to Harada you are the "Father of that"?

Couldn't help but think of Rai and the speculation that Father is Harada.

Also, I was a bit disappointed with Kris's reaction to Peter's possible death. It seemed like they were getting closer the past 2 issues - but I think it was just a defensive reaction by her - wanting to shield herself from being hurt by it.

+1 to this. But I kinda like that Kris never fully made her peace with Pete. Keeping it real rather than a teary farewell. As this issue underscored, things don't always end well. Sometimes they just end.

agreed.

I always root for that more happy ending ... but in the end I appreciate the idea of subverting those expectations. Its much more challenging and makes me appreciate the complexities of the characters more.

+1

Also makes flamingos death more weighty. Makes root for them even more.

[lorddunlow]

I have to decide how much I liked this issue. My gut reaction was surprise that the team broke up and I'm okay with that. And generally speaking, I was pleased with it.

But the climax was less thrilling than I thought. BM shows up kinda deus ex machina and declares it to be over. When did he start deciding how the future would unfold? I'm not sure that I feel he is established enough as a character to be granted this role.

His zero issue was good, albeit it a little mumbo-jumbo-y, but when did he become the grand chess master with lines like "You have played your role and now it is over"? My sense of the character is that he was involved in the actions of Peter and Harada but not in control of them.

First of all, I thought we agreed to stop calling the Bleeding Monk "BM".

Secondly, I called this month's ago - Bleeding Monk is controlling all events. He's bending the universe to his will. Just re-read Bleeding Monk #0.

I also posted the following in this thread as part of my crazy theory:

2. The "Solar creating the universe" thing was a big thing in VH1, and I really think that Dino and crew plan on having a similar element in their universe - I know we don't have Solar, but we do have an extremely powerful character who literally has stated that he has chosen to shape the world as he sees fit - the Bleeding Monk.

[kjjohanson]

I'm concerned that the Bleeding Monk intervening to stop things from going in a direction that he doesn't want sets up the ongoing possibility of Deus Ex Machina moments in all titles that will negate any sort of drama in the VU. Unless we're looking at a VH1-Unity type crossover where he's essentially taken out of the picture. I think we'll have to have that sooner or later if there are going to be more huge events.

[kjjohanson]

Unless the Monk is Father…

[BugsySig]

I'm concerned that the Bleeding Monk intervening to stop things from going in a direction that he doesn't want sets up the ongoing possibility of Deus Ex Machina moments in all titles that will negate any sort of drama in the VU. Unless we're looking at a VH1-Unity type crossover where he's essentially taken out of the picture. I think we'll have to have that sooner or later if there are going to be more huge events.

But the Monk didn't actually stop anything. He intervened, but didn't stop Pete from trying to kill Harada or vise versa. He just talked to them and said they should stop because they've played their parts.

[jmatt]

I'm concerned that the Bleeding Monk intervening to stop things from going in a direction that he doesn't want sets up the ongoing possibility of Deus Ex Machina moments in all titles that will negate any sort of drama in the VU. Unless we're looking at a VH1-Unity type crossover where he's essentially taken out of the picture. I think we'll have to have that sooner or later if there are going to be more huge events.

I'll say again that I may not mind Bleeding Monk being given this role from time to time, but it has to be sold harder than it was in his zero issue. I'll have to read it again with hindsight.

[Captain Craig]

The Bleeding Monk says, and I quote;

"Let me tell you of the new future, child Toyo. You alone could have unlocked the science of the psiot mind. And so you have.

There will come an age when all humanity will have abilities beyond their current imagination, not just the activated few.

They will use their powers to explore inner & outer space at a staggering rate. And you are the father of that, Harada."

...

Dysart just set the table for a version of PSI-Lords to happen in the Valiant future universe. Boom.

When I first was reading it my mind when to the idea of Harada perhaps becoming Father, as in Rai.
It's been mentioned by others in Rai when speaking to Rai that, "Father can't be trusted", "Father will turn on you".
Harada is just that type individual who'll discard someone/thing for a bigger purpose he's deemed. The idea when I read it was tied to perhaps the notion that Harada had figured out a similar manner of conscious transference like Silk and was now the "ghost in the machine" and taken the name Father.

But, hey I like the Psi-Lords idea also.

[Phoenix8008]

The Bleeding Monk says, and I quote;

"Let me tell you of the new future, child Toyo. You alone could have unlocked the science of the psiot mind. And so you have.

There will come an age when all humanity will have abilities beyond their current imagination, not just the activated few.

They will use their powers to explore inner & outer space at a staggering rate. And you are the father of that, Harada."

...

Dysart just set the table for a version of PSI-Lords to happen in the Valiant future universe. Boom.

