How to CGC pre-screen?

Peter Parker · Post by **Peter Parker** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 9:52 pm

Getting a Mint 9.9 or Gem Mint 10.0 has NOTHING to do with "who you know" or the business you partake in with CGC (although, "other" things might

)

However, seriously, it's an INCREDIBLY difficult task to attain these grades from books off the rack. As I posted in another thread, forget about a Gem 10.0 book unless you've handle the book with GLOVES right out of the Diamond box (that's no joke, comes right from Borock

).

The oils in the human epidermis leave "shadow smudging" on the cover under fluorescent light

Anyway, that's my worthless cents...

Peter Parker · Post by **Peter Parker** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 9:59 pm

BTW...

I mention this not to brag, or show off, but just an an example of fact.

I have what might be the most PERFECT looking CGC Gem Mint 10.0 book, and its a BLACK COVER TO BOOT

In all seriousness, for all those who've ever claimed..."I can't tell a difference between a CGC 9.8 and a CGC 10.0" I'd say you need to look at this book...

I honestly don't believe i've ever seen a more perfect Comic book in my life (and i've seen quite a few) I also had 3 copies of this book (yes, 3 CGC 10.0 copies

) and the one I kept, was better than the others...by the slightest of details, to the trained anal eye

Anyway, just a bit of FYI...

400yrs · Post by **400yrs** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:17 pm

Peter Parker wrote:BTW...

I honestly don't believe i've ever seen a more perfect Comic book in my life (and i've seen quite a few) I also had 3 copies of this book (yes, 3 CGC 10.0 copies ) and the one I kept, was better than the others...by the slightest of details, to the trained anal eye

Anyway, just a bit of FYI...

What book? Amazing 36?

Maybe if you get on their good side, you can get the FIRST EVER 10.1 or 10.2!!

400yrs · Post by **400yrs** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:21 pm

Peter Parker wrote:
The oils in the human epidermis leave "shadow smudging" on the cover under fluorescent light

Easy solution to that problem: Get books directly off of printing press while wearing gloves, wear gloves while inspecting and handling, and most importantly - keep genitals away from comics to be submitted for slabbing

Peter Parker · Post by **Peter Parker** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:23 pm

Yep...

Amazing Spider-Man# 36 Vol II

Actually, the book means much to me personally, being the WTC issue. I work 5 blocks from where those beautuiful twins once stood :x

a 10.1...hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Neurosis1 · Post by **Neurosis1** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 1:24 am

I realize that cgc's standards for grading are unpublished, but I know there are quite a few of you who know almost exactly what they look for. ZWH was started on the right track with this quote:

It's about being critical enough to SPOT flaws and then ANALYZE what the totality of flaws a book has does to the overall grade. A book has 3-4 non color breaking stress marks, 1/16" or less and that's it? A 9.6. Book has a subtle bit of scuff at the top and bottom of the spine, no more than 1/32" and that's it? 9.8 Book has ZERO visible flaws, INSIDE and out? 10.0

My question is, could an experienced grader like ZWH possibly expand on what was stated and make an unofficial guide on how to self-pre-screen for CGC, similar in style to the outdated Overstreet method of grading comics. Just thought I would ask, as this would help myself and others out tremendously. I consider myself to be a good grader, but I would like to be a great grader.

-Chris

Escaflown4 · Post by **Escaflown4** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 2:12 am

Neurosis1 wrote:I realize that cgc's standards for grading are unpublished, but I know there are quite a few of you who know almost exactly what they look for. ZWH was started on the right track with this quote:

It's about being critical enough to SPOT flaws and then ANALYZE what the totality of flaws a book has does to the overall grade. A book has 3-4 non color breaking stress marks, 1/16" or less and that's it? A 9.6. Book has a subtle bit of scuff at the top and bottom of the spine, no more than 1/32" and that's it? 9.8 Book has ZERO visible flaws, INSIDE and out? 10.0

My question is, could an experienced grader like ZWH possibly expand on what was stated and make an unofficial guide on how to self-pre-screen for CGC, similar in style to the outdated Overstreet method of grading comics. Just thought I would ask, as this would help myself and others out tremendously. I consider myself to be a good grader, but I would like to be a great grader.

