CGC: Greatest thing to happen to back issues?

DawgPhan · Post by **DawgPhan** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:00 pm

Well I was reading the ole cgc boards when I happened upon a thread were Steve Borock(sp?) proclaims that CGC is the greatest thing to happen to back issues. Just wondering on how you guys thought about this...it isnt really a bash cgc thread, but maybe a what are the other major factors in back issues. I would say that Chuckie has had more influence on back issues than anyone/thing else. Maybe ebay would be up there also...Oh yeah if you dont know...Steve is a grader at CGC and also part of the management I think...

400yrs · Post by **400yrs** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:17 pm

E-bay hands down. CGC may be the greatest thing that ever happened for Borock though. Without e-bay it would be much tougher for sellers to even sell CGC'd books. E-bay supplies the marketplace while CGC helps with buyer confidence. They work hand in hand, but CGC would be a shell of itself without e-bay.

DawgPhan · Post by **DawgPhan** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:32 pm

Yeah ebay is a big one, but I think that Chuckie did a lot to lay the ground work for people buying comics through the mail. Toss in the Church, Mile High 2, and Dallas Stephens collections and he has brough a lot of high grade material to the market. Plus he probably has more back issues than anyone else..

Peter Parker · Post by **Peter Parker** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 pm

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..

how about collector demand guys

No offense, Ebay has without QUESTION given a global market for back issues to prosper, and revive. As for CGC, it has without a doubt added the confidence and ligitimacy to the back issue market it had always struggled with, in a myriad of ways.

However, ultimately its the COLLECTORS that buy and search for these books because of demand...so lets focus on the beauty of the hobby itself...how about them apples

400yrs · Post by **400yrs** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 5:39 am

Demand has almost always been there outside of a few down periods, but the ease of e-bay makes the hobby itself much more easy to pursue.

greg · Post by **greg** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 8:25 am

I think the internet is the key, with Ebay being a big part of the specifics...
Generally, the biggest books aren't sold on Ebay, though, since they
either change hands privately through major national dealers,
or they sell at auction sites like Heritage.
But the internet is the biggest boost to back issue sales in the past 10 years.
(It's strange to think that 10 years ago, most of us didn't use the internet at all,
and few used it to make purchases.)

The concept of professional appraisal of condition is an old one,
with Sotheby's establishing that major items need expert opinions
so auction prices can "be all they can be".
Prices for key issues of comics are at all-time highs,
thanks in part to CGC. Thanks in "other part" to inflation,
which keeps all-time prices coming, year after year.

CGC provides that "expert opinion" outside of the major auction houses,
and they will provide their opinion on any book in your collection...
which means any auction house, or dealer, or collector can buy and sell
without so much fear in the subjective grading abilities of others.

Standards mean as much to comic collecting as they do to weights and measures.
If you only buy a handful of grain at a time, you don't need any
experts to measure a "handful" for you.
But if you plan to invest a large amount of money in grain,
you better be sure about the scales that are being used.

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:58 pm

Well, everyone else already said it, but Borock's wrong.

Without a doubt, the greatest thing to ever happen to back issues is the internet, for sure.

CGC however is, perhaps, the distant THIRD greatest thing to happen to back issues, but realize that, without even thinking about it too long, the SECOND, by FAR, is Robert Overstreet.

And Bob's REAL close to being greater than the 'net, if only in terms of longevity. The net just provides instantaneousness and exposure.

Sorry, but as in any collectibles market, it's the establishment of a (nearly) universally accepted PRICE GUIDE that legitimizes that market, allowing it to gain widespread acceptance as people 'find out what it's worth'. Price guides come...and THEN a cohesive market is established...not the other way around.

In fact, after typing all of this, I'm fairly tempted to put Bob at #1. Love him or hate him, agree with his prices or not (and I don't), what he did was something no one had done with comics before, and without his initial efforts, the hobby would have been farrrrr ::EDIT:: more chaotic for a far greater period of time. (sorry, sometimes I think of other points, and forget to finish ones before them!) ::END EDIT::

Would guides have come out after his? Eventually, of course. But that fact would have changed the whole course of the 'industry'. The fact that another price guide (I believe CBG had on in the mid 80's) didn't come out for nearly 15 YEARS after the first one is testament to the weight and respect that Overstreet was (and still is) given.

