Has Anybody Dropped the Big Two for Valiant?

[Spylocke]

QFT Some of my favorite reads have been recent Marvel books. Most are Image. But Oni has great stuff, Dark Horse...

It is a great time to be a comic fan. I can't stick to just Valiant.

I'm just waiting for "the big bang theory" geek fad to be over, the comics industry is probably going to crash and burn as hard as it did when the crash happened in the 90's when it's over

And I've honestly never read anything by Oni, they have anything good? Really not interested in Scott Pilgrim and I've heard good things about Sharknife

The only Oni series I followed was Hopeless Savages by Jan Van Meter which got me really pumped about her writing Doctor Mirage. It's a family comedy/drama about aging punks who decided to start a family. It might come across as sappy if the characters didn't have names like Rat, Twitch, Arsenal and Skank Zero.

Back on topic, I have been gravitating more towards Valiant lately since the Marvel stuff I like tends to not sell well. Once Spiderman 2099 is gone the only Marvel title on my pull list will be Ms. Marvel. It doesn't help that most of the characters I like either fall outside of the X-Men and Avengers or they aren't popular enough to warrant being on a team much less having their own series. I was thrilled as can be when Legion got his own series.

I was raised Marvel so I didn't discover DC until a few years ago. I thought the New 52 would be a good place to start, but, much like Marvel, a lot of the weird and interesting characters were replaced by the more profitable ones I didn't care for.
I was disappointed by the big two too many times while Valiant has surprised me time and again. I wasn't much of a Shadowman fan this time around but Valiant at least gave the character a decent chance instead of cancelling the title after four or five issues.

In short, the big two dropped me from their pull list.

[TheFerg714]

I'm not suggesting people can't like a company for putting out enjoyable comics, my issue is the blind assumptions that everything a publisher does is going be as good as the comic you fell in love with.

No one is assuming this but you. Dunlow has clearly stated that he reads Marvel comics because he likes them. As annoyed as I (and obviously you) are with Marvel, I can totally understand how someone can enjoy Marvel's stuff. You have to realize that some people have different tastes than you.

Yes there are some good books, but the vast majority of them are mediocre. Marvel needs to slim their line down. Too many Avenger titles, too many X-men titles and now they are gonna be expanding the Spider-man titles with this "Spider-verse" thing. All this has to do with marketing, and less about telling really good stories.

Well, yea agreed, but it is an industry. Obviously a part of it has to be focused on marketing. I do agree that it seems like Marvel isn't even trying for quality stories anymore.

I don't like when characters are not true to themselves. Like how I could tell Grifter was not the same character he was in his own DC series. It was like reading about someone else using his name and wearing his gear. I think a lot people don't care, they just want to be fed more of their beloved character. Many are willing to let things slide as long as it's not too much of a stretch.

That's fine, but that kind of problem with comics in general. Each writer and reboot is going to give a little different perspective at whatever character you're into. Some might not like it, but some people will. Obviously, it can be done well, and not as well, but it's going to happen. There's no use *SQUEE* about it. Just stop reading it, and tell people who also like Grifter to stay away because it's not the same. Don't go around acting like everyone has to feel the same way as you.

I'm sorry but no one character or a the city of Gotham needs 7 titles to tell various stories that only converge (pun unintended) when sales are low and they spike it with an event. That's not comics...that's glorified paid advertisement brochure.

This entire paragraph makes it pretty clear that you don't know what's going on in DC's Bat-line. Let me break it down for you...
1. Like I already said. there are 3 titles starring the same person, not 7. 3 is really not very much, especially considering how well Batman sells. It would be silly to just ignore demand, and at least all 3 books feel completely different.
2. The Bat-line consists of about 7 more titles, and every book is markedly different. They have only "converged" three times in the last 3 years, and it was only one issue per book that tied-in to the lead Batman book. No big "Battle of the Atom" style crossovers, and no events that took up more than one issue.
3. None of the New 52 is crossing into Convergence. It's a two-month break, then back to regular schedule.
4. Marvel has a huge problem with constant events, DC does not. Stop blaming everyone when it's just Marvel.

That kind of logic is why there are so many mediocre comics. I think many support their favorite company because they don't want to see them disappear, especially small publishers like Valiant. But truthfully throwing money at them is not going preserve their chances.

lol, umm, yes it is. The more people buy Valiant's comics, the better chance we have of keeping these book on the shelves. It's kind of common knowledge. It's like you're assuming that comic publishers should never consider money or marketing when deciding which books to release.