-Chris

Well here's my experience with CGC. At the Nationals back around the end of November, I submitted my first batch of books for CGC grading. Now remember, this is my first time submitting to CGC and I brought books based on my own grading scale. A total of 11 books which 8 of them are Valiants were submitted. Out of those 8 Valiants, 7 got 9.8's and 1 got a 9.4. The 9.4 was Solar #10 which I was expecting a 9.6, but I guess CGC grades black covers very harsh. The 3 other books are Lady Death in Lingerie Leather version (expected a 9.8, got 9.9), ASM#300 (expected a 9.4, got 9.4) and ASM#194 (expected a 9.4, got 9.2). Only two of those books got 1 notch below what I expected while the rest all met or exceeded my expectations. CKB can confirm this as I met him at the show and even sold him 3 of the 9.8's. With these results, I'm pretty confident that my grading is on the same tier as to what CGC looks out for. For me to expect a 9.8, the book has to be completely perfect and only allows ONE very miniscule defect (ie. a tiny crease that doesn't break color or a very tiny corner wear). If you follow this rule, you will have a high chance of getting 9.8's back from CGC.

400yrs · Post by **400yrs** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 9:13 am

Knightt_333 wrote:What the heck is a CGC book ?

CGC stands for Childish Girlie Comics

depluto · Post by **depluto** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 11:09 am

Easy, just set it on a sink and then knock it onto a tile floor. Comes right open.

Easing back onto topic ...

I find this stuff interesting. I'd love to see a grading criteria for super-high grade stuff.

Vault-Keeper · Post by **Vault-Keeper** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 12:38 pm

All this back & forth, yet nobody has actually explained your actual grading processes!!!

I now know, thanks to PP, that I should always wear my cloth archival gloves when handling High Grades that are to be submitted. I also now know to use a blacklight to look for oils on the cover & pages. I know this technique is used to identify restoration, just didn't think much about the oils....I have a blacklight, but I know you can buy a handheld model, (which antique dealers used to spot fixed cracks on pottery, or restorations to artwork, etc.) I think these can be found easily, if you have a local antique mall or dealer nearby. They cost around $20-35, depending on the model.

So now, when I do my pre-screening for 9.6's or better, this is the process I will use:

1. Clear & clean my work table. Do not have anything like a bottle of beer or a sloppy joe sandwich nearby, as a disaster WILL occur!

2. Make sure work table is lit with a GE Reveal bulb. This eliminates alot of yellow light that is produced from a standard bulb, & will bring out a truer paper color than a white florescent tube. Also have either a handheld blacklight or regular blacklight tube to observe unseen oils, etc. Also have a good magnifying glass to use for close inspections. I have three.

3. Gather books to be graded. They should all already be in some sort of comic bag with acid free backerboard. If not, don't handle them until you've got your hands washed, & cloth archival gloves on. (I got my gloves from where I used to work, so I don't know where to say to go buy a few pairs, other than to suggest you call your local library & ask someone in the Reference Dept. They WILL know.)

4. Go through the pile of books & completely remove the tape from the top flap (that is, if the bag has been taped closed). DO NOT leave the tape on the bag in an atempt to save tape. The Gawd-Awful 'tape pull' that could occur during a Murphy's Law moment could easily cause an unnecessary heart attack!

5. After you've removed the tape from all bags, now go wash your hands, & dry them completely. Put on your archival gloves. If you aren't nervous, & the room is at a slightly chilled temperature (60-65F), your hands shouldn't sweat. I would not use rubber gloves because they have a powder on them, & they WILL make your hands sweat quickly.

