Book of Death: Legends of the Geomancer

[Elveen]

Are Book of Death #2-#4 going to be returnable as well?

This is the $100,000 question.

If they don't do 80% discounts and don't allow returns for LCS for 2-4, then even some of the people who do manage to get a copy of LotG #1, won't be able to read the rest of the damn story!

Realistically, what I figure will happen is VEI gets the buzz they want out of this, prop up their numbers for BoD #1 (and likely #2-4 as well, although not as much), (hopefully) add some to the readership to make up for or exceed the customers they *SQUEE* off with this promotion, and then release the series in it's own HC as well as digital (probably shortly after #4 hits the shelves).

It probably also won't be long until they start screwing over creators in royalty checks, getting lawyers to tell V-ditty how he didn't create GIN-GR after the GIN-GR Transformer deal goes through, constantly killing off and recycling characters, and basically are indistinguishable from the Big Two that everyone hates.

(By the way, I love Marvel, so I'd still buy the hell outta some VEI books if the stories are still awesome.)

You forgot to complain that there will be comics written exclusively in Chinese, so we'll need hire someone to translate for us because VEI won't send complimentary translators to our house in a limousine like we asked.

I'm not asking, I'm demanding complimentary translators. They don't have to come in a limousine, though.

My first choice would be jetpacks.
And there is a Chinese language VEI book that I really wish I had. I've seen it. And I want one.

[geocarr]

Oh Greg, you almost made me fall out of my chair twice reading your posts. That was great!!

[tiredofmyself]

Are Book of Death #2-#4 going to be returnable as well?

This is the $100,000 question.

If they don't do 80% discounts and don't allow returns for LCS for 2-4, then even some of the people who do manage to get a copy of LotG #1, won't be able to read the rest of the damn story!

Realistically, what I figure will happen is VEI gets the buzz they want out of this, prop up their numbers for BoD #1 (and likely #2-4 as well, although not as much), (hopefully) add some to the readership to make up for or exceed the customers they *SQUEE* off with this promotion, and then release the series in it's own HC as well as digital (probably shortly after #4 hits the shelves).

It probably also won't be long until they start screwing over creators in royalty checks, getting lawyers to tell V-ditty how he didn't create GIN-GR after the GIN-GR Transformer deal goes through, constantly killing off and recycling characters, and basically are indistinguishable from the Big Two that everyone hates.

(By the way, I love Marvel, so I'd still buy the hell outta some VEI books if the stories are still awesome.)

You forgot to complain that there will be comics written exclusively in Chinese, so we'll need hire someone to translate for us because VEI won't send complimentary translators to our house in a limousine like we asked.

I'm not asking, I'm demanding complimentary translators. They don't have to come in a limousine, though.

If they don't come in a limousine, how will you know they're incentives?

True. I demand limousines.

Limo service is overrated. You have to chat with the driver unlike in a Taxi! It's a disincentive.

Not ideal for an Exclusive contracted writer for Big Comics Company.

[greg]

Are Book of Death #2-#4 going to be returnable as well?

This is the $100,000 question.

If they don't do 80% discounts and don't allow returns for LCS for 2-4, then even some of the people who do manage to get a copy of LotG #1, won't be able to read the rest of the damn story!

Realistically, what I figure will happen is VEI gets the buzz they want out of this, prop up their numbers for BoD #1 (and likely #2-4 as well, although not as much), (hopefully) add some to the readership to make up for or exceed the customers they *SQUEE* off with this promotion, and then release the series in it's own HC as well as digital (probably shortly after #4 hits the shelves).

It probably also won't be long until they start screwing over creators in royalty checks, getting lawyers to tell V-ditty how he didn't create GIN-GR after the GIN-GR Transformer deal goes through, constantly killing off and recycling characters, and basically are indistinguishable from the Big Two that everyone hates.

(By the way, I love Marvel, so I'd still buy the hell outta some VEI books if the stories are still awesome.)

You forgot to complain that there will be comics written exclusively in Chinese, so we'll need hire someone to translate for us because VEI won't send complimentary translators to our house in a limousine like we asked.

I'm not asking, I'm demanding complimentary translators. They don't have to come in a limousine, though.

My first choice would be jetpacks.
And there is a Chinese language VEI book that I really wish I had. I've seen it. And I want one.