[jmatt]

I'm just waiting for "the big bang theory" geek fad to be over, the comics industry is probably going to crash and burn as hard as it did when the crash happened in the 90's when it's over

Meh, my sense isn't that there are people flocking to comic shops thanks to the BBT. I'm sure my LCS wishes it was though.

[cray_ws]

No one is assuming this but you. Dunlow has clearly stated that he reads Marvel comics because he likes them. As annoyed as I (and obviously you) are with Marvel, I can totally understand how someone can enjoy Marvel's stuff. You have to realize that some people have different tastes than you.

I don't think you understand what I mean when I talk about love affair with a comic book company. People have these awesome expectations of Valiant because they see the grand potential of the continuity-verse. They quickly get it in their head that the publisher is going to appease those expectations. Trusting them becomes a whole lot easier when they give the reader an inch but decide to push variants and spin-offs. So it's real easy to put down your $4 for X-O MANOWAR cooking greek issue because they also give you X-O vs Shadowman teaser.

Well, yea agreed, but it is an industry. Obviously a part of it has to be focused on marketing. I do agree that it seems like Marvel isn't even trying for quality stories anymore.

I do think Marvel does have titles that are not entirely Marketing-oriented. I think the HAWKEYE and BLACK WIDOW series are examples, but as great as those titles are they limited by editorial and marketing control. That's the unfortunate circumstances of corporate ownership. In other words, HAWKEYE and BLACK WIDOW series are gonna be short lived unless Marvel finds a way to milk these intellectual properties to the fullest.

That's fine, but that kind of problem with comics in general. Each writer and reboot is going to give a little different perspective at whatever character you're into. Some might not like it, but some people will. Obviously, it can be done well, and not as well, but it's going to happen. There's no use *SQUEE* about it. Just stop reading it, and tell people who also like Grifter to stay away because it's not the same. Don't go around acting like everyone has to feel the same way as you.

Do you understand why I complain? Do you realize I'm not preventing anyone from buying/reading what they like...I'm only voicing my opinion about it. I do think the comic buying community tends to be overly passive about mischaracterizations and generally pass it off as you said...different perspectives. I think many writers and including artist have tendency to alter the perspectives of their favorite characters to reflect their ideal version, mostly from their own history of the character as reader themselves. We all have that version of Superman or Batman in our minds where they take no prisoners and kick serious *SQUEE*. But neither are truly like that, and a lot has to happen for those kinda things to happen. I'm not interested in Grifter the chump who doesn't know who he is anymore. I've read too many issues of him where he's not eager to get his *SQUEE* kicked unless it's for someone he loves. Recent appearances of Grifter have him with new powers and teamed up with some conspiracy loser who appears to live in basement boiler room. It's like reading Harry Potter as The Rock facing off Voldemort as Bambam Bigelow in a caged match.....with cooking of course.
To get to the point, I think readers need to open their eyes and stop being so passive and accepting to such blatant disregard for characterizations and continuity.

This entire paragraph makes it pretty clear that you don't know what's going on in DC's Bat-line. Let me break it down for you...

LOL you just proved my point...The fact that you had to "break it down" is EXACTLY what's wrong with corporate comics today. I can hand you the first volume of SAVAGE DRAGON or THE WALKING DEAD and not have to explain anything. It's all in there...loads of story in one freakin' series, not seven different books priced at $4 only there for a money-grab. I think people fail to realize that even books designed to be money-grabs can have some good stories. I just feel that those good stories could've easily been told in one Batman title. Spin-offs are not good for continuity sake unless there's a genuine expansion of the continuity-verse that is not just more of the same (but different perspectives). Again a lot good stories are told in spin-offs even when it's just more of the same. The problem is that it deteriorates the continuity. X-factor should've never happen, but it did and it fostered more X-spin-offs which were more the same.

lol, umm, yes it is. The more people buy Valiant's comics, the better chance we have of keeping these book on the shelves. It's kind of common knowledge. It's like you're assuming that comic publishers should never consider money or marketing when deciding which books to release.

Way to take my comment out of context and run with it to extremes. So let me ask and answer a question...How does Valiant gain more readers by putting out mediocre comics? Valiant's brand loyalty isn't enough to survive mediocrity...I think it's proven that 3 times over the course of 25 years having changed ownership twice and gone defunct.

