Book of Death: Legends of the Geomancer

[lorddunlow]

Apparently they want more market penetration...so why, as you said earlier, alienate an entire segment of their market to do so?

That's simple. They're gambling that the portion alienated will be smaller than the portion gained.

They haven't lost me as a customer with this ridiculous gimmick, but they've lost some of my fanatical support. My fanatical support isn't worth much, so if they gain one new reader in my area, that's a win for them.

I don't blame them. I just don't like it.

[paradise]

That's simple. They're gambling that the portion alienated will be smaller than the portion gained.
They haven't lost me as a customer with this ridiculous gimmick, but they've lost some of my fanatical support. My fanatical support isn't worth much, so if they gain one new reader in my area, that's a win for them.
I don't blame them. I just don't like it.

You are probably right, at least partially. Every decision of a business is a risk, and every decision is weighed against that risk. Yes there is a risk of a few people quitting outright, and a few becoming less enthusiastic. But guess what, business' job is to grow, not keep the same fan base. There is a natural attrition always, and trust me, as a result of this, there won't be anything more than a natural attrition. But the potential to have that book in front of a lot of new people, many for the first time as a Valiant title, can not be dismissed.

At least they are doing something different. And knowing Dinesh and Co., it's not the last time. The original Valiant crew did a lot of things that were new, and VEI is always trying to go outside the box. This is the first of many ways, I think.

[lorddunlow]

That's simple. They're gambling that the portion alienated will be smaller than the portion gained.
They haven't lost me as a customer with this ridiculous gimmick, but they've lost some of my fanatical support. My fanatical support isn't worth much, so if they gain one new reader in my area, that's a win for them.
I don't blame them. I just don't like it.

You are probably right, at least partially. Every decision of a business is a risk, and every decision is weighed against that risk. Yes there is a risk of a few people quitting outright, and a few becoming less enthusiastic. But guess what, business' job is to grow, not keep the same fan base. There is a natural attrition always, and trust me, as a result of this, there won't be anything more than a natural attrition. But the potential to have that book in front of a lot of new people, many for the first time as a Valiant title, can not be dismissed.

At least they are doing something different. And knowing Dinesh and Co., it's not the last time. The original Valiant crew did a lot of things that were new, and VEI is always trying to go outside the box. This is the first of many ways, I think.

What he said.

It still rubs me the wrong way. I'll feel a lot better about it if I can convince my LCS to get enough for me to have a copy of each.

[paradise]

I'll feel a lot better about it if I can convince my LCS to get enough for me to have a copy of each.

Explain the incentive and discounts to them and tell them you will pay X for 1 of each book (or cover) and they keep the rest, and it's 100% returnable.

If your retailer says no, I give you my permission to slap him/her upside their head and walk out of the store.

[lorddunlow]

I'll feel a lot better about it if I can convince my LCS to get enough for me to have a copy of each.

Explain the incentive and discounts to them and tell them you will pay X for 1 of each book (or cover) and they keep the rest, and it's 100% returnable.

If your retailer says no, I give you my permission to slap him/her upside their head and walk out of the store.

I haven't even had a chance to talk to him about it yet, so we'll see.

[ilzuccone]

jesus christ can me get back on topic and finally decide what a collector is and isn't?!

[lorddunlow]

jesus christ can me get back on topic and finally decide what a collector is and isn't?!

[paradise]

jesus christ can me get back on topic and finally decide what a collector is and isn't?!

You mean tax collector?

[agent_graves]

Are some of you guys being silly or can you really not differentiate "reader" from "collector"?

Ain't nobody being silly, some people go hard, (variants, cgc 9.8, completist) some don't (no bag n board, never buy variants) but, to me, it's really this simple, if you're buying comics on a regular basis, and they are bagged and boarded, and placed in a box inside your closet, you collect comics. If someone can come to your house, and you can pull out a box of comics, you collect comics, period. IDGAF what kind of shape they're in, you're still collecting them.

