BOD: The Fall of Harbinger - Discussion

[sonicdan]

Loved it! My favorite one so far and they have all been fantastic!

[Brapbrap]

-curtis is the monk keeper and he was doing an experiment with nanomachines and blood at the start, is there a link between the monk and bloodshot? or the monk and rai?
-looks like the bleeding monk is a good guy and while he has misled people it was for good reasons
-nimbus ring? is this built from the vine wreckage belt? is it part of the weird elevators and stuff in ivar? is it linked to floating cities like new japan?
-faith and archer further confirmed
-is this event the reason earth is so ruined in ivar and rai?
-vagabond (or someone who looks like him) is at faith's funeral so the H.A.R.D. Corps from B&THC may come back

apart from those tidbits this is my favourite comic VEI have ever put out. the art was gorgeous, the colors were gorgeous, the story was incredible.

[Michael_Ayer]

I'm not feeling it. It was okay, but it felt disconnected to me.

- Peter apparently stays a ruined 'kid. for a long time
- Torque drops super hero-ing.
- Kris is out too.
- how about a hint at faith, why is she the most popular
- It ignores the rest of the geomancer realm of the world
- I had a hard time following what was happening

I don't know. I read it and thought I could have waited for it to be cheaper.

Art was beautiful though.

[depluto]

A top 5 Valiant book ... I love Josh Dysart. A long time ago I thought Harbinger was the best comic book I had ever read. I think the same thing now (sure, not technically "Harbinger" any more, but you know what I mean).

[BugsySig]

This may be he best single VEI issue to date. It was an amazing story. Sure, there are unanswered questions. It's supposed to be that way. It's a peak into the future; a tease. But so much depth to Harada and Peter's final encounter. Harada redeemed (?) in the end. Peter unable to ascend. It was beautiful.

And am I right to assume the SOS collective are...human? Positrons? Something else all together?

I am curious as to where this fits into the timeline for the launch of New Japan as seen in BoD: Fall of Ninjak. And if it ties Harada into Father, or something if he's something else entirely.

I want to watch Torquehalla and I loved Faith's funeral.

[Keith]

This may be he best single VEI issue to date. It was an amazing story. Sure, there are unanswered questions. It's supposed to be that way. It's a peak into the future; a tease. But so much depth to Harada and Peter's final encounter. Harada redeemed (?) in the end. Peter unable to ascend. It was beautiful.

And am I right to assume the SOS collective are...human? Positrons? Something else all together?

I am curious as to where this fits into the timeline for the launch of New Japan as seen in BoD: Fall of Ninjak. And if it ties Harada into Father, or something if he's something else entirely.

I want to watch Torquehalla and I loved Faith's funeral.

Yeah, Faith's funeral was the most moving part of the whole issue.

So I'm thinking the events of Fall of Ninjak occur prior to Harbinger, maybe with a 50 - 60 year gap between them. Basing this on Ninjak's comments to the Livewire positron being back with Harada. So New Japan is already in orbit, then the Earth gets devastated.

This would also mean that there is likely a remnant of the Harbinger Foundation on Earth in 4001.

[agent_graves]

I absolutely LOVED, that last page. But overall, if I was ranking the BOD one-shots, this issue would currently, be in third place. Faiths fate was heartbreaking, I like her, I'm looking forward to her mini.

[BugsySig]

This may be he best single VEI issue to date. It was an amazing story. Sure, there are unanswered questions. It's supposed to be that way. It's a peak into the future; a tease. But so much depth to Harada and Peter's final encounter. Harada redeemed (?) in the end. Peter unable to ascend. It was beautiful.

And am I right to assume the SOS collective are...human? Positrons? Something else all together?

I am curious as to where this fits into the timeline for the launch of New Japan as seen in BoD: Fall of Ninjak. And if it ties Harada into Father, or something if he's something else entirely.

I want to watch Torquehalla and I loved Faith's funeral.

Yeah, Faith's funeral was the most moving part of the whole issue.

So I'm thinking the events of Fall of Ninjak occur prior to Harbinger, maybe with a 50 - 60 year gap between them. Basing this on Ninjak's comments to the Livewire positron being back with Harada. So New Japan is already in orbit, then the Earth gets devastated.

This would also mean that there is likely a remnant of the Harbinger Foundation on Earth in 4001.

Given the age of Ninjak in his Fall issue, even with an expanded life, it would have to put it before this issue's time.

Of course there is also the possibility the Harada in the Ninjak issue was also a positron like livewire, and not actually Harada.

[Michael_Ayer]

That's one of the things I didn't like. I didn't like how it didn't seem to fit with the others.

[pixierosa]

I loved it. Dysart outdid even his work on Harbinger. There's lots of emotions - humor, sadness, hope. There's a sense of pride in the accomplishments of the Renegades. Resiliency. Even the ending isn't truly an ending, but a possibility. This book was far more hopeful than the other Fall Ofs and very character-centric.

So many big reveals without being splashy.

I love the insights as well, on who we are being made up of our past. Also the unsaid commentary on history not always being correct (the world thinking that Peter and Harada destroyed them).