I will tell you what Valiant needs to do, they need to make better comics, stuff that gets people and professionals attention. The kind of attention that says "We are a quality publisher" I think RAI was the start of it. There was a lot heads popped up when everyone saw it for the first time. The problem is that that's only title (at the time) that people noticed. Quality and marketing is the key to success in any business. I think if X-O was artistically done like RAI, it could compete with Marvel's Iron-Man readership or at the very least make a dent. X-O MANOWAR is much more recognizable and stepping stone to creating growth for brand loyalty. I truly hope IMPERIUM, DIVINITY, and TIMEWALKER are captivating enough to get some brand recognition. You know when the brand is growing when professionals start pitching ideas to Valiant editors. They need fresh blood, as I think Cary Nord has done all that he could and would be better served as a cover artist. I do like his layouts, but his finishes are so inconsistent. Quality has to get better if they want to compete.

[TheFerg714]

I don't think you understand what I mean when I talk about love affair with a comic book company. People have these awesome expectations of Valiant because they see the grand potential of the continuity-verse. They quickly get it in their head that the publisher is going to appease those expectations. Trusting them becomes a whole lot easier when they give the reader an inch but decide to push variants and spin-offs. So it's real easy to put down your $4 for X-O MANOWAR cooking greek issue because they also give you X-O vs Shadowman teaser.

In Valiant's case, they are appeasing my expectations. In Marvel's case, they're not. I completely understand what you're saying, I'm just saying that brand loyalty isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially when said brand is making great comics like Valiant.

Do you understand why I complain? Do you realize I'm not preventing anyone from buying/reading what they like...I'm only voicing my opinion about it
To get to the point, I think readers need to open their eyes and stop being so passive and accepting to such blatant disregard for characterizations and continuity.

I do understand why you complain, and I think it's completely ok for you to voice your opinions. I do, however, take issue with you saying things like: "I fear people like you are what holds this industry back." Just chill out bro, dunlow stated unabashedly, that he likes Marvel, and he gave reasons. Don't jump down someone's throat just because you disagree with them.

LOL you just proved my point...The fact that you had to "break it down" is EXACTLY what's wrong with corporate comics today. I can hand you the first volume of SAVAGE DRAGON or THE WALKING DEAD and not have to explain anything. It's all in there...loads of story in one freakin' series, not seven different books priced at $4 only there for a money-grab. I think people fail to realize that even books designed to be money-grabs can have some good stories. I just feel that those good stories could've easily been told in one Batman title. Spin-offs are not good for continuity sake unless there's a genuine expansion of the continuity-verse that is not just more of the same (but different perspectives).

No, I had to "break it down" because everything about that post was misinformation. I had to correct you when you say things like:
"I'm sorry but no one character or a the city of Gotham needs 7 titles to tell various stories," because there isn't a single character that has more than 3 titles. And I don't see what's wrong with telling more than one story in one city (even though a significant chunk of Bat-books don't even take place in Gotham).
and "stories that only converge (pun unintended) when sales are low and they spike it with an event," because nothing in DC does this (besides maybe the Green Lantern line), especially Bat-books!
I had to clarify that the Bat-line is not complicated, and just because there's spinoffs doesn't mean that it's hard to jump in. Like the Savage Dragon and TWD examples you brought up, I could hand you the first volume of Batman, Detective Comics, or Batman & Robin and not have to explain anything. Just pick which one sounds the most interesting to you: straight-up Batman, more detective-y Batman, or team-up-with-Robin Batman. You don't HAVE to buy all of them to know what's going on! DC has actually been great about not forcing you to buy every comic, especially on the Batman side of things. How does it make any sense that "all of these good stories," like the ones in Catwoman and Batgirl, can just be thrown into one Batman book? Like I said earlier, it would be stupid to ignore demand, so DC might as well focus on making these side-characters actually have good stories... which they are doing right now! (Also, everything DC puts out, besides 7 books I think, is only $3)

Way to take my comment out of context and run with it to extremes. So let me ask and answer a question...How does Valiant gain more readers by putting out mediocre comics? Valiant's brand loyalty isn't enough to survive mediocrity...I think it's proven that 3 times over the course of 25 years having changed ownership twice and gone defunct.