This notion that because you don't take care of your *SQUEE*, or care about exclusives or variants, your not a collector, is idiotic, wtf are you guys shying away from, if being labeled a collector of comic-books, bothers you, then why bother?

I have a closet full of clothes. I buy new clothes on a regular basis. They're all on hangers or in drawers. If you come over to my house I can bring a pile of them out to show you. I suppose I'm a clothes collector?

Holding on to something for a completely utilitarian purpose is different than maintaining a collection.

Also, check your tone, noob.

Nope, not feeling your clothes analogy, sneakers would of been more appropriate, because people YouTube their sneaker collections, all the time, key word, collection. You speak of maintaining a collection, as if after their put away, it's a lot of upkeep, but again, for you, the maintenance is what differentiates the two. At this point man, it is what it is, there has been a lot of differintiating opinions on this topic, in this thread, we're on differing sides, no more no less. As far as my tone, that *SQUEE* was laughable, so thats what I did.

[ilzuccone]

Are some of you guys being silly or can you really not differentiate "reader" from "collector"?

Ain't nobody being silly, some people go hard, (variants, cgc 9.8, completist) some don't (no bag n board, never buy variants) but, to me, it's really this simple, if you're buying comics on a regular basis, and they are bagged and boarded, and placed in a box inside your closet, you collect comics. If someone can come to your house, and you can pull out a box of comics, you collect comics, period. IDGAF what kind of shape they're in, you're still collecting them.

This notion that because you don't take care of your *SQUEE*, or care about exclusives or variants, your not a collector, is idiotic, wtf are you guys shying away from, if being labeled a collector of comic-books, bothers you, then why bother?

I have a closet full of clothes. I buy new clothes on a regular basis. They're all on hangers or in drawers. If you come over to my house I can bring a pile of them out to show you. I suppose I'm a clothes collector?

Holding on to something for a completely utilitarian purpose is different than maintaining a collection.

Also, check your tone, noob.

Nope, not feeling your clothes analogy, sneakers would of been more appropriate, because people YouTube their sneaker collections, all the time, key word, collection. You speak of maintaining a collection, as if after their put away, it's a lot of upkeep, but again, for you, the maintenance is what differentiates the two. At this point man, it is what it is, there has been a lot of differintiating opinions on this topic, in this thread, we're on differing sides, no more no less. As far as my tone, that *SQUEE* was laughable, so thats what I did.

ah thank goodness. back on track

[ilzuccone]

jesus christ can me get back on topic and finally decide what a collector is and isn't?!

You mean tax collector?

you can thank those dick hats for my light purchase on free comic day. i'm going to be paying them monthly for years.

[paradise]

jesus christ can me get back on topic and finally decide what a collector is and isn't?!

You mean tax collector?

you can thank those dick hats for my light purchase on free comic day. i'm going to be paying them monthly for years.

Booooo

[agent_graves]

jesus christ can me get back on topic and finally decide what a collector is and isn't?!

Honestly, I thought we was past that yesterday, but when people come late to the discussion, sh!t happens, but I agree, it's time to move on. It would be nice to see this much passion and discussion about the new issues of Divinity and Ninjak, no where near as much traffic in those threads.

[kjjohanson]

I'll feel a lot better about it if I can convince my LCS to get enough for me to have a copy of each.

Explain the incentive and discounts to them and tell them you will pay X for 1 of each book (or cover) and they keep the rest, and it's 100% returnable.

If your retailer says no, I give you my permission to slap him/her upside their head and walk out of the store.

Don't you think it's problematic that readers have to act as salespeople for merchandise that they're going to have to pay a premium for?

[ilzuccone]

jesus christ can me get back on topic and finally decide what a collector is and isn't?!

Honestly, I thought we was past that yesterday, but when people come late to the discussion, sh!t happens, but I agree, it's time to move on. It would be nice to see this much passion and discussion about the new issues of Divinity and Ninjak, no where near as much traffic in those threads.

so true. if anything this marketing idea has created buzz

[BugsySig]

That's simple. They're gambling that the portion alienated will be smaller than the portion gained.
They haven't lost me as a customer with this ridiculous gimmick, but they've lost some of my fanatical support. My fanatical support isn't worth much, so if they gain one new reader in my area, that's a win for them.
I don't blame them. I just don't like it.

