Which books stayed true to course?

cjv · Post by **cjv** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 10:40 am

AFter Unity, the following books were being printed.

Magnus, Solar, Harbinger, Rai, Archer and Armstrong, Eternal Warrior, Shadowman, XO Manowar.

Which of these books, in general, do you think stayed relatively true to the pre-Unity storylines? I mean, they migh have had some ups and downs, but overall the characters remained constant, and the plots were generally pretty good.

I would have to say that after Unity, I enjoyed Archer and Armstrong as well as Shadowman the most. I never really got into Rai and the Future Force. Solar just seemed to wander a lot for me, although they did have a couple of good story lines. XO just seemed to be how many ways can we get Aric to fight. Harbinger was interesting, but it didn't have the same sense of urgency that the pre-Unity books had. Eternal Warrior was probably the third favorite after A&A and Shadowman.

Of the POST Unity books (Armorines, Bloodshot, Geomancer, HARD Corp, Ninjak, PSI Lords, 2nd Life of Dr. Mirage, Secret Weapons, Timewalker, Turok, Visitor) BEFORE they actually came out, which did you think would be worthwhile? Where there any that surprised you with their stories/characters? Any that disappointed you?

My takes on each book/story idea.

Armorines - I liked this to start with, I thought it would be an interesting concept. However, I don't remember much about the series - either it was too long ago, or it simply didn't have the much "oomph".

Bloodshot - never got into him too much - I always viewed him as a Punisher clone. I never really gave him a fair shake, probably.

Geomancer - I thought this title was lacking from the start. I liked the idea of a geomancer as a "speaker for the earth", and who could tie a lot of characters together. But when they made him a "super-hero" type, and he had to fight in his own book, that was a bad move, IMO.

HARD Corps - I liked this book pretty much through its entire run. I always thought that surely someone like Harada must have more enemies than just the Harbingers.

Ninjak - never really got into this book, for much of the same reason as Bloodshot. I never really thought the character was that interesting, and sort of thought he was just a reason to draw cool fight scenes. This was one book that I thought really exemplified the "Image-ification" of Valiant - going more for art than for story.

PSI - Lords - I thought this book had promise, but I was really disappointed by its execution. The stories weren't really that involving. I wonder if they focused too much attention on the Valiant Vision thing?

2nd Life of Dr. Mirage - one of the best "new" post Unity books, I thought. Funny storylines, not just drawing people in action poses and fighting.

Secret Weapons - I had misgivings about this book, because it seemed that they were taking the characters and trying to turn them into superheroes. After all, if you have a team of super power characters, what are they? A superhero team. And if you do that, you probably need to start bringing in super villians. And once you do that, you have just another superhero universe, not one that is supposed to be "realistic" or anything.

Timewalker - I was eagerly awaiting this title, and really enjoyed it as well. I think they could have done a lot more with it - looking at the past and future of the Valiant Universe.

Turok - I was not that interested in this book, because I wasn't sure how long the "dinosaur hunter/man out of his time" idea could continue.

Visitor - The "first" real superhero. Once this book came out, I was interested in it, but I was disappointed that they chose to make the Valiant universe suddenly have real superheroes (that are filmed, seen by regular people, etc). I liked things much more when everything was behind the scenes.

Based on what other people have said, I may have given some books not enough "growing on me" time. Like Bloodshot, Turok, maybe Ninjak.

If I were re-doing the Valiant Universe, I would have stuck with these books

Archer and Armstrong (if it could still be a humor book that was well written)
Bloodshot (popular character - maybe I should go back and re-read)
Armorines (a government controlled strikeforce is always nice)
HARD Corp
Harbinger
Solar
Shadowman
Timewalker
XO Manowar
Rai (I liked the idea that someone suggested, making it Rai Tales, and looking at previous Rai's as well)
Magnus
2nd Life of Dr. Mirage (again, a lighter book than some of the others)
Eternal Warrior

Chris

shaxper · Post by **shaxper** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 10:52 am

I think Solar got better after Unity. Phil became easier to relate to as we watched him struggle just to maintain an ordinary life with Gayle.

I haven't read post Unity EW, Bloodshot, or A&A yet. They're on my list to get to.

No one will agree with me on this (and I mean no one), but I think Magnus stayed very true to course. The first issues took the Gold Key story and put a surprising twist on it. As a fan of the Gold Key issues, I was sad to see the original tone not being continued, but respected that Manning had done everything there was to do with it. It was ready for a new edge. Once that new edge got explored as far as it could, another new edge came in the form of the Malev War. No one wanted to see the previous Magnus Era die, but there was nowhere else to go with it. Magnus is torn between man and machine. Okay, we get it. So the Malev War had its ups and downs but, overall, I really enjoyed it. Then that got tired after a while. I think it actually had a little life left in it, but the next era was equally challenging and different. I really liked its potential and would have enjoyed seeing more (though with more emphasis on Magnus and less on Torque and the Rai kids), but Birthquake cut that short. And I really liked what Giffen was setting up too, but that got cut short all too soon. The final issue clearly wasn't what he'd been building to in that story arc.