When I first was reading it my mind when to the idea of Harada perhaps becoming Father, as in Rai.
It's been mentioned by others in Rai when speaking to Rai that, "Father can't be trusted", "Father will turn on you".
Harada is just that type individual who'll discard someone/thing for a bigger purpose he's deemed. The idea when I read it was tied to perhaps the notion that Harada had figured out a similar manner of conscious transference like Silk and was now the "ghost in the machine" and taken the name Father.

But, hey I like the Psi-Lords idea also.

Heck, why not both!?

[jmatt]

Okay, upon rereading Bleeding Monk #0, I take back what I said about inadequate setup for his role in this issue.

One continuity question though: When Bleeding Monk departs the desiccated corpse of the NLoW, he appears as he originally was, a white man of Greek descent. When we next see him in the temple with his students, he appears as a withered man of Asian descent. But he doesn't transform his body until after he is killed and then gets buried during his 73 year meditation, upon which he reappears almost exactly as he did during the temple battle. Weird.

[grendeljd]

The Bleeding Monk says, and I quote;

"Let me tell you of the new future, child Toyo. You alone could have unlocked the science of the psiot mind. And so you have.

There will come an age when all humanity will have abilities beyond their current imagination, not just the activated few.

They will use their powers to explore inner & outer space at a staggering rate. And you are the father of that, Harada."

...

Dysart just set the table for a version of PSI-Lords to happen in the Valiant future universe. Boom.

When I first was reading it my mind when to the idea of Harada perhaps becoming Father, as in Rai.
It's been mentioned by others in Rai when speaking to Rai that, "Father can't be trusted", "Father will turn on you".
Harada is just that type individual who'll discard someone/thing for a bigger purpose he's deemed. The idea when I read it was tied to perhaps the notion that Harada had figured out a similar manner of conscious transference like Silk and was now the "ghost in the machine" and taken the name Father.

But, hey I like the Psi-Lords idea also.

In my mind, the Father reference is to the fact that here & now in the present day, Toyo has done the scientific work that will lead to psiots becoming what Bleeding Monk describes in the far future. The rest speaks to what psiots will become, which sounds very much like a take on PSI-Lords to me.

None of which rules out the idea that Toyo may be Father in RAI's Japan of 4001. I'm curious to see if that will be the case too.

[ilzuccone]

The Bleeding Monk says, and I quote;

"Let me tell you of the new future, child Toyo. You alone could have unlocked the science of the psiot mind. And so you have.

There will come an age when all humanity will have abilities beyond their current imagination, not just the activated few.

They will use their powers to explore inner & outer space at a staggering rate. And you are the father of that, Harada."

...

Dysart just set the table for a version of PSI-Lords to happen in the Valiant future universe. Boom.

When I first was reading it my mind when to the idea of Harada perhaps becoming Father, as in Rai.
It's been mentioned by others in Rai when speaking to Rai that, "Father can't be trusted", "Father will turn on you".
Harada is just that type individual who'll discard someone/thing for a bigger purpose he's deemed. The idea when I read it was tied to perhaps the notion that Harada had figured out a similar manner of conscious transference like Silk and was now the "ghost in the machine" and taken the name Father.

But, hey I like the Psi-Lords idea also.

In my mind, the Father reference is to the fact that here & now in the present day, Toyo has done the scientific work that will lead to psiots becoming what Bleeding Monk describes in the far future. The rest speaks to what psiots will become, which sounds very much like a take on PSI-Lords to me.

None of which rules out the idea that Toyo may be Father in RAI's Japan of 4001. I'm curious to see if that will be the case too.

Is it just me or have I not seen any psiots in rai yet?

[Captain Craig]

Well, RAI has only been 2 issues thus far and the focal point is on who exactly the person is that was murdered. What makes her so important as to be the first in centuries?

[BugsySig]

The Bleeding Monk says, and I quote;

"Let me tell you of the new future, child Toyo. You alone could have unlocked the science of the psiot mind. And so you have.

There will come an age when all humanity will have abilities beyond their current imagination, not just the activated few.

They will use their powers to explore inner & outer space at a staggering rate. And you are the father of that, Harada."

...

Dysart just set the table for a version of PSI-Lords to happen in the Valiant future universe. Boom.

When I first was reading it my mind when to the idea of Harada perhaps becoming Father, as in Rai.
It's been mentioned by others in Rai when speaking to Rai that, "Father can't be trusted", "Father will turn on you".
Harada is just that type individual who'll discard someone/thing for a bigger purpose he's deemed. The idea when I read it was tied to perhaps the notion that Harada had figured out a similar manner of conscious transference like Silk and was now the "ghost in the machine" and taken the name Father.

But, hey I like the Psi-Lords idea also.

In my mind, the Father reference is to the fact that here & now in the present day, Toyo has done the scientific work that will lead to psiots becoming what Bleeding Monk describes in the far future. The rest speaks to what psiots will become, which sounds very much like a take on PSI-Lords to me.