You are probably right, at least partially. Every decision of a business is a risk, and every decision is weighed against that risk. Yes there is a risk of a few people quitting outright, and a few becoming less enthusiastic. But guess what, business' job is to grow, not keep the same fan base. There is a natural attrition always, and trust me, as a result of this, there won't be anything more than a natural attrition. But the potential to have that book in front of a lot of new people, many for the first time as a Valiant title, can not be dismissed.

At least they are doing something different. And knowing Dinesh and Co., it's not the last time. The original Valiant crew did a lot of things that were new, and VEI is always trying to go outside the box. This is the first of many ways, I think.

Obviously they have access to the numbers and we do not, but I feel like VEI might be underestimating the digital market. When you look at the yearly numbers for Digital vs Diamond, it's a pretty impressive number. Over 10% of all comicbook sales in 2013 were digital ($90 million out of $870 million), with that number and percentage only increasing (that was up from $25 million in 2011).

[ilzuccone]

I'll feel a lot better about it if I can convince my LCS to get enough for me to have a copy of each.

Explain the incentive and discounts to them and tell them you will pay X for 1 of each book (or cover) and they keep the rest, and it's 100% returnable.

If your retailer says no, I give you my permission to slap him/her upside their head and walk out of the store.

Don't you think it's problematic that readers have to act as salespeople for merchandise that they're going to have to pay a premium for?

I'll be honest. If my LCS wasn't collector's paradise i would probably not bother them about this. That's just who I am.

[BugsySig]

I'll feel a lot better about it if I can convince my LCS to get enough for me to have a copy of each.

Explain the incentive and discounts to them and tell them you will pay X for 1 of each book (or cover) and they keep the rest, and it's 100% returnable.

If your retailer says no, I give you my permission to slap him/her upside their head and walk out of the store.

Don't you think it's problematic that readers have to act as salespeople for merchandise that they're going to have to pay a premium for?

I'll be honest. If my LCS wasn't collector's paradise i would probably not bother them about this. That's just who I am.

Mine too (I buy all my digital comics through their digital storefront)

[DirtbagSailor]

Here is simple math. The key word is "penetration" (and not in that way, get your mind out of the gutter). It refers to percentage of stores out of all Diamond accounts that order a particular title. We used to get penetration numbers through a trade publication, and they made me cringe all the time. Books like Flash and Green Lantern only had a 75-80% penetration rate. Not every comic book store carries FLASH!!! (curse under my breath at comic book retailers in general for being less than intelligent). Imagine what VEI's numbers are like. I would guesstimate 15-20%. Now imagine if by having fans ask for these books increases it by just 10%. That would add 50% to orders of Book of Death. Do you see how GIANT this is?

I do Ed. We post and discuss sales numbers in different threads each month with certain folks crying "doom doom gloomy doom" but when Valiant make a strategically smart move to increase those numbers people are quick to again cry "doom doom gloomy doom".

I fully see the logic behind the maneuver, and will be first in line to participate.

[DirtbagSailor]

...those dick hats...

[BugsySig]

Here is simple math. The key word is "penetration" (and not in that way, get your mind out of the gutter). It refers to percentage of stores out of all Diamond accounts that order a particular title. We used to get penetration numbers through a trade publication, and they made me cringe all the time. Books like Flash and Green Lantern only had a 75-80% penetration rate. Not every comic book store carries FLASH!!! (curse under my breath at comic book retailers in general for being less than intelligent). Imagine what VEI's numbers are like. I would guesstimate 15-20%. Now imagine if by having fans ask for these books increases it by just 10%. That would add 50% to orders of Book of Death. Do you see how GIANT this is?

I do Ed. We post and discuss sales numbers in different threads each month with certain folks crying "doom doom gloomy doom" but when Valiant make a strategically smart move to increase those numbers people are quick to again cry "doom doom gloomy doom".