6. Gently remove the comic from the bag. First view the issue under the blacklight. You are now seeing what CGC will see when they perform the same thing. If you see mild oil residue, & that's the ONLY flaw, you might still have a viable CGC candidate. Do let MILD oil marks make you reject your submission. There are plenty of highly collectible issues out there which have this flaw. When I say MILD, I mean MILD, not greasy marks from eating potato chips while reading the comic.

7. Now inspect the spine & outer staples. Here you are looking for obvious creases, tears, &/or color breaks along the spine, & also the amount of rust, wear, &/or oxidation on the staples. When checking for restoration, the staples can be a much bigger matter, which I won't get into detail here.

8. Now inspect the front & back covers. Here you want to judge the sharpness of all four corners, & look for any marks, tears or creases. Hold the comic so the light reflects the cover gloss. This will also bring out any surface dimples or light creases, which might not be easily seen. Other things like color fade on the cover is easy to spot, & I would not send in anything with cover fade expecting a grade any higher than Very Fine ( if you're lucky).

9. Now check out the color of the pages. Most all pages should be the same. This a very important check in regards to restoration. You can tell if some pages have been replaced, if the book wasn't professionally cleaned at the same time. IMPORTANT NOTE: You should have a copy of Overstreet's Grading Guide. With this guide comes an "Overstreet Whitness Level" card (OWL). You can use this card by holding it up to the comic being graded & comparing it with the various whitness levels supplied on the OWL card.

10. Now jump to the middle, & check the centerwrap. Here you are looking for nice clean inner staples, tightly attached to the center wrap. A book that has been read a few times, even very carefully, usually starts showing wear at the center wrap & spine AT the staples.

11. Now go page by page. Here you are looking mainly for soiled pages or creases. However, be on the lookout for clipped out panels, coupons, or even missing pages. The average Silver to Modern Age comic has 32 pages. Alot of Golden Age have 64. Be real careful here, because pages can be removed so neatly sometimes, that unless you count the pages, you might not catch it. This is an important factor when dealing with square bound issues like Marvel Annuals.

12. I would call this a complete inspection, & at this point, I would CAREFULLY replace it in the comic bag with acid free backerboard. I would put a small florescent colored sticker on the top flap to seal the bag, so CGC can easily spot it & remove the issue from the bag safely. I wouldn't want there to be a chance of the issue just sliding out of the comic bag. It needs to be closed in some safe manner.

13. Now you total up the flaws you've found & decide whether it is worth it to send in your comic. Compare what you've found with the guidelines established in the Overstreet Grading Guide. I would also check out the CGC census to see what the top grades are for certain books you're considering sending in. You might have a moderately flawed Silver Age book that might still beat out the 'Top Dog' of what has already been graded.

14. To pack up your comics, you want to do it well, but no so well that CGC has a hard time getting through your 'bullet-proof' packaging. I would sandwich the comics between two pieces of 1/4" thick corrugated cardboard, cut slightly larger than the comics. Then wrap this with one or two layers of bubblewrap. Tape it up nicely, but don't overdo it. I would send this package out with at least Insured Priority shipping with Delivery Confirmation (which is free with Priority). Try to use a box made of 1/4" corrugated cardboard. The the Post Office mark it FRAGILE. Fill in any box gaps with syrofoam peanuts or rumpled or shredded paper.

Well, there you have it! That's what I'm gonna do, when I pre-screen the 1st batch from my Vault. I welcome constructive comments from other anal graders here like me.---Steve

whetteon · Post by **whetteon** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 1:30 pm

Awesome list Steve!

Peter Parker · Post by **Peter Parker** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 2:20 pm

Steve...

Superaltive effort with that post my man. Not only have you given solid information, but also shown the patience of job to write it all down

One could use that post as a template for grading protocol with ANY Comic book, in any Age

Again, well thought out, and expertly applicated...well done!

