Book of Death: Legends of the Geomancer

String · Post by **String** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 9:11 pm

I agree with dunlow and Bugsy, this is quite the slight to those of us who buy digitally. We pay the same full price for a digital copy of a book as a hard copy of the same book so I don't know why they can't, say, offer an opportunity to buy a digital copy of Legends only after purchasing a digital copy of BOD #1?

I can understand to a degree their intent in perhaps wanting to create a collectible item, but I'm not concerned with that. I've always been more interested in what is between the covers rather than what's on the cover, so making it slightly more difficult for a portion of their readers to acquire this story (and ignoring an entirely credible market for the industry in the process) strikes me as very odd.

DirtbagSailor · Post by **DirtbagSailor** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:44 pm

I hope that this book is crazy exclusive, and that I have to fight tooth and nail to get my hands on a copy!

I want it to be difficult to get, and expect Diamond to damage 75% of the 500 books in circulation which means that only 8-9 copies are ever graded at 9.8!

Of course this won't be an issue for readers, since condition doesn't matter, just the stories and the art. Perhaps a few folks could organize a Skype reading schedule so that others who really want to enjoy the story (but NOT collect it) have the chance to do so.

nycjadie · Post by **nycjadie** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 12:14 am

Why Skype when you can live stream it on Periscope?

kjjohanson · Post by **kjjohanson** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 7:23 am

nycjadie wrote:Why Skype when you can live stream it on Periscope?

This made me think, there are tons of unboxing videos on youtube. Has anyone ever live-read a book on one?

DirtbagSailor · Post by **DirtbagSailor** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 7:35 am

kjjohanson wrote:
nycjadie wrote:Why Skype when you can live stream it on Periscope?
This made me think, there are tons of unboxing videos on youtube. Has anyone ever live-read a book on one?

We just might need to do exactly that. It's the right thing to do. After reading the comments of so many who want to read this book, but are also fearful or nervous that they might not get the chance to do so, it won't take much effort to provide a wonderful story-time session. Since collecting isn't an issue for those who claim to be "readers only" this is the perfect solution to any legit fears of missing out.

kjjohanson · Post by **kjjohanson** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 7:38 am

DirtbagSailor wrote:
kjjohanson wrote:
nycjadie wrote:Why Skype when you can live stream it on Periscope?
This made me think, there are tons of unboxing videos on youtube. Has anyone ever live-read a book on one?
We just might need to do exactly that. It's the right thing to do. After reading the comments of so many who want to read this, but are fearful or nervous that they might not get to, it won't take much effort to provide a wonderful story-time session. Since collecting isn't an issue for those who claim to be "readers only" this is the perfect solution to any legit fears of missing out.

Except that that would likely be considered piracy. If VEI wants their fans to be able to read the book, they should provide a way that doesn't entail the likely gouging of their readers by making it difficult to obtain. (I wasn't endorsing the idea, just curious as to whether anyone was aware that such a thing had been done.)

#ithoughtyouweredifferent

kjjohanson · Post by **kjjohanson** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:03 am

kjjohanson wrote:#ithoughtyouweredifferent

I figured I should clarify that the tag is mostly meant tongue in cheek. Yes, VEI has been generally very supportive of its fans, especially those on the board here. I just think this incentive mini is a bad idea that's going to leave pretty much everyone unhappy, and in the long run people (especially those that are not already followers of Valiant) will remember this moreso than all of the other positive stuff, which tends to be a little less visible. VEI may be providing a way for retailers to take on little risk by making the book heavily discounted and returnable, but it's unlikely that that lack of risk is going to be reflected in the price to the reader. Perhaps that means a drop in one-of-everything readers, if a scenario is created that makes that expensive. Perhaps it means backlash against retailers who are charging high prices for a book that essentially costs them no more than any other book on the shelf. Perhaps it means backlash against VEI for creating different classes of readers. I don't see who wins in the long run from this.

Overall Valiant has been good to its fans, but I can't ignore something like this. You place the bad on the scale with the good. It still tips in Valiant's favor, but a little less so.

DirtbagSailor · Post by **DirtbagSailor** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:08 am

kjjohanson wrote:Except that that would likely be considered piracy. If VEI wants their fans to be able to read the book, they should provide a way that doesn't entail the likely gouging of their readers by making it difficult to obtain. (I wasn't endorsing the idea, just curious as to whether anyone was aware that such a thing had been done.)