None of which rules out the idea that Toyo may be Father in RAI's Japan of 4001. I'm curious to see if that will be the case too.

Is it just me or have I not seen any psiots in rai yet?

I got the feeling that this future race of Psiots is a lot further out than 2000 years. Evolution like that, minus genetic manipulation of course, would take much longer.

[ilzuccone]

The Bleeding Monk says, and I quote;

"Let me tell you of the new future, child Toyo. You alone could have unlocked the science of the psiot mind. And so you have.

There will come an age when all humanity will have abilities beyond their current imagination, not just the activated few.

They will use their powers to explore inner & outer space at a staggering rate. And you are the father of that, Harada."

...

Dysart just set the table for a version of PSI-Lords to happen in the Valiant future universe. Boom.

When I first was reading it my mind when to the idea of Harada perhaps becoming Father, as in Rai.
It's been mentioned by others in Rai when speaking to Rai that, "Father can't be trusted", "Father will turn on you".
Harada is just that type individual who'll discard someone/thing for a bigger purpose he's deemed. The idea when I read it was tied to perhaps the notion that Harada had figured out a similar manner of conscious transference like Silk and was now the "ghost in the machine" and taken the name Father.

But, hey I like the Psi-Lords idea also.

In my mind, the Father reference is to the fact that here & now in the present day, Toyo has done the scientific work that will lead to psiots becoming what Bleeding Monk describes in the far future. The rest speaks to what psiots will become, which sounds very much like a take on PSI-Lords to me.

None of which rules out the idea that Toyo may be Father in RAI's Japan of 4001. I'm curious to see if that will be the case too.

Is it just me or have I not seen any psiots in rai yet?

I got the feeling that this future race of Psiots is a lot further out than 2000 years. Evolution like that, minus genetic manipulation of course, would take much longer.

sounds good to me. i'm easy to please

[Baramos]

Okay, upon rereading Bleeding Monk #0, I take back what I said about inadequate setup for his role in this issue.

One continuity question though: When Bleeding Monk departs the desiccated corpse of the NLoW, he appears as he originally was, a white man of Greek descent. When we next see him in the temple with his students, he appears as a withered man of Asian descent. But he doesn't transform his body until after he is killed and then gets buried during his 73 year meditation, upon which he reappears almost exactly as he did during the temple battle. Weird.

He changed his body before the first temple attack. When he was Greek it was before "mind changes the body itself." That was after he left the corpse of the ascetic.

I think the confusion you are getting is that the issue has multiple artists whose depiction of his Asian form is different from one another. His being a "new man" when he is dug up is not a physical difference, it is that he is now a seer who can see past and future together (his original power was simply that he was ageless/immortal).

[Dallow Spicer1]

Possibly the best single issue of the Harbinger series and THAT'S saying something! All the important salient points made already so I'll just say Josh Dysart at the top of his game, great to see Khari Evans back on the book, 5/5 !

[jmatt]

Okay, upon rereading Bleeding Monk #0, I take back what I said about inadequate setup for his role in this issue.

One continuity question though: When Bleeding Monk departs the desiccated corpse of the NLoW, he appears as he originally was, a white man of Greek descent. When we next see him in the temple with his students, he appears as a withered man of Asian descent. But he doesn't transform his body until after he is killed and then gets buried during his 73 year meditation, upon which he reappears almost exactly as he did during the temple battle. Weird.

He changed his body before the first temple attack. When he was Greek it was before "mind changes the body itself." That was after he left the corpse of the ascetic.

I have the issue in front of me. The part where he meditates himself into the blood soaked earth comes after the temple attack, not after he leaves the NLoW.

It's a quibble, but odd continuity. He leaves the ascetic as a Greek and we next see him as a withered Asian monk in the temple.

[Phoenix8008]

Okay, upon rereading Bleeding Monk #0, I take back what I said about inadequate setup for his role in this issue.

One continuity question though: When Bleeding Monk departs the desiccated corpse of the NLoW, he appears as he originally was, a white man of Greek descent. When we next see him in the temple with his students, he appears as a withered man of Asian descent. But he doesn't transform his body until after he is killed and then gets buried during his 73 year meditation, upon which he reappears almost exactly as he did during the temple battle. Weird.

He changed his body before the first temple attack. When he was Greek it was before "mind changes the body itself." That was after he left the corpse of the ascetic.

I have the issue in front of me. The part where he meditates himself into the blood soaked earth comes after the temple attack, not after he leaves the NLoW.

It's a quibble, but odd continuity. He leaves the ascetic as a Greek and we next see him as a withered Asian monk in the temple.

Isn't there like 1,000 years or more between those times though? Plenty of time to lose his hair and change his body slowly over time, right?