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 2:45 pm

ckb wrote:This kind of know-it-all attitude is dangerous, ZWH. It does not suit you. And I am not trying to be confrontational. I am trying to add a different viewpoint to "pre-screen is not necessary - do it yourself" which I find a somewhat irresponsible statement.

I do not know how to grade exactly like CGC. You do not know to grade exactly like CGC. No one knows how to grade exactly like CGC because their standard is unpublished. Only they know...

And you can berate my grading all you want, it does not bother me. I do not hold up my grading prowess as a crowning achievement. I'm just wise enough to know that mistakes happen, and the pre-screen is free. When the pre-screen is not free, it saves me $12 over the worthless slab I would get back otherwise. So it should be used whenever possible. There is no way to refute that. My mythical example was just that, mythical. But pre-screen is smart even in grading utopia.

Even if we did know their standard, mistakes will be made over large numbers of books. You seem to be denying this. That you could take your time and grade 100 books and have a 100% hit rate. I'm sure your hit rate would be plenty high. But even if you miss one, pre-screen saves you $12.

I use my real world experience when talking about pre-screen, and I have that experience with books from 1991-1994. I am not trying to change any rules - it really doesn't matter. I'm just clarifying where my limited experience lies.

No need to get weird about it, anyone can come and see both sides now, which is all good.

As I said, no more responses, at least of substance. Just to let you know, your need to be sarcastic was the root of all of this. If you hadn't wanted this to take the turn that it did, you should have saved it. It wouldn't have been hard, but I understand that your personality type almost requires that you make comments of this nature.

Nuff said.

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 2:54 pm

Peter Parker wrote:
The oils in the human epidermis leave "shadow smudging" on the cover under fluorescent light

Anyway, that's my worthless cents...

I'm of very mixed opinion about the use of flourescent light to detect things which aren't normally visible to the naked eye (OUTSIDE of restoration.)

Yes, yes, I know that MS69 and MS70 are 5x and 10x loop requirements....that's why I'm of mixed opinion.

But...something nags at me that if it's not visible to someone with normal vision.....

eh.

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 3:28 pm

Well, since VK already listed the process, allow me to share some of the analyses:

Whenever describing/quantifying flaws, get rid of descriptive modifiers that are vague and unclear, such as 'very', 'tiny', 'minute', 'large'. These words are vague, as what is 'tiny' to one person, may be 'huge' to someone else. Non-specific modifiers are useless, and actually harm the grading process.

Get into the habit of using exact measurements, whether it is inches with fractions (my preferred) or metric. If someone doesn't understand what 'very' means, they will understand EXACTLY what 1/16" means.

Remember to use a ruler (a scientific ruler is best, as it generally has breakdowns to the 32nd or 64th) and measure the length AND width of any flaws you see. Most creases/stress marks are understood to have just the one dimension of length, but some flaws, like scuffs, have both.

Always, always, always analyze INTERIOR flaws as well. Yes, granted, interior flaws do NOT carry the same weight as cover flaws, but they absolutely count. Books with printer tears, or finger smudges, or a bent corner on interior pages may look FLAWLESS on the outside, but will nail you in the final grade.

Use a loop/magnifying glass. This will enable you to see flaws more clearly for analysis.

Don't waste your time on obviously 9.2 or worse books. Other than page count, a book in, say, 6.5 is easily graded by the eye alone...you don't need to bust out the ruler when the book's already got three 1" creases.

Finally, after you've quantified and qualified the flaws, making sure you write them down so as not to forget each one, do a serious analysis as to what they ultimately grade the book. There's no real mathematical formula for how much/what flaws are precisely allowed in each grade (this is the 'art' part of grading) but the easiest thing to do is to use a process of elimination, whereby you eliminate grades, starting at 10, until you have no more flaws to affect the grade. ANY visible flaws, no matter how minute (1/64" or less)? 9.9 at BEST. Do you have any color breaking spine stress of 1/16" or more? More than likely a 9.4 or worse, unless the book is otherwise flawless. Do you have more than 2 non-color breaking spine stresses of 1/8" or more? No better than 9.6. Do you have a corner blunted 1/32"? No better than 9.8. Do you have a big greasy sloppy joe stain on the back cover? No better than 4.0.

