Chuck Rozanski on CGC 10.0's

jcdenton · Post by **jcdenton** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:27 pm

Probably the best quote I've heard regarding CGC 10.0's and CGC-mania in general:

"CGC has made its standards so tough that even folks who collect the highest grades of comics can't tell the difference in the grading. Do you remember that I sold a copy of WOLVERINE: THE ORIGIN #1 in 10.0 for $1,000 last year? The punch line to that story is that the buyer wanted to send the book back after buying it because "I can't see where it looks any better than my 9.8 copy of the same book." Well, of course it doesn't. Once you take standards to such ridiculous extremes, then it all becomes fantasy. Face it folks, CGC is making it up. I'll bet you could submit that 10.0 copy mixed in a stack of other high grade issues (9.8's) of the same book, and I'm very dubious if the CGC graders could pick it out of the stack a second time. What's wrong with this picture?"

http://www.milehighcomics.com/tales/cbg35.html

BTW, lots of other great columns by Chuck here: http://www.milehighcomics.com/tales/main.html

mrwoogieman · Post by **mrwoogieman** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:43 pm

The difference is plain to all that care to look: the 9.8 book has a label that has a '9.8' printed on it on the left-hand side, the 10 book has a label that has a '10' printed on the left-hand side.

Did Chuck say if he took the book back? I mean, does a fisherman really throw back a big one and re-bait the hook? Maybe, if he's patient.

jcdenton · Post by **jcdenton** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:04 pm

Here is what he said in the next paragraph:

"In case you're wondering, I didn't take back the WOLVERINE: THE ORIGIN #1. I pointed out to the buyer that his opinion on the grading of the comic was simply irrelevant. The fact that it had that 10.0 label is all that mattered. I promised a 10.0 book, and that's what I delivered. If he had any problems with the grading, he needed to take that up with CGC. What makes this sad is that CGC is, in effect, printing money. By artificially restricting the supply of high-grade books through ridiculous grading standards, they are creating a mania that ultimately benefits only themselves."

mrwoogieman · Post by **mrwoogieman** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:26 pm

jcdenton · Post by **jcdenton** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:37 pm

You have a point, but Rozanski also goes into detail how CGC mania has effectively devalued all non-slabbed books, especially those in lower grades (I don't remember which column it was, you'll have to find it yourself

), which would theoretically hurt all retailers of non-slabbed books, including himself.

So, it's not necessarily a contradiction to say that Rozanski is *A* beneficiary of CGC-mania because he sells CGC'ed books, while also stating that CGC is the only *ultimate* beneficiary (in the long run).

Not that I necessarily agree with that viewpoint, but that is one way to look at it.

Ricomortis · Post by **Ricomortis** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:57 pm

jcdenton wrote:You have a point, but Rozanski also goes into detail how CGC mania has effectively devalued all non-slabbed books, especially those in lower grades (I don't remember which column it was, you'll have to find it yourself ), which would theoretically hurt all retailers of non-slabbed books, including himself.

So, it's not necessarily a contradiction to say that Rozanski is *A* beneficiary of CGC-mania because he sells CGC'ed books, while also stating that CGC is the only *ultimate* beneficiary (in the long run).

Not that I necessarily agree with that viewpoint, but that is one way to look at it.

I don't believe ANY of the BS chuck says. Look at his prices and what HE and HIS company call NM. Hell... half the time they can't even get you the right edition of a comic. Geez.

Ask Greg if there is any difference from his 10 and a 9.8. I know that I can tell a difference. Its not that big of a deal, Chuck just making something out of nothing. IMO.

As for devaluing non-slabbed books, I look at it like this. Ebay devalued those books just as much as CGC. You can buy AMS #1 on almost any given day. Back before CGC I had NEVER EVER even seen one or knew where to buy just one copy. People noe would rather wait for the grade they want, and CGC gives them the confidence it is IN that grade. Besides people on e-bay are now going, " hmmmm.... they list this ASM #66 in NM/M but.... why haven't they got it graded and sell it for a mint?"

Know what I mean?

Rico

Chuck · Post by **Chuck** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:31 pm

It may be hard to tell the difference between an ORIGIN #1 9.8 and a 10.0 becauce the hard stock cover on ORIGIN makes it more durable to handling. However, as Peter Parker has pointed out perfect 10's cannot be touched by human hands. Chances are, most 9.8's have been touched by greasy human hands.

jcdenton · Post by **jcdenton** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:47 pm

My reason for mentioning the "devaluing" of non-slabbed books wasn't to defend CR, but simply to point out that being a beneficiary of something doesn't preclude the possibility that someone else is the ultimate beneficiary in the long run. Which certainly could be the case with CGC's effect on slabbed vs non-slabbed values, although without actual data it's hard to say either way.

As far as being able to tell the difference between 9.8's and 10.0's, it sounds like you're one of the few people who have had the chance to actually compare a 10.0 to a 9.8. If so, more power to you. However, I *am* highly skeptical that if someone were to find several 10.0's and resubmit them to CGC, that all (or even most) would come back as 10.0's (assuming no damage in transit).