Not that I don't give props to the 'net for being the revolution to humanity that it very much is, and not that I don't like what CGC does (protection, protection, protection of high grade Gold and Silver always has, and always will be, my #1 reason for liking CGC), but they just don't compare to the first official comic book price guide.

Comic books don't need to have the net to be sold, indeed. They also don't need to be CGC'd, though it helps tremendously. But, without the price guide, the foundation for establishing a a cohesive back issue market does not exist, and the prices will fluctuate wildly...much like they do with things like....50's household kitsch (very 'in' right now)...or, paintings by masters....or, Playboy back issues (I could be wrong, but I don't think there's a guide...yet.

)

Without a price guide, there's a very real chance that someone could sell a NM Fantasy #15 for $50...because they just have no way to know.

And Bob's was the first, and still is considered the best (a fact with which I DO agree, flawed as it is. Ok, Greg's is better, but his is wayyyy more focused.

)

myron · Post by **myron** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:27 pm

Borock is entitled to his opinion...but we all need to keep in mind he has his own agenda and self in mind...I do like ZWH's take on things on this...

DawgPhan · Post by **DawgPhan** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:57 pm

myron wrote:Borock is entitled to his opinion...but we all need to keep in mind he has his own agenda and self in mind...I do like ZWH's take on things on this...

Sure he is entitled to his opinion, but when he goes on the cgc board and start running his mouth about everyone and how cgc is the greatest thing since sliced bread, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. He needs to remember that not everyone is a big fan of cgc and that many of the best books in the game are not in slabs. Also he is the voice of cgc and his opinions becomes the stance of cgc.

anyway..I think that chuckie has a lot to do with the back issues market. He help define the whole mailorder thing...and to hear him tell it he has saved comics on several occasions..

DawgPhan · Post by **DawgPhan** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:59 pm

Oh and I think that overstreet is great and it does all the things that zeph says it does, but beanie babies had tons of price guides out during their day..I might even argue that the presence of a price guide hurt the beanie baby market.

A guide is good, but it isnt the only thing.. probably why you didnt have it #1

myron · Post by **myron** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 8:07 pm

DawgPhan wrote:
myron wrote:Borock is entitled to his opinion...but we all need to keep in mind he has his own agenda and self in mind...I do like ZWH's take on things on this...
Sure he is entitled to his opinion, but when he goes on the cgc board and start running his mouth about everyone and how cgc is the greatest thing since sliced bread, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. He needs to remember that not everyone is a big fan of cgc and that many of the best books in the game are not in slabs. Also he is the voice of cgc and his opinions becomes the stance of cgc.

anyway..I think that chuckie has a lot to do with the back issues market. He help define the whole mailorder thing...and to hear him tell it he has saved comics on several occasions..

Dawg...it was said at the CGC forum! and while not everyone there is a CGC fan...those that are fans are definitely more verbose than those that aren't...

DawgPhan · Post by **DawgPhan** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 8:15 pm

myron wrote:
DawgPhan wrote:
myron wrote:Borock is entitled to his opinion...but we all need to keep in mind he has his own agenda and self in mind...I do like ZWH's take on things on this...
Sure he is entitled to his opinion, but when he goes on the cgc board and start running his mouth about everyone and how cgc is the greatest thing since sliced bread, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. He needs to remember that not everyone is a big fan of cgc and that many of the best books in the game are not in slabs. Also he is the voice of cgc and his opinions becomes the stance of cgc.

anyway..I think that chuckie has a lot to do with the back issues market. He help define the whole mailorder thing...and to hear him tell it he has saved comics on several occasions..
Dawg...it was said at the CGC forum! and while not everyone there is a CGC fan...those that are fans are definitely more verbose than those that aren't...

Yeah I know where it was said. Part of the reason I think that steve needs to get a publicist or at least someone to tell him to shut up sometimes...he just comes off as petty and arogant...not 2 features I find that attractive in a company...