#ithoughtyouweredifferent

Lol, I am different. I like limited, HTF, and/or exclusive things; often for reason of them being limited, HTF, and/or exclusive.

A LOT of people are *SQUEE* about what Valiant does or doesn't do, and recently with the DMG and Movie announcements there appear to be a few different camps that fans are falling into. I don't think that everything needs to be available or easy to get, and the idea of having to work a bit to be one of the 500-1500 folks out there that are able to get their hands on a copy appeals to me. I like the challenge, and the internal reward of finally getting what I'm searching for. I'm also a 9.8+ snob, and am notorious for going after impossible to find Valiant books. Not so much into the reader copies or filling my collection with VF books.

Clearly, you are right about the piracy issue. I really don't think that Valiant will leave folks in the cold though, and a second printing is likely. I personally don't want the second printing; I want the first, and I plan to read digitally to keep my sweaty fingers off the pages.

Valiant WILL provide a way, as they always have. Fans are just fast to jump up without first having all the info (since Valiant doesn't want us to have all the info yet. NOT part of their strategy at this point in the plan), but I'm willing to bet that everyone who wants a copy will have the opportunity to do exactly that with no drama involved.

agent_graves · Post by **agent_graves** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:34 am

I work with a guy who reads his comics on *YouTube, (Banner The Incredible Hulk, Brandon Hex) for those *cough* readers only!!!

*Legends might be on there the week it's released.

agent_graves · Post by **agent_graves** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:39 am

DirtbagSailor wrote:Lol, I am different. I like limited, HTF, and/or exclusive things; often for reason of them being limited, HTF, and/or exclusive.

+1

10char

nycjadie · Post by **nycjadie** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 10:03 am

kjjohanson wrote:
DirtbagSailor wrote:
kjjohanson wrote:
nycjadie wrote:Why Skype when you can live stream it on Periscope?
This made me think, there are tons of unboxing videos on youtube. Has anyone ever live-read a book on one?
We just might need to do exactly that. It's the right thing to do. After reading the comments of so many who want to read this, but are fearful or nervous that they might not get to, it won't take much effort to provide a wonderful story-time session. Since collecting isn't an issue for those who claim to be "readers only" this is the perfect solution to any legit fears of missing out.
Except that that would likely be considered piracy. If VEI wants their fans to be able to read the book, they should provide a way that doesn't entail the likely gouging of their readers by making it difficult to obtain. (I wasn't endorsing the idea, just curious as to whether anyone was aware that such a thing had been done.)

#ithoughtyouweredifferent

Let's get Dino to read it through Periscope. Periscope videos disappear after 24 hours, reducing the piracy concern.

Tim · Post by **Tim** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 10:23 am

Are some of you guys being silly or can you really not differentiate "reader" from "collector"?

I consider myself a reader of comics as I only buy things i like to read. I save what I like but only because I think I might want to read it again and definitely not for collectable purposes. My stuff usually doesn't even get bagged and boarded except new books I get from DCBS and they're already in bags and boards. To me a collector is someone who buys books with future value in mind, pays close attention to condition both before buying and while in their care, and tracks down things like variant covers and the like.

DirtbagSailor wrote:I'm willing to bet that everyone who wants a copy will have the opportunity to do exactly that with no drama involved.

This totally. As tempting as it is to pile on with the folks who are upset about this (and if things pan out like the worst case scenario folks are talking about I'll be pretty upset too...worst case scenario being I have to pay more than cover price to read this story) I'm going to wait until either I hear of someone or I personally have difficulty getting a copy to read before I go off the deep end.

I cannot believe that VEI will leave people who just want to read the damned story out in the cold until I actually see it.

nycjadie · Post by **nycjadie** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 10:36 am

I think a collector and an investor are different animals. Collectors keep, investors want a return. Personally, I think I'm a reader, collector and investor, all rolled into one. I meticulously keep worthless books because I like them. I seek out rarities because I like them, but also to pay for my hobby. I read because I love to read.

BugsySig · Post by **BugsySig** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 10:43 am

String wrote:I agree with dunlow and Bugsy, this is quite the slight to those of us who buy digitally. We pay the same full price for a digital copy of a book as a hard copy of the same book so I don't know why they can't, say, offer an opportunity to buy a digital copy of Legends only after purchasing a digital copy of BOD #1?