Let me put it this way: if you had a CGC 10.0, would you have enough confidence in CGC's grading accuracy and consistency to resubmit, it without CGC knowing the prior grade? Would you even be willing to resubmit it for, say, $100 in cash? $200? Personally, I would say no way. I would have a VERY hard time believing they would come back as anything but 9.8's or 9.9's. Of course if any evidence exists that CGC can consistently grade books accurately at grades 9.8 and higher I'm open to changing my opinion on the subject, but until then I remain extremely skeptical.

Vault-Keeper · Post by **Vault-Keeper** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:53 pm

I think it is a blow to comic values in general when ol' Chucky runs a NON-STOP sale of 50-84% off just about everything on a weekly basis. Ever since I've been receiving Mile High's weekly newsletter, he has ALWAYS been running a sale, which over time is going to hurt the market. He always writes about jumping around the country to different cons, where dealers are lined up to sell Chuck their books at wholesale prices. It's no wonder that the dealers all line up to sell, since Chuck's weekly sales have all but prevented the average dealer to turn a profit, or even stay in business. The sales will end when he's bought everyone's good books, & becomes a monopoly.---Steve

jcdenton · Post by **jcdenton** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:54 pm

Chuck wrote:...perfect 10's cannot be touched by human hands.

Unless CGC graders use electron microscopes for grading I do not see how this can be possible. If you were to modify that statement by saying "Touching a comic with human hands that results in a transfer of oils that is visible to the human eye prevents a book from achieving a 10.0 grade", I would agree with that completely. But to say a 10.0 absolutely "cannot be touched by human hands"? I would say that seriously stretches the realm of believability.

jcdenton · Post by **jcdenton** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:05 pm

I think it is a blow to comic values in general when ol' Chucky runs a NON-STOP sale of 50-84% off just about everything on a weekly basis.

Yeah, I almost have to laugh every time I see that. And just think--Jim Shooter wanted to hire Chuck Rozanski to run his Marketing Department. Every issue would have had a $10 cover price, but they'd all be 80% off.

ckb · Post by **ckb** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:09 pm

As far as CGC being the only long term benficiary - well, Duh.

I agree in a way. You can compare CGC to the stock exchange. The traders and the exchange itself makes money independent of the value of the securities they sell. CGC is in the same position. The broker cannot lose unless trading halts.

Of course, collectors are the real beneficiary if for nothing else than some sort of piece of mind, long and short term.

They are open for criticism in two main areas:

1. They charge more based on the market value of the item. This practice should probably be abandoned except on the very high end.

2. Their standards are unpublished. When Chuck says they are "making it up" over 9.8....well, it's hard to argue when there's nothing in writing stating the difference. Worse - no one can check their work! I can't get a valid opinion from anyone else since no one else knows what the standards are.

In other articles Chuck is much more pro-CGC. He rightly recognizes that the online age demanded such a service. I think the article in question is purely aimed at the ultra high-grade mentality. Everything he says about the 'devaluing' of existing collections in right on, and he backs it up with quotes from the 1992 Overstreet grading standard. Cover detached at one staple in VF? You better believe it.

He backs it up even further by pointing to his own sucess in ignoring the Overstreet guide. The fact is, though, that people will pay for convenience. The premium he gets is for that - not the books themselves. Not sure he really gets that part.

Vault-Keeper · Post by **Vault-Keeper** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:10 pm

jcdenton wrote:
I think it is a blow to comic values in general when ol' Chucky runs a NON-STOP sale of 50-84% off just about everything on a weekly basis.
Yeah, I almost have to laugh every time I see that. And just think--Jim Shooter wanted to hire Chuck Rozanski to run his Marketing Department. Every issue would have had a $10 cover price, but they'd all be 80% off.

Sad but true!

PS---Just what is your avatar supposed to be?

jcdenton · Post by **jcdenton** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:12 pm

PS---Just what is your avatar supposed to be?

A top-down view of this drawing, courtesy of Rob Liefeld:

Vault-Keeper · Post by **Vault-Keeper** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:18 pm

jcdenton wrote:
PS---Just what is your avatar supposed to be?
A top-down view of this drawing, courtesy of Rob Liefeld:

OK.....but why is he spinning?

PS---will you look at the rack Cap is sporting!? Good God! He's got to be packing 44DD's!

ckb · Post by **ckb** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:23 pm

Chuck has turned his pricing system into a marketing hype bonanza with these sales. It actually makes sense though when you examine it.

Chuck prices books at a base price that assume he only has one copy of that book for sale. It may even be broken down to one book in each of the 5 grades he uses.

His goal is to have every comic book ever printed for sale in each of 5 grades. No kidding. He has stated this. But thinking big has got him to where he is.

Given his goal, he is not really too eager to sell books he does not have a lot of. So they get priced to the moon. When he has more inventory, they come back down to reality. Now, given the realities of his business (meaning cashflow, expenses, etc....he employs like 20 people full time!) he really cannot afford to sit on stuff that can be moved easily, no matter what his long term dreamer goals are or how many of them he has. So, he has these 'sales' to adjust the prices closer to reality.