Someone mentioned Pete being an addict for a long time... there's no mention of when Faith's intervention occurred. I'm thinking it will be soon.

Lots of nuances. Great story.

[hkupo]

I loved it. Dysart outdid even his work on Harbinger. There's lots of emotions - humor, sadness, hope. There's a sense of pride in the accomplishments of the Renegades. Resiliency. Even the ending isn't truly an ending, but a possibility. This book was far more hopeful than the other Fall Ofs and very character-centric.

So many big reveals without being splashy.

I love the insights as well, on who we are being made up of our past. Also the unsaid commentary on history not always being correct (the world thinking that Peter and Harada destroyed them).

Someone mentioned Pete being an addict for a long time... there's no mention of when Faith's intervention occurred. I'm thinking it will be soon.

Lots of nuances. Great story.

After reading this comment, especially the bolded, I realized that Dysart completely captured everything I love about Faith without actually writing her in the story. She gets Peter to clean himself up, she's there for Torque, and the impact her life has on so many. How does this guy fit so much character work in one book and still fill it with an actual plot and story?

[BugsySig]

That's one of the things I didn't like. I didn't like how it didn't seem to fit with the others.

There were still pieces there. One of things in writing all these future issues is leaving enough room for future stories to be told. You don't want to connect all the dots.

And why it was different is why I liked it so much. Of the three Fall of books, this one felt like a complete story. Bloodshot was a survey of the next several thousand years of his life and Ninjak left a lot to be desired in terms of a satisfying death. This issue was just epic. It had character, plot and intrigue all while satisfying the need for future tidbits in the VALIANT Universe.

[Elveen]

How does this guy fit so much character work in one book and still fill it with an actual plot and story?

Unfettered brillance.
Also, Josh does not have a car and gets himself around Venice Beach on his bike. I think that has something to do with it.
He also had an old flip phone as recently as last year.
Different perspectives always shine through.

[bygranddesign]

This may be he best single VEI issue to date. It was an amazing story. Sure, there are unanswered questions. It's supposed to be that way. It's a peak into the future; a tease. But so much depth to Harada and Peter's final encounter. Harada redeemed (?) in the end. Peter unable to ascend. It was beautiful.

And am I right to assume the SOS collective are...human? Positrons? Something else all together?

I am curious as to where this fits into the timeline for the launch of New Japan as seen in BoD: Fall of Ninjak. And if it ties Harada into Father, or something if he's something else entirely.

I want to watch Torquehalla and I loved Faith's funeral.

Yeah, Faith's funeral was the most moving part of the whole issue.

So I'm thinking the events of Fall of Ninjak occur prior to Harbinger, maybe with a 50 - 60 year gap between them. Basing this on Ninjak's comments to the Livewire positron being back with Harada. So New Japan is already in orbit, then the Earth gets devastated.

This would also mean that there is likely a remnant of the Harbinger Foundation on Earth in 4001.

Given the age of Ninjak in his Fall issue, even with an expanded life, it would have to put it before this issue's time.

Of course there is also the possibility the Harada in the Ninjak issue was also a positron like livewire, and not actually Harada.

Yeah, The BOD: Ninjak issue, took place 100 years in the future ... with this BOD: Harbinger issue taking place 200 years in the future.

My guess on Father, based on the Ninjak issue, is that its positron version of Livewire. She is the one that conceived of New Japan (Harada wasn't interested) ... I think she created this idea of "Father" being the leader just to create this idealized (in her mind) traditional version of Japan. But Father is really just positron Livewire perhaps playing homage to her Master Harada.

I thought this issue was awesome by the way.

Every issue of "Fall of.." has been great so far -- But this was the total package.

Loving and caring so much about these characters -- I was both excited and hesitant to read this. But it exceeded my expectations. It was a tricky situation for Dysart -- he honored and stayed true to the characters and stayed true to what I think most readers would have wanted to see from these characters. Peter ... getting his life together and becoming a leader ... and a hero. Faith becoming the inspirational leader and most loved superhero. Kris becoming the renegade politician ... Torque being the media sensation yet still too proud to be seen as vulnerable... The final confrontation of Toyo and Peter ... It was all beautifully conceived and very satisfying ... yet still surprising... and perplexing (in a good way). That was the trick that Dysart was able to pull off.

And Kano's work was breathtaking.

I'm assuming he did all the art and the beautiful colors. Absolutely beautiful work.

[Hasmot]

I'm building my own conspiracy theory brainstorm that Sunlight on Snow is an early stage of Father. This issue had the A.I. with their own sort of freedom/rights or whatnot, the bleeding monk was reborn already bleeding to individuals who will help guide him/her (or most likely experiment and push political agenda on), and Harada and Peter are both now out of the picture. I'm going out on a limb here, but I'm thinking a major *SQUEE* is about to go down very soon after the conclusion here with all of the political bickering and no omega to keep things in order. Leading to the government style of places such as New Japan where humans have lost the right to make decisions because of all of the drama, but the A.I didn't want to kill them all off. Perhaps Father is an associate or descendant of Sunlight on Snow or even a corrupted version. Something to keep order. Ah, I don't know. I like how 4001 is relating more to present day though. It's a lot of fun thinking about.