I can understand to a degree their intent in perhaps wanting to create a collectible item, but I'm not concerned with that. I've always been more interested in what is between the covers rather than what's on the cover, so making it slightly more difficult for a portion of their readers to acquire this story (and ignoring an entirely credible market for the industry in the process) strikes me as very odd.

Thanks. That's exactly how I feel about it. I don't want to miss any of the story.

Tim wrote:Are some of you guys being silly or can you really not differentiate "reader" from "collector"?

I consider myself a reader of comics as I only buy things i like to read. I save what I like but only because I think I might want to read it again and definitely not for collectable purposes. My stuff usually doesn't even get bagged and boarded except new books I get from DCBS and they're already in bags and boards. To me a collector is someone who buys books with future value in mind, pays close attention to condition both before buying and while in their care, and tracks down things like variant covers and the like.

DirtbagSailor wrote:I'm willing to bet that everyone who wants a copy will have the opportunity to do exactly that with no drama involved.
This totally. As tempting as it is to pile on with the folks who are upset about this (and if things pan out like the worst case scenario folks are talking about I'll be pretty upset too...worst case scenario being I have to pay more than cover price to read this story) I'm going to wait until either I hear of someone or I personally have difficulty getting a copy to read before I go off the deep end.

I cannot believe that VEI will leave people who just want to read the damned story out in the cold until I actually see it.

I agree with this as well. I suppose it's not dissimilar to exclusive DVD content/deleted scenes you only get if you buy the DVD. And eventually (usually sooner rather than later) the same content is made available on YouTube or the like by the makers of the film.

I am assuming this will happen with this book in much the same way. However, every indication from press releases and solicitations are that the book will NOT be released digitally or collected for the trade. This could change, but then I think it's bad business to lie about distribution methods just to try and increase sales. That *SQUEE* off consumers and retailers alike.

geocarr · Post by **geocarr** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 10:47 am

nycjadie wrote:I think a collector and an investor are different animals. Collectors keep, investors want a return. Personally, I think I'm a reader, collector and investor, all rolled into one. I meticulously keep worthless books because I like them. I seek out rarities because I like them, but also to pay for my hobby. I read because I love to read.

+1 but I'm not sure which of the 3 I am good at sometimes.

agent_graves · Post by **agent_graves** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:44 am

Tim wrote:Are some of you guys being silly or can you really not differentiate "reader" from "collector"?

Ain't nobody being silly, some people go hard, (variants, cgc 9.8, completist) some don't (no bag n board, never buy variants) but, to me, it's really this simple, if you're buying comics on a regular basis, and they are bagged and boarded, and placed in a box inside your closet, you collect comics. If someone can come to your house, and you can pull out a box of comics, you collect comics, period. IDGAF what kind of shape they're in, you're still collecting them.

This notion that because you don't take care of your *SQUEE*, or care about exclusives or variants, your not a collector, is idiotic, wtf are you guys shying away from, if being labeled a collector of comic-books, bothers you, then why bother?

Tim · Post by **Tim** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 2:00 pm

agent_graves wrote:
Tim wrote:Are some of you guys being silly or can you really not differentiate "reader" from "collector"?

Ain't nobody being silly, some people go hard, (variants, cgc 9.8, completist) some don't (no bag n board, never buy variants) but, to me, it's really this simple, if you're buying comics on a regular basis, and they are bagged and boarded, and placed in a box inside your closet, you collect comics. If someone can come to your house, and you can pull out a box of comics, you collect comics, period. IDGAF what kind of shape they're in, you're still collecting them.

This notion that because you don't take care of your *SQUEE*, or care about exclusives or variants, your not a collector, is idiotic, wtf are you guys shying away from, if being labeled a collector of comic-books, bothers you, then why bother?

I have a closet full of clothes. I buy new clothes on a regular basis. They're all on hangers or in drawers. If you come over to my house I can bring a pile of them out to show you. I suppose I'm a clothes collector?

Holding on to something for a completely utilitarian purpose is different than maintaining a collection.

Also, check your tone, noob.

depluto · Post by **depluto** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 2:07 pm

What if you read a collection?

Tim · Post by **Tim** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 2:11 pm

depluto wrote:What if you read a collection?

You're still a collector. If I have a closet full of designer clothes that I buy for the purpose of owning something rare and limited but I happen to wear them sometimes I'm still a collector. It's all about intent, I suppose.

Trekkie / trekker......

Just realized how absurd much of this conversation is....