As long as they are limited edition jetpacks AND as long as VEI does not issue any regular edition jetpacks.

[lorddunlow]

Are Book of Death #2-#4 going to be returnable as well?

This is the $100,000 question.

If they don't do 80% discounts and don't allow returns for LCS for 2-4, then even some of the people who do manage to get a copy of LotG #1, won't be able to read the rest of the damn story!

Realistically, what I figure will happen is VEI gets the buzz they want out of this, prop up their numbers for BoD #1 (and likely #2-4 as well, although not as much), (hopefully) add some to the readership to make up for or exceed the customers they *SQUEE* off with this promotion, and then release the series in it's own HC as well as digital (probably shortly after #4 hits the shelves).

It probably also won't be long until they start screwing over creators in royalty checks, getting lawyers to tell V-ditty how he didn't create GIN-GR after the GIN-GR Transformer deal goes through, constantly killing off and recycling characters, and basically are indistinguishable from the Big Two that everyone hates.

(By the way, I love Marvel, so I'd still buy the hell outta some VEI books if the stories are still awesome.)

There are lots of ways I would like VEI to be like marvel and DC. Like tons.
And I would say there is more marvel and DC love than hate. I think economics proves that.

This is more the point I was trying to make. VEI's goal is to become one of the "Big Three". You can't fault them for that. We're not seeing an Image shared movie universe; we're not seeing an Archie comics movie universe. We're getting an actual VEI movie universe. This changes things. Most of it will be good. There will be bad. I think this is the beginning of the end of VEI "the little guys" and the start of the long road to become the behemoth that they will become.

Marvel and DC are the "big two" for a reason. Part of that is they have awesome characters and stories. The other (possibly bigger) part is they are businesses run like businesses.

[greg]

Valiant is finishing their third year of publishing and starting their fourth year.

They will have to do some new things and take some risks.

It seems like the majority of Valiant fans would agree... yes, VEI should probably try some new things and take some risks.

The Legends of the Geomancer incentive is one of those risks.

So, as far as I can tell, the same people who would have said "yes, VEI should probably try some new things and take some risks" are now saying "...but not THAT!"

[lorddunlow]

Valiant is finishing their third year of publishing and starting their fourth year.

They will have to do some new things and take some risks.

It seems like the majority of Valiant fans would agree... yes, VEI should probably try some new things and take some risks.

The Legends of the Geomancer incentive is one of those risks.

So, as far as I can tell, the same people who would have said "yes, VEI should probably try some new things and take some risks" are now saying "...but not THAT!"

We are!

I acknowledge that VEI will have to make me mad to do what is right. My second favorite monthly title (Umbral) was canceled last month. I loved that book. Not many others did. If VEI only did stuff that I liked, then they would probably suffer the same fate.

There are probably exceptions, but I'd be willing to wager that most of the people defending this promotion:
1. already purchase variants, so are by definition the minority of those that purchase VEI books, and are used to paying more than cover for a comic book
2. have ample supply of disposable income
3. have convenient access (and the luxury of choice) to an LCS that has multiple employees who can deal with the hassle of buying/ordering/returning unsold books

I don't care for variants. I don't think they are the most horrible thing ever, but I don't like them. I already spend more on comics than I (or my wife) would like. I have two LCS in my area. The one I use has an owner and 2 part time employees. The other wouldn't even hold a copy of X-O Manowar #1 2nd print for an hour for me.

[iwantvaliant]

Valiant is finishing their third year of publishing and starting their fourth year.

They will have to do some new things and take some risks.

It seems like the majority of Valiant fans would agree... yes, VEI should probably try some new things and take some risks.

The Legends of the Geomancer incentive is one of those risks.

So, as far as I can tell, the same people who would have said "yes, VEI should probably try some new things and take some risks" are now saying "...but not THAT!"

Valiant should absolutely take risks and try new things. You were joking earlier, but I think Valiant should make Chinese language exclusive stories. Marvel has done that in Japan. And they should do even more, because Valiant WILL NOT succeed if we are their only audience. And to be realistic, the people who read every Marvel story or every DC story is a very small handful, most people are fine not being able to read everything from those companies. We should expect and want the company to grow to the point where we can't get everything because that means they've made it. I just think that some fans didn't expect this to be the way they couldn't get everything.