[jmatt]

Of the three Fall of books, this one felt like a complete story. Bloodshot was a survey of the next several thousand years of his life and Ninjak left a lot to be desired in terms of a satisfying death. This issue was just epic. It had character, plot and intrigue all while satisfying the need for future tidbits in the VALIANT Universe.

This. There was a complete story. I liked the other Fall of Books but this one absolutely shines. Dysart just packs in so much wonderful story and emotion and characterization and conceptualization.

Just so much to digest. Bleeding Monk dead and reborn. The melancholy of everyone on Earth having no idea what transpired, of how hard Pete fought. Harada and Pete making their peace. Harada moving on, not entirely defeated. Seeing the gang old; seeing them young again. Faith and Archer. Faith as a revered superhero. The Foundation. The Nimbus Ring. The Divinity emissaries. Sunlight on Snow nodes.

Wonderful.

[tiredofmyself]

Hmm nobody is surprised at the many-possible-worlds (i.e. full ascension, early deaths, gay lovers, etc)? I know they said stuff shown in Book of Death event will come to pass in the future, but does that mean the ending may be different due to chronology protection cracked in Ivar and the geomancer was sent from the future in Valiant?

[Blood of Heroes]

Good stuff. One of the best books VEI has put out yet. Faith's funereal hit me right in the feels. Dysart seems to have a knack for doing that.

[jmatt]

Hmm nobody is surprised at the many-possible-worlds (i.e. full ascension, early deaths, gay lovers, etc)? I know they said stuff shown in Book of Death event will come to pass in the future, but does that mean the ending may be different due to chronology protection cracked in Ivar and the geomancer was sent from the future in Valiant?

Valiant is certainly laying down a predicate for future Alternities in the VEI universe. Going out of their way to do so, in fact.

[Elveen]

Hmm nobody is surprised at the many-possible-worlds (i.e. full ascension, early deaths, gay lovers, etc)? I know they said stuff shown in Book of Death event will come to pass in the future, but does that mean the ending may be different due to chronology protection cracked in Ivar and the geomancer was sent from the future in Valiant?

Valiant is certainly laying down a predicate for future Alternities in the VEI universe. Going out of their way to do so, in fact.

Valiant Elseworlds What If books?

Yes please!

[BugsySig]

Hmm nobody is surprised at the many-possible-worlds (i.e. full ascension, early deaths, gay lovers, etc)? I know they said stuff shown in Book of Death event will come to pass in the future, but does that mean the ending may be different due to chronology protection cracked in Ivar and the geomancer was sent from the future in Valiant?

Valiant is certainly laying down a predicate for future Alternities in the VEI universe. Going out of their way to do so, in fact.

That was my thought as well.

[Phoenix8008]

Just reread this yesterday, and a thought occurred to me. Harada ascends at the end, and becomes this big, multi-colored field of light. Where have we seen that before? Not the ascension, but the swirling field of lights?? Very much like what Divinity found out in space, if memory serves. I haven't gone back to look at my Divinity issues yet, but I remember it being pretty similar. Not saying that ascended Harada IS what Divinity and his cosmonauts found (timeline is all wrong, of course), but maybe some other ascended being?

[Keith]

Just reread this yesterday, and a thought occurred to me. Harada ascends at the end, and becomes this big, multi-colored field of light. Where have we seen that before? Not the ascension, but the swirling field of lights?? Very much like what Divinity found out in space, if memory serves. I haven't gone back to look at my Divinity issues yet, but I remember it being pretty similar. Not saying that ascended Harada IS what Divinity and his cosmonauts found (timeline is all wrong, of course), but maybe some other ascended being?

Interesting theory.
- An ascended Harada (presumably with some control over space/time) creates Divinity.
- Divinity is then there to be a foil for Harada and his Imperium designs while Peter is off the chessboard.
- The timeline plays out to the point with Divinity being a major influence in the world and where Harada ascends as seen in BoD: TFoH.

Did Harada create his own checkmate to keep him from going overboard and ultimately create the future where he would ascend?

[geocarr]

Just reread this yesterday, and a thought occurred to me. Harada ascends at the end, and becomes this big, multi-colored field of light. Where have we seen that before? Not the ascension, but the swirling field of lights?? Very much like what Divinity found out in space, if memory serves. I haven't gone back to look at my Divinity issues yet, but I remember it being pretty similar. Not saying that ascended Harada IS what Divinity and his cosmonauts found (timeline is all wrong, of course), but maybe some other ascended being?

Interesting theory.
- An ascended Harada (presumably with some control over space/time) creates Divinity.
- Divinity is then there to be a foil for Harada and his Imperium designs while Peter is off the chessboard.
- The timeline plays out to the point with Divinity being a major influence in the world and where Harada ascends as seen in BoD: TFoH.

Did Harada create his own checkmate to keep him from going overboard and ultimately create the future where he would ascend?

Dude, that is mindblowing! I like it!

[Donovan]

Best VEI book.

Ever.

Masterful storytelling.