Above all...be HONEST about your assesment of a book, any book, whether it's yours or not. It's perfectly legitimate to come up with a different grade than another person, if you can justify why, but you're not going to get two different people grading a book a grade or more off of each other, unless someone's being dishonest. The 'science' of grading has all but eliminated that scenario.

ckb · Post by **ckb** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 4:44 pm

ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote: It wouldn't have been hard, but I understand that your personality type almost requires that you make comments of this nature.

Nuff said.

I wasn't offended in the least until this. But the drivel above is offensive. Pot. Kettle. Black.

Neurosis1 · Post by **Neurosis1** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 12:11 am

Vault-Keeper
Thanks for the input. I really appreciate the time you took to break everything down. I'm going to reference your list when I send books in next time. ZWH, thanks also for your analysis. Anyone else?

-Chris

depluto · Post by **depluto** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 12:30 am

Great info, fellas!

Vault-Keeper · Post by **Vault-Keeper** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 8:53 am

Thanks for the kind words, everyone!:)

Yeah, it took a few minutes, but I think it was worth posting. I'm honored if any of you use my guidelines. They're strict to the point of being anal, but that's what you have to do when grading High Grade books.

I appreciate Zeph's additional analysis. Three points he's made that I feel the need to emphasize are:

1) Be honest with yourself about even the smallest flaw;

2) Only grade for about a hour at a time. Don't wear yourself out. That's when flaws will get overlooked.

3) Don't go through my strict grading process if you can already determine that the issue is less than Very Fine. Unless it's a rare or key issue, it's not worth your time to send it in to CGC.

I can quickly sight grade up to a Very Fine without the additional scrutiny needed to seperate VF+ to NM to Mint. These are the grades that need the extra inspection.

Also, don't be forgiving of the flaws in an older book. You might think--"well, after all, it's from 1950...", but that doesn't make the flaws disappear & the Grading Guide is only forgiving in this area when it comes to paper whitness.

As a collector & dealer, I've seen comics, magazines, & even newspapers that were kept in a closet for decades, coming out looking like brand new. It is rare, but I've seen it for myself, so I know it's true. I know there are undiscovered treasures out there, because I've found them myself. So don't give up the hunt, & happy grading!---Steve

ckb · Post by **ckb** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 9:00 am

Vault-Keeper wrote:Thanks for the kind words, everyone!:)
Also, don't be forgiving of the flaws in an older book. You might think--"well, after all, it's from 1950...", but that doesn't make the flaws disappear & the Grading Guide is only forgiving in this area when it comes to paper whitness.

Actually, there is a slightly more lenient "Golden Age standard" that CGC uses. They use the same standard on magazines.

But, from what I can gather from the CGC boards, it does pertain mostly to bindery defects, age-related defects (dust shadows and whatnot), and surface wear.

What Steve is saying is still good advice. That 1" crease is stil a 1" crease.

I wish I had the time to follow the procedure outlined by Steve on the next group of 200 books I send in. Instead I'll spend about 1 minute
on each book and let CGC weed out what I miss. And be able to watch the Steelers tomorrow. And next week. And the week after that!

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 10:09 am

ckb wrote:
ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote: It wouldn't have been hard, but I understand that your personality type almost requires that you make comments of this nature.

Nuff said.
I wasn't offended in the least until this. But the drivel above is offensive. Pot. Kettle. Black.

Why don't you then save the unnecessary sarcasm which initiates nonsense like this? Is it that hard?