X-O definately did NOT live up to its Unity potential.

The Rai tales idea is an awesome one. That amazing premise got cut short way too early.

As for the post-Unity issues, I never really knew what to expect from them until I started reading them, and most didn't have much potential to begin with. I still don't understand how Turok lasted for so many issues. I always say that the first few issues of Timewalker blew me away, but I haven't followed through on it. No idea if it lives up to its early potential.

Good questions!

andrew · Post by **andrew** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 12:17 pm

I think I'm the exact opposite of everyone on the board. While I haven't read up to the ends on either, I enjoyed many X-O books and thought Solar (Unity to #40, which I've read) was terrible.

shaxper · Post by **shaxper** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 12:25 pm

For me, X-O really began to lose its charm around the time the mafia first went after him. The characters were just so...unreal and comic-bookie. And mafiosa tend to be less direct, using murder and loud death threats with witnesses present only as a last resort.

Truly though, the charm had been gone for a while. As soon as Aric began behaving just like a normal citizen of the 90s, something was majorly lost. His unique and dated perspectives on the world were the most enjoyable parts of the comic. Most people have grand-parents from "the old country" who immigrated to the US generations ago, yet still maintain their old-world perspectives. Th fact that Aric adapts over the course of a few months is simply exceptional. It would take a lot more than the X-O armor to change a personality that's been shaping itself in one culture for twenty years.

I also really didn't like how far he and Ken grew from each other post Unity. I always prefered Ken as the unlikely best buddy; a sort of empowered Jimmy Olsen with criminal instincts, but good values and loyalty when it really comes down to it.

cjv · Post by **cjv** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 12:48 pm

You know, I didn't think about it previously, but I agree with your analysis about XO - when he was a stranger in our land, that was part of the charm. As soon as he became a corporate leader, trying to take over other companies and worrying aobut his profits, living in a big house, etc, then it lost something.

Chris

Todd Luck · Post by **Todd Luck** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 8:29 pm

I wouldn't say any of the titles went in the same direction they were going to go before Unity, perhaps with the exception of A & A up to issue 12 because Windsor-Smith did them. Valiant became a vastly different company after Jim Shooter left and they took the characters in new directions.

Doesn't mean some of the results weren't enjoyable. I really enjoyed Orstrander's Rai and the Future Force, Shadowman, Eternal Warrior 'til Orstander took over, and Secret Weapons up until they changed the book's direction (which was more like a Valiant Team-up than a team book). I thought the stuff by Vanhook was interesting on Solar and Bloodshoot (who is about as from Punisher as it gets), though the pacing and art made me decide to axe them eventually. There were a few more issues I enjoyed here and there but I was mostly disappointed with the rest of Valiant I read (I dropped most of the line by the time Chaos Effect happened)

dellamorte · Post by **dellamorte** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 8:52 pm

Shadowman
Eternal Warrior
Archer and Armstrong through #12
Harbinger up to #13

DJSpecter · Post by **DJSpecter** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 9:43 pm

(I dropped most of the line by the time Chaos Effect happened)

I know this isn't the right place but I feel compelled to vent. I just re-read the "Chaos Effect" Story line. And I decided that intended or not, it was the "anti-Unity." There was no continuity between the books of the various weeks of Chaos. (aside from X-O-Armorines-HARDCorps) It was unreadable as a crossover, even though that was essentially how it was presented.

Although not everything in Unity has to be read together (example, shadowman) for the most part you could read all 18 books and really understand what they were trying to get at.

If you haven't read Chaos yet, and you are trying to understand continuity. Read only Alpha and Omega, and if you don't understand something specific about a character's change, just read that book.

I came, I saw, I vent.[/quote]

Sector3600 · Post by **Sector3600** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:57 am

After UNITY X-O Manowar was fine up to #25, then it got messed up.

I enjoyed RAI & Magnus the most, since they were the future of the Valiant Universe.

I thought that Eternal Warrior kept on its intended course.

Solar was not all bad, the Solar/Darque/Destoryer story arc was better than the Dr. Eclipse.

Harbinger went along nicely until bringing the Harada/Sting battle in too soon. The Harbinger School kids was okay, but the fact that Sting was the Harbinger was SOOOOO whacked. Harada went into a coma and Sting was captured and brainwashed.>>>

Ninjak was more of a supporting character to EW or Bloodshoot.

Secret Weapons was okay with Stronghold & Livewire, but getting tied to Bloodshot/Ninjak like direction was not for me.

Bloodshot seemed to stay on track.

I also believe that once Jim Shooter left and the publisher tried to profit from the market/speculation, it went too fast and for too long without a UNITY or Rai 0 like direction...

Shakespeare · Post by **Shakespeare** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:29 am

Timewalker seemed to have the most promise...but I didn't like the idea that he was just starting out on his voyage. I guess I like to see characters in their prime, not in infancy. (and even though he was the brother born first, he's lived the shortest amount of time...I'd rather it have been that he's been traveling around for 50,000 years)

Secret Weapon was horrible for the first 9 issues (trying to recreate the Harbinger "we're gonna make it after all" just didn't work). And then the super-team was actaully allright, but not great.