I fully see the logic behind the maneuver, and will be first in line to participate.

I have to point out I am often the first person to defend any and all of VALIANTs sales numbers in those discussions agains the doom-and-gloomers.

And stating my unhappiness over being excluded from a story in the VALIANT universe is hardly doom-and-glooming.

Of course the Negative Nancy's are always going to be negative, but I think most of us are discerning enough to understand the difference between that and a legitimate gripe of a consumer.

Ed is right, they are taking the risk of missing out on my money in the hopes of gaining more readers over all. But given the movie news, etc, lately I think that is more likely to produce new (and sustained) readers over time than an artificially inflated "hot" comic most likely to appeal only to the most avid of current fans and a handful of speculators.

Just my

[paradise]

Ed is right, they are taking the risk of missing out on my money in the hopes of gaining more readers over all. But given the movie news, etc, lately I think that is more likely to produce new (and sustained) readers over time than an artificially inflated "hot" comic most likely to appeal only to the most avid of current fans and a handful of speculators.

Just my

Hmm, I still think the point is missed. Once a retailer orders those 25 (or 50, 100) copies and has them in the store, the idea is that he'll try to promote them, because they are his best margin in the store. All other comics cost him $2 or more. These cost him 80 cents. if they have ANY brain at all, they want to make $3.20 on a $4 book instead of returning it. That's the hope. And that is what makes new readers. so it's not a hot comic, it's a fight for ANY rack space. Most stores don't stock vei at all. This may get them One placing. Which may get them another one as other customers start asking.

[BugsySig]

Ed is right, they are taking the risk of missing out on my money in the hopes of gaining more readers over all. But given the movie news, etc, lately I think that is more likely to produce new (and sustained) readers over time than an artificially inflated "hot" comic most likely to appeal only to the most avid of current fans and a handful of speculators.

Just my

Hmm, I still think the point is missed. Once a retailer orders those 25 (or 50, 100) copies and has them in the store, the idea is that he'll try to promote them, because they are his best margin in the store. All other comics cost him $2 or more. These cost him 80 cents. if they have ANY brain at all, they want to make $3.20 on a $4 book instead of returning it. That's the hope. And that is what makes new readers. so it's not a hot comic, it's a fight for ANY rack space. Most stores don't stock vei at all. This may get them One placing. Which may get them another one as other customers start asking.

I understand that strategy as well, Ed, and I'm all for getting the books in front of as many readers as possible. But over the past three years VEI has done just about every promotion and incentive imaginable to do so, from variant covers to plus editions to pull box exclusives to returnability, and yet the overall readership has not grown significantly, if at all.

Perhaps these incentives have prevented loss of readership, in which case would be a modest success. But as the vast majority of us have said from very early on, only movies or TV shows were going to push readership beyond its current levels. Now that that has happened (and granted the films are still at least 2 years off), I am skeptical as to how this strategy appeals to retailers any more than the incentives they have already tried, and which haven't alienated large sections of their readership.

VEI could just have easily used one of its other incentive strategies to increase orders and put Book of Death on the shelves. But the strategy here includes the creation of a "hot" book, as specifically stated by VEI. Meanwhile, movie news and future movie releases will IMHO create just as many "hot," low print run back issues as this strategy is likely to produce.

[lorddunlow]

Ed is right, they are taking the risk of missing out on my money in the hopes of gaining more readers over all. But given the movie news, etc, lately I think that is more likely to produce new (and sustained) readers over time than an artificially inflated "hot" comic most likely to appeal only to the most avid of current fans and a handful of speculators.

Just my

Hmm, I still think the point is missed. Once a retailer orders those 25 (or 50, 100) copies and has them in the store, the idea is that he'll try to promote them, because they are his best margin in the store. All other comics cost him $2 or more. These cost him 80 cents. if they have ANY brain at all, they want to make $3.20 on a $4 book instead of returning it. That's the hope. And that is what makes new readers. so it's not a hot comic, it's a fight for ANY rack space. Most stores don't stock vei at all. This may get them One placing. Which may get them another one as other customers start asking.