How internet of us!!!

paradise · Post by **paradise** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 2:19 pm

DirtbagSailor wrote:
Clearly, you are right about the piracy issue. I really don't think that Valiant will leave folks in the cold though, and a second printing is likely. I personally don't want the second printing; I want the first, and I plan to read digitally to keep my sweaty fingers off the pages.

Valiant WILL provide a way, as they always have. Fans are just fast to jump up without first having all the info (since Valiant doesn't want us to have all the info yet. NOT part of their strategy at this point in the plan), but I'm willing to bet that everyone who wants a copy will have the opportunity to do exactly that with no drama involved.

I don't know about that. This whole experiment ONLY works if VEI commits to it 100%. I see something a year down the road or later, nothing while it's happening. I could be wrong, and don't have any insider knowledge.

BTW, I have known about this for a while, and have had conversations with Dinesh and Atom about this. I was very apprehensive in the beginning but they have managed to convince me that this is important to their growth.

Here is simple math. The key word is "penetration" (and not in that way, get your mind out of the gutter). It refers to percentage of stores out of all Diamond accounts that order a particular title. We used to get penetration numbers through a trade publication, and they made me cringe all the time. Books like Flash and Green Lantern only had a 75-80% penetration rate. Not every comic book store carries FLASH!!! (curse under my breath at comic book retailers in general for being less than intelligent). Imagine what VEI's numbers are like. I would guesstimate 15-20%. Now imagine if by having fans ask for these books increases it by just 10%. That would add 50% to orders of Book of Death. Do you see how GIANT this is?

BugsySig · Post by **BugsySig** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 2:50 pm

Tim wrote:
agent_graves wrote:
Tim wrote:Are some of you guys being silly or can you really not differentiate "reader" from "collector"?

Ain't nobody being silly, some people go hard, (variants, cgc 9.8, completist) some don't (no bag n board, never buy variants) but, to me, it's really this simple, if you're buying comics on a regular basis, and they are bagged and boarded, and placed in a box inside your closet, you collect comics. If someone can come to your house, and you can pull out a box of comics, you collect comics, period. IDGAF what kind of shape they're in, you're still collecting them.

This notion that because you don't take care of your *SQUEE*, or care about exclusives or variants, your not a collector, is idiotic, wtf are you guys shying away from, if being labeled a collector of comic-books, bothers you, then why bother?
I have a closet full of clothes. I buy new clothes on a regular basis. They're all on hangers or in drawers. If you come over to my house I can bring a pile of them out to show you. I suppose I'm a clothes collector?

Holding on to something for a completely utilitarian purpose is different than maintaining a collection.

Also, check your tone, noob.

Seriously. I have some VH1 books and the initial launch VEI number ones in my closet. The latter were mostly to support the launch than to have a collection.

I read everything digitally from VEI and I'm getting boned in this deal. I'm already getting boned by paying the same amount as someone who gets an actual, physical item. And now I can't read a part of a story I've read EVERY page of since its inception unless I pay even MORE for a physical copy I don't want to possess.

Whatever...one day when all comics are digital, I guess they'll figure out a way to screw people over in that format too. That's just business I guess. I just thought VEI wasn't like that. Apparently they want more market penetration...so why, as you said earlier, alienate an entire segment of their market to do so?

Ricomortis · Post by **Ricomortis** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 3:08 pm

DirtbagSailor wrote:I hope that this book is crazy exclusive, and that I have to fight tooth and nail to get my hands on a copy!

I want it to be difficult to get, and expect Diamond to damage 75% of the 500 books in circulation which means that only 8-9 copies are ever graded at 9.8!

Of course this won't be an issue for readers, since condition doesn't matter, just the stories and the art. Perhaps a few folks could organize a Skype reading schedule so that others who really want to enjoy the story (but NOT collect it) have the chance to do so.

Everyone is crying... Well there isn't a LCS within 100 miles of me. Talk about a challenge to get anything.

jeremycoe · Post by **jeremycoe** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 3:12 pm

BugsySig wrote:
Tim wrote:
agent_graves wrote:
Tim wrote:Are some of you guys being silly or can you really not differentiate "reader" from "collector"?

Ain't nobody being silly, some people go hard, (variants, cgc 9.8, completist) some don't (no bag n board, never buy variants) but, to me, it's really this simple, if you're buying comics on a regular basis, and they are bagged and boarded, and placed in a box inside your closet, you collect comics. If someone can come to your house, and you can pull out a box of comics, you collect comics, period. IDGAF what kind of shape they're in, you're still collecting them.