A+A BWS, brilliant, as most everyone thinks.

Ninjak was a bore, but it was just about to get interesting when it got cancelled (a ninja nun?! Cool!)

Hard Corps, great until about #13, good until 22, then about the worst Valiants ever.

I never looked forward to reading Turok but always enjoyed them once I was reading them.

Bloodshot...his search for his past should have lasted a hundred issues, not the, what, seven or so that it took?

I couldn't really care about Shadowman past issue 4.

Harbinger becoming The New Mutants...yawn.

Magnus...enjoyed it for the most part, but didn't need Magnus Jr, in 4020-ish.

A title change could have saved Rai, and lose the gottee.

Todd Luck · Post by **Todd Luck** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:01 pm

DJSpecter wrote:
(I dropped most of the line by the time Chaos Effect happened)
I know this isn't the right place but I feel compelled to vent. I just re-read the "Chaos Effect" Story line. And I decided that intended or not, it was the "anti-Unity." There was no continuity between the books of the various weeks of Chaos. (aside from X-O-Armorines-HARDCorps) It was unreadable as a crossover, even though that was essentially how it was presented.

Although not everything in Unity has to be read together (example, shadowman) for the most part you could read all 18 books and really understand what they were trying to get at.

If you haven't read Chaos yet, and you are trying to understand continuity. Read only Alpha and Omega, and if you don't understand something specific about a character's change, just read that book.

I came, I saw, I vent.

[/quote]

You just described the head scratching session me and best friend had when when we read Chaos Effect. Oh, look it's a crossover...without the crossing over. Abunch of different stories that would've been done anyway, but now with a global power outage and wierd looking skies inserted in them. And it made necromatic energy into this all purpose psuedo-scientific energy which knocked out power, drained Solar's energy, and even formed the Lost Land! I made the loudest groan on Earth on that final panel. It was even louder than the one I gave when the evil Shadowman took Archer & Armstong away saying they were Darque's greatest enemies!

qrnd · Post by **qrnd** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:12 pm

Archer and Armstrong stayed solid until it was canned, in my opinon, and I also enjoyed the Magnus storyline throughout its entire run.

Solar was my favorite book at first, but I didnt like how the book changed, until near the end when I didnt like the book at all.

As for most looked forward to, Turok for me. I was hoping for more of an updated version of the old character rather than have him in the modern era always. Every time he went back to the Lost Land I hoped he would just stay. It became a steady letdown.

And I always thought that XO Unity Special was unneccessary. I would have prefered to see Unity from Turok's perspective, as we didnt get to see much of him during that event.

Todd Luck · Post by **Todd Luck** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:17 pm

Sector3600 wrote:
I thought that Eternal Warrior kept on its intended course.

No argueing over the quality of Eternal Warrior after Shooter's departure (loved the book up until 25) but it wasn't consistant with the first three issues. The transition between Shooter's idea and the one we got for the rest of the series was so smooth, I didn't notice it until a Shooter interview on U2000, when Shooter said he never intended for Gilad to be the Fist and Steal of the Earth. Reading back over EW #1 I couldn't believe I had missed that.

Gilad as the subversive executioner/enforcer of the Geomancer took away the whole "guy who thinks if he goes around and fights for causes he believes in long enough he can wear away injustice" idea. It directly contradicted the scene where Gilad said that every conflict he fought in he thought could be the final battle the Geomancer spoke of and was starting to think the Geomancer was paraniod. You think if the Geomancer sent Gilad into most of his battles he would've been nice enough to let Gilad know why he was fighting:).

Amazing the things you can realize years later.

Shakespeare · Post by **Shakespeare** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:30 pm

Archer and Armstrong stayed solid until it was canned

Really? Archer in a crewcut with a rattail? I say #0-12 rocked hard, #13-14 were fine, #15-16 were readable...but all issues after that made me want to tear up the comic.

S

Sect · Post by **Sect** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:08 pm

Well, I really liked A&A but it didn't last too long and therefore probably had a lower chance of deviating from the course.

If I had to choose, I would say Eternal Warrior, I liked how it was a series of short stores spanning not more than a few comics long.

Shadowman seemed to me one of the best in terms of direction and continuity.

Most of the newer stuff that came later e.g. ninjak, dr. mirage, geomancer, armories, etc. I found a snorefest with the exception of Turok. I really hate Turok but I gave it a read and it turned out okay. Probably it b/c it was more like EW and jumped around with stories.

Lastly, I would say, I hated the x-0, the rai, and the magnus runs.

X-0 had me saying WTF around Birthquake-ish and beyond. With Rai jumping around from O.G. baldie Rai to, Goatee Rai, and then boy-Rai, well it didn't do it for me. Finally, Magnus....i'm not even sure where to start. The Malev war was a snore for me but at least I could comprehend what was going on. Beyond that all i can say is

WTF

Byrneout · Post by **Byrneout** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 6:02 pm

Shadowman, by far, stayed truest to its course. Even during Birthquake, it held on to it's themes of predetermination and of a man driven by the knowledge of his own death.