Again, Ed, you're looking at this from a retailer perspective (understandably). I totally agree with your assessment of this deal for retailers. But a few things you need to take into consideration:

1. You live and run your store in Southern California. You, Elveen, and many others have waxed poetic about how vibrant the comics retail market is there (comic stores everywhere, lots of unique niche stores, lots of choice, selection among many stores conveniently located to each individual, etc.) - that is a pocket of the world that is a fantasy for most comic readers/collectors. Reality for most is we are lucky to have more than one crappy store. If we only have one, then we have no leverage to pressure our LCS owners (if we can even speak to them). We really have no power over that situation as consumers other than mail order which means we won't be reading this story on day of release. You talked about working to get this product instead of whining. If I go to both of my local LCSs and try to talk them into ordering and they say no (I'm not willing to buy 25 copies of BoD #1 myself just to get this book, that's not being averse to work, that's not being logical - I don't need 25 copies, nor do I want to pay that much for the privilege of reading this story as there is no guarantee either store will sell them to me at cost) then what recourse do I have to read it on the day of release?

2. As kjjohanson pointed out earlier, this promotion is geared toward making us (the fans they already have loyally supporting the company) their salespeople. That's fine, if they want to have me fill out a W-4 and put me on the payroll - I'll even sign a contract that they pay me in VEI comics shipped to my house on day of release. But I'm not their employee. I shouldn't have to work to help them sell product (which we have ALL already been doing as fans of the line since day one) in order to read one of their series. That's a ridiculous expectation.

3. This is just business. But it for the LCS as well. My preferred LCS props his business up mostly with the gaming community. Most of his floor space is devoted to gaming and he sells food to them while they play. A lot of them read comics too, but the main sales are from card games and such. You may say "well, he's not a comics retailer" and you may be right, but I can't control the market forces and interests of my own community. I'm honestly surprised he's able to keep the place open, the rest of the area he is in is a ghost town of closed businesses (I'll show you some pictures later today). So, I applaud him for managing to keep a business profitable at all and still do what he loves which is to sell comics. He hates the gaming stuff. He has to know it for his customers, but comics is his passion. There just aren't enough readers for him to do that solely. To give you an idea, there are so few subscribers that all the subs for the week (and really several weeks as many of us only make it in sporadically) fit under the cash register counter. I would estimate there are about 15-20 subscribers (I bet you have that many VEI only from this site alone!) in his store. I'm the only one who reads VEI. He tells me that many have tried them, and he really enjoys them himself and has pushed them some, but no one sticks with them for monthlies. He says the trades sell great (and I see this by the turn over on the shelves), but no one is committed to singles. He ordered about 20 or so copies of Unity (he only qualified for one incentive cover which he passed along to me at cover price). He pushed them hard because he didn't want to have to return them. He told me he sold a lot more than he expected, but he still returned 10 copies. He was out that capital while they sat on his shelf. It also caused him not to qualify for the Unity 3d (or some book - my memory is fuzzy on that one) because there was a requirement to order more than what was ordered for Unity #1. Had he ordered his typical order for Unity, he would have qualified for the book easily, but since he ordered way more than typical there was no way to justify it. For him, it is not good business to tie up capital in books he likely won't sell just to get me a copy of a book. It is just business.

[JonesyAZ]

In the past, I would have been angry with this whole idea. But folks, sometimes including myself, have accepted purchasing one or more of the flood of regular and incentive/hard-to-get variants out there in the market: and those variants and/or incentive books are usually the same internal content but with a new cover.

I am actually excited about this because it is an incentive book that rewards "the hunt" with a unique book. It's kind of like the pullbox variants of Rai 1 & 5 and Dr. Mirage 1; a variant that gives you exclusive content.

I think if this becomes a success, maybe other publishers with pay attention and start offering variant books that have exclusive content within instead of just a different cover. Who knows? As I've said previously in this thread, I think everyone's points are valid and this movement is already a success because we're talking about it