This notion that because you don't take care of your *SQUEE*, or care about exclusives or variants, your not a collector, is idiotic, wtf are you guys shying away from, if being labeled a collector of comic-books, bothers you, then why bother?
I have a closet full of clothes. I buy new clothes on a regular basis. They're all on hangers or in drawers. If you come over to my house I can bring a pile of them out to show you. I suppose I'm a clothes collector?

Holding on to something for a completely utilitarian purpose is different than maintaining a collection.

Also, check your tone, noob.
Seriously. I have some VH1 books and the initial launch VEI number ones in my closet. The latter were mostly to support the launch than to have a collection.

I read everything digitally from VEI and I'm getting boned in this deal. I'm already getting boned by paying the same amount as someone who gets an actual, physical item. And now I can't read a part of a story I've read EVERY page of since its inception unless I pay even MORE for a physical copy I don't want to possess.

Whatever...one day when all comics are digital, I guess they'll figure out a way to screw people over in that format too. That's just business I guess. I just thought VEI wasn't like that. Apparently they want more market penetration...so why, as you said earlier, alienate an entire segment of their market to do so?

What about the online-only stories that have been released? I can ONLY read those digitally. What if I want to read phyical copies (without printing them myself)?

Ricomortis · Post by **Ricomortis** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 3:18 pm

DirtbagSailor wrote:
kjjohanson wrote:Except that that would likely be considered piracy. If VEI wants their fans to be able to read the book, they should provide a way that doesn't entail the likely gouging of their readers by making it difficult to obtain. (I wasn't endorsing the idea, just curious as to whether anyone was aware that such a thing had been done.)

#ithoughtyouweredifferent
Lol, I am different. I like limited, HTF, and/or exclusive things; often for reason of them being limited, HTF, and/or exclusive.

A LOT of people are *SQUEE* about what Valiant does or doesn't do, and recently with the DMG and Movie announcements there appear to be a few different camps that fans are falling into. I don't think that everything needs to be available or easy to get, and the idea of having to work a bit to be one of the 500-1500 folks out there that are able to get their hands on a copy appeals to me. I like the challenge, and the internal reward of finally getting what I'm searching for. I'm also a 9.8+ snob, and am notorious for going after impossible to find Valiant books. Not so much into the reader copies or filling my collection with VF books.

Clearly, you are right about the piracy issue. I really don't think that Valiant will leave folks in the cold though, and a second printing is likely. I personally don't want the second printing; I want the first, and I plan to read digitally to keep my sweaty fingers off the pages.

Valiant WILL provide a way, as they always have. Fans are just fast to jump up without first having all the info (since Valiant doesn't want us to have all the info yet. NOT part of their strategy at this point in the plan), but I'm willing to bet that everyone who wants a copy will have the opportunity to do exactly that with no drama involved.

DBS

We think ALOT alike.

I'm not in this to "play"... I found a company I loved 25 years ago and I put my money where my mouth is. I read & I collect. Period. I don't give a flying *SQUEE* what anybody else thinks about my passion and multiple Pre-Unity Sets (which I'm sure many think I am crazy, oh well).

Rico

Tim · Post by **Tim** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 3:30 pm

Ricomortis wrote:I'm not in this to "play"... I found a company I loved 25 years ago and I put my money where my mouth is. I read & I collect. Period. I don't give a flying *SQUEE* what anybody else thinks about my passion and multiple Pre-Unity Sets (which I'm sure many think I am crazy, oh well).

And that is what it's all about. Some people get that fire in their souls by collecting high grade books or original art. It ENHANCES their lives and that is beautiful. Some people don't, and that's ok, too. The bottom line is DO WHAT ENHANCES YOUR LIFE.

I have a sizable collection of commissions and some original art that I am having second thoughts about continuing to own. I wonder if I couldn't take that Silver Surfer or Flash page down to Kinkos and and get a copy to frame on the wall and sell the original and enjoy the artwork the same. I'm pretty sure I can and I'm likely thinking I will. I can't justify having something on my wall that I might glance at three or four times a year that someone else would positively treasure (and pay me perhaps a lot of money for). The same about commisions at cons. I have pretty much stopped getting stuff simply because apart from the moment I receive it, I get no satisfaction out of owning it. I'd rather scrounge through quarter-bins.

ValiantFans.com Board - Since 2004

Book of Death: Legends of the Geomancer

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