Wtf does this even mean!? Of course Valiant can't survive if they only put out mediocre comics. Of course the only strategy left for Valiant is making high-quality comics. I was simply saying that, yes, if you (the reader) want a company to survive, throwing money at it is the best way to do so.

[Brother Darque]

no,

but i'm VERY tempted to do it.

[lorddunlow]

Cray_ws, were you a victim of some sort of cooking-based abuse as a child?

[mkb28]

QFT Some of my favorite reads have been recent Marvel books. Most are Image. But Oni has great stuff, Dark Horse...

It is a great time to be a comic fan. I can't stick to just Valiant.

I'm just waiting for "the big bang theory" geek fad to be over, the comics industry is probably going to crash and burn as hard as it did when the crash happened in the 90's when it's over

And I've honestly never read anything by Oni, they have anything good? Really not interested in Scott Pilgrim and I've heard good things about Sharknife

Oni publishes Letter 44 which is quite good. I'm sure they have other good books too, I just haven't read them.

+1 on Letter 44.

Mkb28

[ilzuccone]

Cray_ws, were you a victim of some sort of cooking-based abuse as a child?

i think cray just needs a hug.
https://twitter.com/warrenellis/status/2942832354

[TheFerg714]

Cray_ws, were you a victim of some sort of cooking-based abuse as a child?

i think cray just needs a hug.
https://twitter.com/warrenellis/status/2942832354

That was one of the most entertaining things I've seen all day.

[cray_ws]

Cray_ws, were you a victim of some sort of cooking-based abuse as a child?

i think cray just needs a hug.
https://twitter.com/warrenellis/status/2942832354

LOL that was like forever...I don't recall what I said that sparked that response. I'm not even sure I recall seeing that tweet ever.

[TheFerg714]

Cray_ws, were you a victim of some sort of cooking-based abuse as a child?

i think cray just needs a hug.
https://twitter.com/warrenellis/status/2942832354

That was one of the most entertaining things I've seen all day.

[lorddunlow]

Cray_ws, were you a victim of some sort of cooking-based abuse as a child?

i think cray just needs a hug.
https://twitter.com/warrenellis/status/2942832354

[cray_ws]

Irony of this....Warren Ellis is my favorite writer.

[ilzuccone]

Irony of this....Warren Ellis is my favorite writer.

you write the best fan letters (tweets) apparently

[Captain Craig]

No, I haven't. However I'm about to undergo one of those life changer events this summer so necessity my dictate that I do.

I got engaged nearly three weeks ago. So it's one of those combining homes situations coming up. She weeds/discards and so do I, certain things. The plus side is she is a librarian and knows that comics aren't "just kiddie fare", so she supports that I'm a reader.
I have a fairly large Omni/OHC collection on one large Billy Bookcase and one small Billy from IKEA.
I also have several long boxes of comics(as you could've guessed) and we discussed my weekly habit.
The not yet full conclusion maybe that I fully eliminate monthly Marvel/DC purchases and just stay with VALIANT. Then picking up Mavel/DC fare in HC collections later...especially while we are in this house. Plans to get a larger house later, when kids come into the equation might mean I could go back but maybe by then I don't care or am content with that purchase pattern.

I told her that I'd like to keep getting VALIANT monthly cause it's something I've been with since nearly the inception of it's superhero universe. It'd be like saying you had 90% of everything Marvel produced from Fantastic Four #1 thru Secret Wars II, can't stop now!

[geocarr]

I got engaged nearly three weeks ago. The plus side is she is a librarian and knows that comics aren't "just kiddie fare", so she supports that I'm a reader.

Congratulations on the engagement and more importantly on finding a woman who understands your affinity for comics and the medium.

[ilzuccone]

No, I haven't. However I'm about to undergo one of those life changer events this summer so necessity my dictate that I do.

I got engaged nearly three weeks ago. So it's one of those combining homes situations coming up. She weeds/discards and so do I, certain things. The plus side is she is a librarian and knows that comics aren't "just kiddie fare", so she supports that I'm a reader.
I have a fairly large Omni/OHC collection on one large Billy Bookcase and one small Billy from IKEA.
I also have several long boxes of comics(as you could've guessed) and we discussed my weekly habit.
The not yet full conclusion maybe that I fully eliminate monthly Marvel/DC purchases and just stay with VALIANT. Then picking up Mavel/DC fare in HC collections later...especially while we are in this house. Plans to get a larger house later, when kids come into the equation might mean I could go back but maybe by then I don't care or am content with that purchase pattern.