Captain_Nemo · Post by **Captain_Nemo** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 11:17 am

Vault-Keeper, that was an amazing post. Thank you for taking the time to share your grading guidelines.

woosuh · Post by **woosuh** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:45 am

There's not a need to prescreen? Then why do they HAVE it?
It's like saying why do we look at clothes b4 we buy it.. obvioiusly zeph must have a bad wardrobe.
Maybe to help the avg collector.. duh..omg...let the people do their thing.. if you have the money.......prescreen....9.4 are getting no love but ill buy if the price is right. always looking for deals.. CGC is tough.. even at the conventions.........but carefully was able to get a good deal........even though 220 in grading fees...........managed:
2 solar 10 9.6
magnus 0 9.6
magnus 1 9.6
magnus 12 9.4
xo 9.4
harbinger 9.4
solar 1 9.6
thundercats 1 8.5 DOH!!!!!!! sounds like a good day. .thank ckb for the deals.......
woosuh
sf

soundoftheuniverse · Post by **soundoftheuniverse** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 4:10 pm

This thread is FANTASTIC, one of the best we've had in awhile. Both VK and Zeph's insight on grading is making me eager to buy a blacklight and give it a go.

Can you guys reccommend a good magnifying loop? Or are they all about the same?

CKB and Zeph could you please hug and get over it or something. It's really distracting from the thread. Thx guys

Zeph, you're our post count leader, we gotta hold you to the highest standard. Be good!

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 3:00 am

woosuh wrote:There's not a need to prescreen? Then why do they HAVE it?
It's like saying why do we look at clothes b4 we buy it.. obvioiusly zeph must have a bad wardrobe.

No, you're totally wrong. It's like saying you need someone ELSE to look at your clothes before you buy them (something most husbands take as a matter of course), and even THAT analogy is incredibly poor. You're not BUYING the books, they are ALREADY YOURS (or in your posession), and you're sending them in to get someone ELSE'S opinion on what grades they're in. This has NOTHING analagous with buying clothes. You aren't sending your clothes in to someone ELSE to decide what quality they are. YOU are the one deciding the quality of the clothes before you buy them, which means YOU are PRE-SCREENING your OWN clothes (or your wife is

)...which supports MY whole argument. What a terrible analogy! And then to come to some conclusion about my wardrobe based on that awful analogy...? Wow. What an illogical mess.

I never said there wasn't a need to pre-screen. Get it right. I said 'there's no need to pre-screen if you learn how to do it yourself.

What do you think CGC pre-screeners are? Robots? Machines? Computers?

No. They are human beings, JUST like you and I, who have happened to grade.

So....

If THOSE human beings can learn how to do it....so can everyone but the most slow and dimwitted among us.

If you don't have TIME or the INCLINATION to do it...that's a WHOLE different ball of wax, which I explained quite clearly with my 'changing the oil in my car' example.

The need to pre-screen is for people who (A) don't wish to learn how to do it themselves, (B) don't feel they CAN do it themselves, and/or (C) would rather just pay someone else to do it for them.

Maybe to help the avg collector.. duh..omg...let the people do their thing.. if you have the money.......prescreen....9.4 are getting no love but ill buy if the price is right. always looking for deals.. CGC is tough

So's giving your car a tune up. You learn how to do it, or you pay someone else to. What's the problem here?

No one said one couldn't pre-screen. At what point was anyone stopping anyone else from pre-screening? Quick, let me run down to whoever was thinking of sending books in to pre-screen, I've got to stop them!

.. even at the conventions.........but carefully was able to get a good deal........even though 220 in grading fees...........managed:
2 solar 10 9.6
magnus 0 9.6
magnus 1 9.6
magnus 12 9.4
xo 9.4
harbinger 9.4
solar 1 9.6
thundercats 1 8.5 DOH!!!!!!! sounds like a good day. .thank ckb for the deals.......
woosuh
sf

So you missed something on the Thundercats. Could I have spotted it? Probably. If three CGC graders did, I probably could, too. There's a BIGGGG, obvious, glaring difference between a 9.4 and an 8.5...3/4 of a grade, as a matter of fact.

But other than that, you did fine....so....what's the problem?