I don't want to be lumped into the group of people who say Valiant shouldn't take risks. I'm just disappointed that I won't get to participate right away.

[lorddunlow]

Valiant should absolutely take risks and try new things. You were joking earlier, but I think Valiant should make Chinese language exclusive stories. Marvel has done that in Japan. And they should do even more, because Valiant WILL NOT succeed if we are their only audience. And to be realistic, the people who read every Marvel story or every DC story is a very small handful, most people are fine not being able to read everything from those companies. We should expect and want the company to grow to the point where we can't get everything because that means they've made it. I just think that some fans didn't expect this to be the way they couldn't get everything.

I don't want to be lumped into the group of people who say Valiant shouldn't take risks. I'm just disappointed that I won't get to participate right away.

I agree totally. I bolded the statements that I really think nailed it. I expected that VEI's growth into making more titles would be when I would have to make the difficult choice of which books not to subscribe to (or even read at all). I was hoping that I could decide not to buy the books that quite frankly suck (Q&W) in my opinion. Instead, VEI has taken one of my favorite parts of the VEI universe, let one of my favorite authors write a story about them, and then say, "but only if you help us prop up our numbers artificially."

That's honestly made me decide to cut my orders down a lot. I probably won't get this book unless it will be available close to cover price. That means I will no longer have a floppy of every story VEI has put out. I knew that would happen eventually if I wanted them to grow, but I didn't think it would be this soon. As such, I'm no longer supporting this company by buying crap just to support them.

I'm probably also going to follow my pattern with Image books (I mostly buy digital except my favorites, and with a few exceptions, I wait until Comixology has a deep discount sell and buy everything I wanted over the past few months) for VEI from now on.

That's not a chest-beating gorilla move. I'm not giving up on VEI. I'm just treating them like a company that can afford to lose some of my dollars. After Secret Wars is over, I'm out on floppies for Marvel altogether. I'm going all Marvel Unlimited.

If VEI makes LotG available to me in some legitimate way that I can just put down some money that goes to them directly for a copy (either paper or digital), then I'll give them my money for it. But I'll be reading it digitally probably on the weekend of its release.

[Elveen]

Are Book of Death #2-#4 going to be returnable as well?

This is the $100,000 question.

If they don't do 80% discounts and don't allow returns for LCS for 2-4, then even some of the people who do manage to get a copy of LotG #1, won't be able to read the rest of the damn story!

Realistically, what I figure will happen is VEI gets the buzz they want out of this, prop up their numbers for BoD #1 (and likely #2-4 as well, although not as much), (hopefully) add some to the readership to make up for or exceed the customers they *SQUEE* off with this promotion, and then release the series in it's own HC as well as digital (probably shortly after #4 hits the shelves).

It probably also won't be long until they start screwing over creators in royalty checks, getting lawyers to tell V-ditty how he didn't create GIN-GR after the GIN-GR Transformer deal goes through, constantly killing off and recycling characters, and basically are indistinguishable from the Big Two that everyone hates.

(By the way, I love Marvel, so I'd still buy the hell outta some VEI books if the stories are still awesome.)

There are lots of ways I would like VEI to be like marvel and DC. Like tons.
And I would say there is more marvel and DC love than hate. I think economics proves that.

This is more the point I was trying to make. VEI's goal is to become one of the "Big Three". You can't fault them for that. We're not seeing an Image shared movie universe; we're not seeing an Archie comics movie universe. We're getting an actual VEI movie universe. This changes things. Most of it will be good. There will be bad. I think this is the beginning of the end of VEI "the little guys" and the start of the long road to become the behemoth that they will become.

Marvel and DC are the "big two" for a reason. Part of that is they have awesome characters and stories. The other (possibly bigger part) is they are businesses run like businesses.