It plays like a used car dealer, but it's not that bad.

I find it hard to be critical of Chuck for buying so much. He is probably keeping dealers all over the country in business.

Vault-Keeper wrote:I think it is a blow to comic values in general when ol' Chucky runs a NON-STOP sale of 50-84% off just about everything on a weekly basis. Ever since I've been receiving Mile High's weekly newsletter, he has ALWAYS been running a sale, which over time is going to hurt the market. He always writes about jumping around the country to different cons, where dealers are lined up to sell Chuck their books at wholesale prices. It's no wonder that the dealers all line up to sell, since Chuck's weekly sales have all but prevented the average dealer to turn a profit, or even stay in business. The sales will end when he's bought everyone's good books, & becomes a monopoly.---Steve

jcdenton · Post by **jcdenton** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:24 pm

OK.....but why is he spinning?

Hmmm... never thought about that. Maybe it's from the imbalance in gravitational force that one pec is exerting on the other. Although I guess that would make him spin the other way.

jcdenton · Post by **jcdenton** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:34 pm

Pretty much agree with everything ckb said above. MHC's "pricing formulas" do produce some bizarre prices, especially when it comes to books with multiple printings. Sometimes you'll see 5th printings more expensive than 2nd printings, which are more expensive than 1st printings, etc. Or on some occasions unbagged issues will cost more than bagged issues.

slym2none · Post by **slym2none** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 5:54 pm

jcdenton wrote:
PS---Just what is your avatar supposed to be?
A top-down view of this drawing, courtesy of Rob Liefeld:

I have ALWAYS wanted to ask this very question, but for some reason never did! Thanks to both of you, I now know the answer.

-slym

400yrs · Post by **400yrs** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:28 pm

I might actually read his thoughts on CGC if he teaches ALL of his staff the difference between a Fine and NM book. With the broad grades they use, you'd fiigure they'd at least be close on every book. I've received G books called NM and VF/NM books called F.

mrwoogieman · Post by **mrwoogieman** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:03 pm

400yrs · Post by **400yrs** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:29 pm

mrwoogieman wrote:Chuck may be upset that his grading of a book does not allay those uncertainties in the same manner as CGC's grading of the same book.

That's exactly what crossed my mind when I read that first paragraph.

Valiant OCD · Post by **Valiant OCD** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:44 pm

jcdenton wrote:
PS---Just what is your avatar supposed to be?
A top-down view of this drawing, courtesy of Rob Liefeld:

I always thought that was one of those wierd charcters from the Beatle's Yellow Submarine movie!!!! Or a "green meany" or something like it!!!!
Man you must really dislike Liefelds work...

mrwoogieman · Post by **mrwoogieman** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:56 pm

Valiant OCD wrote:
jcdenton wrote:
PS---Just what is your avatar supposed to be?
A top-down view of this drawing, courtesy of Rob Liefeld:

I always thought that was one of those wierd charcters from the Beatle's Yellow Submarine movie!!!! Or a "green meany" or something like it!!!!
Man you must really dislike Liefelds work...

What's not to dislike?

Schmakt · Post by **Schmakt** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:32 pm

I wasn't a CGC fan at first either... I'm still not totally into it, but I just got my first few CGC's from CKB, and I'm pretty excited to have them... really "NM" books. However, I only bought books of which I already had copies. (damned fine copies, I might add!) I can't see myself buying a CGC book that I can't flip through. That would suck.

As a coralary (sp???) to that... and in regards to the pricing of raw books, high grade slabbed books would, seemingly, make low grade copies of the books more desireable than they were before CGC. Before, you could buy a high grade copy and at least still read it... now, with CGC, you can't really do that. It seems that dealers are often selling high grade slabbed books with lower grade "reader's copies"... which is something that I do really dig.

At least lower grade books (especially older books) now have a much wider market. In the latest Overstreet, one of the columns in the front had someone mentioning the fact that they have seen their stock of low-grade Silver Age keys being depleted more rapidly than in the past. I don't particularly see the price going up on these low grade books, but it does seem to have created a larger market for them.

And in case I missed my point... I wouldn't have bought those slabbed books had I not already owned copies that I could touch and look at and read.

I had another point, but I forgot it... plus it's time to go home. stupid work.

EDIT: Oh yeah... it was in regards to MHC grading... I just wanted to *SQUEE*... I will never buy rare "VF" or better books from MHC again... Got Iron Man 1 & 2 in VF from them, but there's no way they'd get F or better. Recently got a Magnus 64 in "NM" with a 3" cut on the cover. CGC is making Chuck's life harder by giving some pretty clear examples of truly "NM" or "VF". Even if grading standards have gotten tougher, as CKB mentioned, selling books as a certain grade when they are nowhere near what CGC would grade them is becoming more difficult and detrimental to sellers.

EDIT 2: AND... I don't see any problem with tightening up the grading scale. If a NM today is harder to attain than a NM 10 years ago, I'm fine with that. If, however, the grading scale changes, it seems only logical that the prices for books in grade X should also be adjusted. (VF books today should be worth more, not counting normal price increases, than they would have been 10 years ago.)