Gaia and Andromeda (and Bacchus too...)

[ManofTheAtom]

When Kay was tossed into the river to be killed, she had what can be described as a near-death experience in which she communed with "Mother Nature, also known as the Voice of the Earth, [...] the sentient spirit of the planet Earth itself." (as defined by the VALIANT Wiki).

As per the Wikipedia entry for Mother Nature, "The Mycenaean Greek: Ma-ka (transliterated as ma-ga), "Mother Gaia", written in Linear B syllabic script (13th or 12th century BC), is the earliest known instance of the concept of earth as a mother."

Further, as per the Wikipedia entry for Gaia, "In Greek mythology, Gaia (/ˈɡeɪə, ˈɡaɪə/; Ancient Greek: Γαῖα, romanized: Gaîa, a poetic form of Γῆ (Gê), meaning 'land' or 'earth') also spelled Gaea (/ˈdʒiːə/), is the personification of Earth. Gaia is the ancestral mother—sometimes parthenogenic—of all life. She is the mother of Uranus (Sky), with whom she conceived the Titans (themselves parents of many of the Olympian gods), the Cyclopes, and the Giants, as well as of Pontus (Sea), from whose union she bore the primordial sea gods. Her equivalent in the Roman pantheon was Terra."

Here is where it gets interesting for the VEI iteration of the VALIANT Universe.

According to Andromeda, the Greek Gods were a trope of traveling actors that an alien "Creator Being" transformed into Gods.

What does that say about Gaia and her place in the VEI iteration of the Greek pantheon?

If she's one of those actors (like Andromeda and Bacchus), then there could not have been any Geomancers before she existed just a couple of thousand years ago. Or does her existence predate the moment the Creator Being transformed the actors into Gods by millions of years?

Discuss...

[Chiclo]

Are you placing the apotheosis of these actors around 1300 BC? Wouldn't the Anni-Padda brothers pre-date that?

The sea peoples even would probably be before that. Maybe the Bronze Age Collapse of around 1400-ish BC would be a better timeframe?

Switching from Ge to Gaia would be switching from (my Koine Greek is a little rusty here) 3rd? to 2nd? declension. That sort of reduction would be unusual without a similar reduction in meaning.

[ManofTheAtom]

Are you placing the apotheosis of these actors around 1300 BC? Wouldn't the Anni-Padda brothers pre-date that?

The sea peoples even would probably be before that. Maybe the Bronze Age Collapse of around 1400-ish BC would be a better timeframe?

Switching from Ge to Gaia would be switching from (my Koine Greek is a little rusty here) 3rd? to 2nd? declension. That sort of reduction would be unusual without a similar reduction in meaning.

The actors' transformation would likely have to pre-date Greek history for an indeterminate amount of time in order for the Greeks to believe in them, would it not?

[Chiclo]

Are you placing the apotheosis of these actors around 1300 BC? Wouldn't the Anni-Padda brothers pre-date that?

The sea peoples even would probably be before that. Maybe the Bronze Age Collapse of around 1400-ish BC would be a better timeframe?

Switching from Ge to Gaia would be switching from (my Koine Greek is a little rusty here) 3rd? to 2nd? declension. That sort of reduction would be unusual without a similar reduction in meaning.

The actors' transformation would likely have to pre-date Greek history for an indeterminate amount of time in order for the Greeks to believe in them, would it not?

1300 BC would be roughly contemporary with the Trojan war. If it happened. And it would predate the Iliad by 500 years. I’d say there would be little wiggle room but that timeline might be workable.

The Anni-Padda brothers would be the fly in this ointment. The VEI version are the oldest of all the versions, from around 3000 BC. Off the top of my head, I don’t remember if there was a geomancer talking to Gaia or a Sumerian counterpart (Tiamat? Ninhursag? Ki?) depicted in the comics that far back. That would suggest a different genesis for the Gaia.

[ManofTheAtom]

Are you placing the apotheosis of these actors around 1300 BC? Wouldn't the Anni-Padda brothers pre-date that?

The sea peoples even would probably be before that. Maybe the Bronze Age Collapse of around 1400-ish BC would be a better timeframe?

Switching from Ge to Gaia would be switching from (my Koine Greek is a little rusty here) 3rd? to 2nd? declension. That sort of reduction would be unusual without a similar reduction in meaning.

The actors' transformation would likely have to pre-date Greek history for an indeterminate amount of time in order for the Greeks to believe in them, would it not?

1300 BC would be roughly contemporary with the Trojan war. If it happened. And it would predate the Iliad by 500 years. I’d say there would be little wiggle room but that timeline might be workable.

The Anni-Padda brothers would be the fly in this ointment. The VEI version are the oldest of all the versions, from around 3000 BC. Off the top of my head, I don’t remember if there was a geomancer talking to Gaia or a Sumerian counterpart (Tiamat? Ninhursag? Ki?) depicted in the comics that far back. That would suggest a different genesis for the Gaia.

The Geomancers are the ones that brought VEI Gilad back to life I think. I'd have to check which one did it

Edit: I just remembered that the Anni-Padda's mother is the first Geomancer introduced in Legends of the Geomancers.

[ManofTheAtom]

I'd forgotten that VEI did in fact introduce the first Geomancer in Legends of the Geomancer, Anni, the immortal's mother.