I think that there is a real legitimate shot at a "big 3". We might be looking at 10 years, but think it can happen.
VEI is Run like a business. I don't want to nanny nanny here, but I've had the opportunity to have conversations with all the VEI big dogs, all of them. Every decision they make is a business decision all headng to the larger goal. These dude are legit! To hear Dino talk about how the movie meetings go, and to know the things he has said no to......wow. As a fan I would jump at the offers he has turned down. But I'm glad he didn't. He got better. To spend time with Warren and talk to him about looking at every single page before it goes out and making sure that it bridges to the next arc and the next one waaaay down the line. I've had Fred talk to me about the numbers and the deadlines and the last min changes that Dysart wants at the 11th hour. It's all business.
But..... These dudes are all passionate about the product and even more passionate about us. The fams. When ever I talk to Hunter or Atom or Josh about how a certain con went it's never, "we sold this many and made this much". It is always about the peeps they meet and the interaction with the fams.
The goal should be to be similar in some ways to marvel and DC, but to also keep the essential Valiant.
I do think one thing that is essential Valiant is innovation and risk taking. Maybe the Goemancer book does not work as they planned. But we can be sure that is was a business decision they made and also a decision they made with the fams in mind. Just like every decision they have made so far.

[tiredofmyself]

Do we really want the company to grow so big that we won't (realistically) be able to read every story like the Big Two?

Because I kind of like the line to be not that huge... I mean... so many stories from Marvel & DC are just fillers and rehashing... there is absolute no weight to their big events so they have to start killing worlds and universes...

At one point when the universe become too huge... more readers are going to become *character readers* who hold on to characters who do the same thing everyday or got killed and replaced by a more socially hip version instead of "story readers" who actually enjoy the story flow...

The quality of Valiant books is already dropping a little with the non-plan Shadowman, and then the different Eternal Warriors...

[Elveen]

Maybe "some" of the books have had quality drops.
Some are great and as good as Valiant has ever done.

Imperium and Divinity and Xo has been great. Just off the top of my head.

[lorddunlow]

Do we really want the company to grow so big that we won't (realistically) be able to read every story like the Big Two?

YES!

Do we want our favorite universe and its characters to become household names and endure possibly forever?

HELL YEAH!

[lorddunlow]

But..... These dudes are all passionate about the product and even more passionate about us. The fams. When ever I talk to Hunter or Atom or Josh about how a certain con went it's never, "we sold this many and made this much". It is always about the peeps they meet and the interaction with the fams.

This is why I think this particular promotion is a bad idea. I could be totally wrong. If it succeeds in increasing readership, then I'll admit I was wrong. I'll still not be happy with the promotion, but I'll be happy overall.

But this move seems more like "we want to sell this many and made this much..." and not really about the fans. I totally understand what they hope to accomplish, but it really is at the expense of the most loyal of fans. Just look at this thread. It's not just one guy that is *SQUEE*. Twitter has even more *SQUEE* casual fans who are being completely turned off from VEI. That's not about the peeps.

[Elveen]

Do we really want the company to grow so big that we won't (realistically) be able to read every story like the Big Two?

YES!

Do we want our favorite universe and its characters to become household names and endure possibly forever?

HELL YEAH!

+1,000,000.

The goal is to become a non-independent publisher.

[Elveen]

But..... These dudes are all passionate about the product and even more passionate about us. The fams. When ever I talk to Hunter or Atom or Josh about how a certain con went it's never, "we sold this many and made this much". It is always about the peeps they meet and the interaction with the fams.

This is why I think this particular promotion is a bad idea. I could be totally wrong. If it succeeds in increasing readership, then I'll admit I was wrong. I'll still not be happy with the promotion, but I'll be happy overall.

But this move seems more like "we want to sell this many and made this much..." and not really about the fans. I totally understand what they hope to accomplish, but it really is at the expense of the most loyal of fans. Just look at this thread. It's not just one guy that is *SQUEE*. Twitter has even more *SQUEE* casual fans who are being completely turned off from VEI. That's not about the peeps.

Maybe it's Spock at the end of WoK??
Maybe it's much ado about nothing.
???

[Paul Nolan]

Marvel, DC, IDW, Boom, Image, Dark Horse & Dynamite all published over 28 titles in the month of March.

But they all, in some way have segregation in lines

WHEN Valiant Expand they have to be careful to expand organically from individual titles into groups of title. Which I believe we can currently see blossoming.

but we have to hit a time when a A & A, Timewalker, and Eternal Warrior can be published Simultaeously, without the foundation of fans being alienated.

and that means having huge thematic differences with say a Harbinger / Imperium line or a Punk Mambo's / Shadowman line with all lines being interlinked, but non-essential.

[kjjohanson]

I was thinking that you don't generally see companies require that a customer purchase a bunch of things that they don't want in order to be able to purchase the product being offered that they do want.