Hell I havent even mentioned that CGC's product damages comics and has the potenial to damage ever comic that it has ever slabbed...now that doesnt sound like something that would be in the best interest of the company does it. Doesnt the fact that their slab damages comics bring into question every grade on every slabbed comic? Isnt a big part of what cgc does taking the subjectivity outta of gradding? Isnt another big part of what they do protection? Does encasing comics in a product that could potential damage them harm either one of those aspects?

Sure the fans of cgc on the cgc board are the loud majority, but they are not anwhere near the majority in the entire hobby. They like to think that they are, but they aren't...

400yrs · Post by **400yrs** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 8:25 pm

DawgPhan wrote:
Hell I havent even mentioned that CGC's product damages comics and has the potenial to damage ever comic that it has ever slabbed...now that doesnt sound like something that would be in the best interest of the company does it. Doesnt the fact that their slab damages comics bring into question every grade on every slabbed comic? Isnt a big part of what cgc does taking the subjectivity outta of gradding? Isnt another big part of what they do protection? Does encasing comics in a product that could potential damage them harm either one of those aspects?

Although the likelihood of damage is small, it does happen. I bought a slabbed 9.4 X-men 125 which the bottom corner was "caught" in the CGC encasement. The corner was bent up pretty darn good. No way that I would've bought it if I knew. It's a 9.4 after all, but after CGC got through with it the book is more like a 5.0. Think they'd give me my money back that I spent on that book? Hells no, yo!!

depluto · Post by **depluto** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 8:30 pm

CGC is a great thing ... for those who collect CGC comics (insert unnecessary and petulant

here). To me, it's a different category since there are many collectors who don't bother with that stuff.

I go with ZWH's (almost) endorsement of Overstreet.

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:57 pm

DawgPhan wrote:Oh and I think that overstreet is great and it does all the things that zeph says it does, but beanie babies had tons of price guides out during their day..I might even argue that the presence of a price guide hurt the beanie baby market.

A guide is good, but it isnt the only thing.. probably why you didnt have it #1

You forgot the well thought out qualification to my statement:

"...it's the establishment of a (nearly) universally accepted PRICE GUIDE..." (emphasis...and original statement...mine.

)

Not 17 billion price guides, all saying competing (or even the same) things, none considered 'the source' for "prices" (accurate or not...perception is everything.)

Big difference.

There are dozens of COIN price guides...what's the universally accepted one?

RS Yeoman's 'Red Book'.

The are dozens of SPORTS CARDS price guides...what's the univerally accepted one?

Beckett.

There are dozens of comic book price guides...what's the universally accepted one?

Greg Holland's Valiantfans.co...er, Overstreet.

It takes 'the first' or 'the biggest' to ESTABLISH a market..one thing flows from the other, and longevity DOES provide legitimacy.

DawgPhan · Post by **DawgPhan** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:16 pm

400yrs wrote:
DawgPhan wrote:
Hell I havent even mentioned that CGC's product damages comics and has the potenial to damage ever comic that it has ever slabbed...now that doesnt sound like something that would be in the best interest of the company does it. Doesnt the fact that their slab damages comics bring into question every grade on every slabbed comic? Isnt a big part of what cgc does taking the subjectivity outta of gradding? Isnt another big part of what they do protection? Does encasing comics in a product that could potential damage them harm either one of those aspects?
Although the likelihood of damage is small, it does happen. I bought a slabbed 9.4 X-men 125 which the bottom corner was "caught" in the CGC encasement. The corner was bent up pretty darn good. No way that I would've bought it if I knew. It's a 9.4 after all, but after CGC got through with it the book is more like a 5.0. Think they'd give me my money back that I spent on that book? Hells no, yo!!

http://boards.collectors-society.com/sh ... e=0#739067

sure the chances of damage are small, but look at some of the damage that cgc has done to comics...ouch...

400yrs · Post by **400yrs** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:31 pm

DawgPhan wrote: http://boards.collectors-society.com/sh ... e=0#739067

sure the chances of damage are small, but look at some of the damage that cgc has done to comics...ouch...

Nice link. Although my book isn't worth nearly as much as these, the damage on my book is far worse. Wish I had a scanner. The book was misplaced going into the well a good part of the bottom right corner was bent up real nice.