She became Geomancer a few decades before the events of Archer & Armstrong #0 detailing the fall of Ur. Presumably, then, the Creator Aliens transformed the actor/actress that became Gaia some indeterminable time before that.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/valia ... 813165743

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/valia ... 0813165747

[Chiclo]

You said in the first post “if Gaia was one of the actors…”

So you are assuming that she was one of the actors, rather than an older, pre-existant embodiment of nature? It feels more likely that she has a different origin than the Greek gods. Was this entity ever called Gaia? Is there any identification with this, at best, minor side character in the mythology? Gaia was not Mother Nature; rather Gaia was the land (and maybe the sea?) who got raped by the sky. Uranus. Gaia was not associated with plants, animals, fertility, food chains, that kind of thing that Mother Nature generally.

[ManofTheAtom]

You said in the first post “if Gaia was one of the actors…”

So you are assuming that she was one of the actors, rather than an older, pre-existant embodiment of nature? It feels more likely that she has a different origin than the Greek gods. Was this entity ever called Gaia? Is there any identification with this, at best, minor side character in the mythology? Gaia was not Mother Nature; rather Gaia was the land (and maybe the sea?) who got raped by the sky. Uranus. Gaia was not associated with plants, animals, fertility, food chains, that kind of thing that Mother Nature generally.

She is called Mother Nature, and, as per the Wikipedia entry for Mother Nature, "The Mycenaean Greek: Ma-ka (transliterated as ma-ga), "Mother Gaia", written in Linear B syllabic script (13th or 12th century BC), is the earliest known instance of the concept of earth as a mother."


As per A&A, all those Gods were actors transformed into Gods by an alien.

[Chiclo]

You said in the first post “if Gaia was one of the actors…”

So you are assuming that she was one of the actors, rather than an older, pre-existant embodiment of nature? It feels more likely that she has a different origin than the Greek gods. Was this entity ever called Gaia? Is there any identification with this, at best, minor side character in the mythology? Gaia was not Mother Nature; rather Gaia was the land (and maybe the sea?) who got raped by the sky. Uranus. Gaia was not associated with plants, animals, fertility, food chains, that kind of thing that Mother Nature generally.

She is called Mother Nature, and, as per the Wikipedia entry for Mother Nature, "The Mycenaean Greek: Ma-ka (transliterated as ma-ga), "Mother Gaia", written in Linear B syllabic script (13th or 12th century BC), is the earliest known instance of the concept of earth as a mother."


As per A&A, all those Gods were actors transformed into Gods by an alien.

Mother Nature is known more for the latter than the former. Does Ma-ka include the nature element as well as the mother?

Do we know enough about Mycenean Greek mythology to know if theirs aligns with traditional Greek mythology? The Myceneans were different from the regular Greeks in a lot of ways. Anything written in Linear B was lost to history for a lot of years. They hadn’t even cracked Linear A, the last I heard.

Gaia was the mother of the titans, as in the bearer of them. And a lot of monsters. Gaia was not the bringer, sustainer, and propogator of plant and animal life. All mother, no nature.

Was Mother Nature explicitly stated to have been Gaia in Greek mythology or have you filled in the gap?

If Mother Nature was Gaia in Greek mythology, is it possible that the Greeks incorporated a pre-existant being into their pantheon? Or she could be pre-existant and interacted with the aharei elohim?

Your explanation could be what happened but by no means the only certain one.

[ManofTheAtom]

You said in the first post “if Gaia was one of the actors…”

So you are assuming that she was one of the actors, rather than an older, pre-existant embodiment of nature? It feels more likely that she has a different origin than the Greek gods. Was this entity ever called Gaia? Is there any identification with this, at best, minor side character in the mythology? Gaia was not Mother Nature; rather Gaia was the land (and maybe the sea?) who got raped by the sky. Uranus. Gaia was not associated with plants, animals, fertility, food chains, that kind of thing that Mother Nature generally.

She is called Mother Nature, and, as per the Wikipedia entry for Mother Nature, "The Mycenaean Greek: Ma-ka (transliterated as ma-ga), "Mother Gaia", written in Linear B syllabic script (13th or 12th century BC), is the earliest known instance of the concept of earth as a mother."


As per A&A, all those Gods were actors transformed into Gods by an alien.

Mother Nature is known more for the latter than the former. Does Ma-ka include the nature element as well as the mother?

Do we know enough about Mycenean Greek mythology to know if theirs aligns with traditional Greek mythology? The Myceneans were different from the regular Greeks in a lot of ways. Anything written in Linear B was lost to history for a lot of years. They hadn’t even cracked Linear A, the last I heard.

Gaia was the mother of the titans, as in the bearer of them. And a lot of monsters. Gaia was not the bringer, sustainer, and propogator of plant and animal life. All mother, no nature.

Was Mother Nature explicitly stated to have been Gaia in Greek mythology or have you filled in the gap?

If Mother Nature was Gaia in Greek mythology, is it possible that the Greeks incorporated a pre-existant being into their pantheon? Or she could be pre-existant and interacted with the aharei elohim?

Your explanation could be what happened but by no means the only certain one.

I'd argue that the simplest solution would be to say that the Creator Being transformed the actors into Gods BEFORE Anni became a Geomancer, i.e. before Ancient Mesopotamia.

That would mean they existed before Mycenean Greek mythology and even before Roman mythology, witch each subsequent myth changing their names (Gaia = Terra, Zeus = Jupiter, etc).

This way they predated Anni becoming the Geomancer and her children becoming immortal.