And then it occurred to me that that's not true. Cable companies bundle hundreds of channels that you don't want and charge a premium so you can get the few that you'll actually watch.

This distribution method is the cable company of comic promotions. Except you don't get to keep the extra channels. They're held back and sold to someone else.

[mattp9989]

Hi Everyone.
I just posted this in the buy/sell form but it also seems pretty relevant here potentially...

Reaching out to those that may be upset with the recent book of death saga and want to sell their collections. I am new to the "new" valiant universe and am interested in buying a full run if anyone wants to part with it?

[tiredofmyself]

Hi Everyone.
I just posted this in the buy/sell form but it also seems pretty relevant here potentially...

Reaching out to those that may be upset with the recent book of death saga and want to sell their collections. I am new to the "new" valiant universe and am interested in buying a full run if anyone wants to part with it?

See, the promotion is working! New readers!

[Tim]

Hi Everyone.
I just posted this in the buy/sell form but it also seems pretty relevant here potentially...

Reaching out to those that may be upset with the recent book of death saga and want to sell their collections. I am new to the "new" valiant universe and am interested in buying a full run if anyone wants to part with it?

See, the promotion is working! New readers!

[Ricomortis]

Hi Everyone.
I just posted this in the buy/sell form but it also seems pretty relevant here potentially...

Reaching out to those that may be upset with the recent book of death saga and want to sell their collections. I am new to the "new" valiant universe and am interested in buying a full run if anyone wants to part with it?

See, the promotion is working! New readers!

Hey Tim...

Not to change the subject... (Shhh... Really to change the subject)

On your print run thread, are the numbers for just the regular editions? Or do they include all the variants in those numbers?

Thanks!

[DantePD]

Valiant is finishing their third year of publishing and starting their fourth year.

They will have to do some new things and take some risks.

It seems like the majority of Valiant fans would agree... yes, VEI should probably try some new things and take some risks.

The Legends of the Geomancer incentive is one of those risks.

So, as far as I can tell, the same people who would have said "yes, VEI should probably try some new things and take some risks" are now saying "...but not THAT!"

We are!

I acknowledge that VEI will have to make me mad to do what is right. My second favorite monthly title (Umbral) was canceled last month. I loved that book. Not many others did. If VEI only did stuff that I liked, then they would probably suffer the same fate.

There are probably exceptions, but I'd be willing to wager that most of the people defending this promotion:
1. already purchase variants, so are by definition the minority of those that purchase VEI books, and are used to paying more than cover for a comic book
2. have ample supply of disposable income
3. have convenient access (and the luxury of choice) to an LCS that has multiple employees who can deal with the hassle of buying/ordering/returning unsold books

I don't care for variants. I don't think they are the most horrible thing ever, but I don't like them. I already spend more on comics than I (or my wife) would like. I have two LCS in my area. The one I use has an owner and 2 part time employees. The other wouldn't even hold a copy of X-O Manowar #1 2nd print for an hour for me.

I live in DC and have four LCS's within a 30 minute drive from my apartment (Not counting the Fantom Comics satellite store in Union Station) and ALL of them have told me that they've no intention of ordering enough BOD to qualify for one copy of LOG. They don't have the room for the extra stock that is EXTREMELY unlikely to sell. Between the four of them, there are MAYBE 30 VEI readers from what I've been told.

[ilzuccone]

21 pages of this?

If you guys talked up your LCS, fellow readers, or this forum about the positive things this company has done as you have complained about a few books it wouldn't bother me...

Oh please..... This board has done nothing but talk up the positive things this company has done for as long as they've been in existence. I have never seen a group of fans go out of their way to hype up and promote a comic book company as I have seen here. But as soon as someone questions something or has negativity about something VEI does they're either doom and gloomers or spoiled entitled brats.

i would just point this comment to q&w. everyone seems to agree the books suck a hard dick....

[tiredofmyself]

From Dinesh's Tweets & replies tab on Twitter:

Thank you for the kind words and the support. I'm happy to address this. The reaction has been interesting. We knew it would be controversial but people have jumped to a lot of conclusions. The book is a better way to do variants. It's better value for money. It's also not going to be as difficult to obtain as a regular variant because of the heavy retailer discount and returnability. I'm also surprised that people feel they'll never get a chance to read it when we live in a world where you can't hide content, spoilers etc. no matter how hard you try.