I told her that I'd like to keep getting VALIANT monthly cause it's something I've been with since nearly the inception of it's superhero universe. It'd be like saying you had 90% of everything Marvel produced from Fantastic Four #1 thru Secret Wars II, can't stop now!

your plan of only getting valiant and waiting for HC on other series is exactly what i did. I don't regret it at all. it's awesome.

and congrats on the engagement. being married is *SQUEE* awesome.

[Brapbrap]

Marvel always have one or two good titles (currently Ant-Man and X-force, though X-force just ended this week).

DC's big books are always pretty uninteresting to me but some of their bat-line for the past half a year or so has been incredible and a lot of their post-convergence titles look fun.

[DIrishB]

Pretty much.

I only ever consistently read Marvel's Ultimate titles, but over the past 7-8 years the quality level of those has dropped tremendously (Bendis' Ultimate Spider-Man is still a good read, but the rest of the current Ultimate titles are horrible). And with the Ultimate universe FINALLY ending as part of Marvel's upcoming Secret Wars event, that'll be the end of my Marvel buying.

While I like DC characters, I've never been a regular reader. Haven't bought a DC comic in... geez, I can't even remember. I think I checked out some of the New 52 titles when it was rebooted, but wasn't impressed. Well, I do read the occasional Vertigo title, but not often enough to warrant mention.

Mostly I read independent stuff like Image's Saga (I'll read anything by Vaughan, that guy is awesome), and all Valiant releases. Valiant gets about 90% of my comic spending.

[cray_ws]

I have 12 longboxes all stored away at my sister's house because I have no space in my current apartment. I have since gone digital and actually buy more comics than I ever have. I'm still waiting for Dark Horse to join Comixology as I refuse to use Dark Horse's buggy app. I know I'd be spending even more money! LOL

Anyway my point here is digital has eliminated my storage problem, and has made it easy for me to access any of my books on want on my phone or tablet. I even read my books on my 55' Samsung HDTV. Don't get me wrong I love the smell of ink and fresh bound paper. I was constantly reminded of it when I worked as graphic designer at a print shop.

[ilzuccone]

I have 12 longboxes all stored away at my sister's house because I have no space in my current apartment. I have since gone digital and actually buy more comics than I ever have. I'm still waiting for Dark Horse to join Comixology as I refuse to use Dark Horse's buggy app. I know I'd be spending even more money! LOL

Anyway my point here is digital has eliminated my storage problem, and has made it easy for me to access any of my books on want on my phone or tablet. I even read my books on my 55' Samsung HDTV. Don't get me wrong I love the smell of ink and fresh bound paper. I was constantly reminded of it when I worked as graphic designer at a print shop.

I was a die hard,"digital will never be better than the printed page" guy. Unfortunately I was so wrong. It's a lot of fun to read digitally.

How do you read on your tv?! Tether a devise to it or is there a tv app?! I could get into this.

[cray_ws]

How do you read on your tv?! Tether a devise to it or is there a tv app?! I could get into this.

I have a NEXUS 10 (android) tablet and I use a Chromecast HDMI thing.

http://www.amazon.com/Google-Chromecast ... B00DR0PDNE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Once it's set up it's just a matter of letting Chromecast mirror your mobile device.

[ilzuccone]

How do you read on your tv?! Tether a devise to it or is there a tv app?! I could get into this.

I have a NEXUS 10 (android) tablet and I use a Chromecast HDMI thing.

http://www.amazon.com/Google-Chromecast ... B00DR0PDNE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Once it's set up it's just a matter of letting Chromecast mirror your mobile device.

i have a chrome cast but can't use it because it leached my entire bandwidth. couldn't use the chrome cast and check emails etc. i think i got a defective one. nobody else seems to have the problem.

i'm going to look into hooking my iPad up the the tv tho.

[cray_ws]

i have a chrome cast but can't use it because it leached my entire bandwidth. couldn't use the chrome cast and check emails etc. i think i got a defective one. nobody else seems to have the problem.

i'm going to look into hooking my iPad up the the tv tho.

Chromecast uses wifi, I'm not sure how you might think it's leaching bandwidth.